Nuneham Viaduct: what alternative provision could be provided?

[A0wen]

Only you would seriously propose, when a route has lost half its service, to remove the other half because people at stations which have two other trains per hour (minimum) might have to stand if they get on those ones or choose the other two. This utterly beggars belief.

*They are already having to stand* - that's before you try to force all of Oxford's passengers onto their services.

I fail to see why screwing up Princes Risborough and High Wycombe's services is acceptable, whereas putting Oxford passengers onto a coach for 30 minutes to Didcot and then having 8 or 12 car 387s running which guarantees them a seat isn't.

Just in case you hadn't looked - Wycombe's usage isn't exactly insignificant - pre Covid it was handling 3m passengers, add on Haddenham & Thame a further 1m and Bicester another 3m over its two stations and you're looking at the same number of passengers you see through Milton Keynes Central. With a much, much lower level of service.

 

[Falcon1200]

Well - there's a start. Anyone with a GW only ticket doesn't get on the train. Simple.

How can that be prevented, even for passengers with GW-only Advance tickets? Short of taking both sets of barriers at Oxford out of use, manually checking every single ticket and denying those with forbidden tickets access to the platform?

but I fail to see why places like Princes Risborough or High Wycombe, who already have busy trains, should see them rendered unusable due to overcrowding just to keep Oxford moving.

Those stations have other services, and Oxford/London is a major traffic flow for the railway.

Maybe that's the answer then - stop them short at Oxford Parkway.

Now this is getting silly.

I have booked a GWR Advance ticket from Oxford to Paddington in May for my 92-year old Mother, and if as seems likely the closure is ongoing then we will most certainly be travelling via Chiltern; It's enough hassle already getting to Oxford station without messing people around even more. Apologies in advance to the citizens of Princes Risborough and High Wycombe for occupying their seats!

 

[A0wen]

I have booked a GWR Advance ticket from Oxford to Paddington in May for my 92-year old Mother, and if as seems likely the closure is ongoing then we will most certainly be travelling via Chiltern; It's enough hassle already getting to Oxford station without messing people around even more. Apologies in advance to the citizens of Princes Risborough and High Wycombe for occupying their seats!

And you're going to end up at Marylebone, so still have to get to Paddington.

Surely it would be easier and guarantee you a seat to use the RRB to Didcot (30 mins) then a guaranteed connection from Didcot to Paddington with almost certainty of a seat on an 8 car 387 compared to an, at best 4 car 165 ?

 

[cactustwirly]

Surely Chiltern can help by increasing the use of 68s to free up some 168s to use to Oxford?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

In the past , Oxonians (sic) have driven to Haddenham and Thame Parkway and picked up services from there (pre Chiltern running to Oxford) , when the GW route was not available - not a bad drive at all ,and I suspect some may have been doing so.


Anyway , observation today when going through Didcot - coming back from Bristol , seemed to be just one bus waiting for business. (of course , there may have been more there)

 

[JonathanH]

Surely Chiltern can help by increasing the use of 68s to free up some 168s to use to Oxford?

It has been pointed out upthread that that can't happen, due to limits on class 68 use at Marylebone. Just as they can't use class 68s to run Oxford services, they wouldn't be use them more intensively on Birmingham services, as they don't run a lot of trains that don't serve Marylebone.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...vision-could-be-provided.246461/#post-6154775

 

[Bletchleyite]

And you're going to end up at Marylebone, so still have to get to Paddington.

Surely it would be easier and guarantee you a seat to use the RRB to Didcot (30 mins) then a guaranteed connection from Didcot to Paddington with almost certainty of a seat on an 8 car 387 compared to an, at best 4 car 165 ?

Who on earth is going to Paddington? It's in the sticks. Central London is the destination.

OK, a very small number of people book cheap hotels there. Everyone else not.

It has been pointed out upthread that that can't happen, due to limits on class 68 use at Marylebone. Just as they can't use class 68s to run Oxford services, they wouldn't be use them more intensively on Birmingham services, as they don't run a lot of trains that don't serve Marylebone.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...vision-could-be-provided.246461/#post-6154775

68s can run to Oxford, though as you say it'd have to be instead of Brum. Fairly sure some do in the current timetable, or if not they definitely did in the previous one.

 

[JonathanH]

68s can run to Oxford

Yes, although the longer formations mean that they have to use the through platforms and run on to Hinksey to reverse.

However, that isn't the issue that the previous poster indicated to be stopping them being used more intensively. Instead, it is that they can only run a certain number of class 68 hauled services out of Marylebone.

 

[Trainbike46]

Yes, although the longer formations mean that they have to use the through platforms and run on to Hinksey to reverse.

However, that isn't the issue that the previous poster indicated to be stopping them being used more intensively. Instead, it is that they can only run a certain number of class 68 hauled services out of Marylebone.

did westminster city council manage to get some ridiculous restriction imposed?

 

[87015]

did westminster city council manage to get some ridiculous restriction imposed?

No, there is no such restriction for STP operation at least. They can go Oxford and spin in platforms but Hinksley route knowledge has been written off, presuming some guards retain Oxford station

 

[JonathanH]

No, there is no such restriction for STP operation at least.

Would it not be more about the fear of more restrictions being introduced, even if there aren't any actual restrictions at present?

 

[87015]

Would it not be more about the fear of more restrictions being introduced, even if there aren't any actual restrictions at present?

Doubt it, given they are cleaner on emissions and get thrown out all of Easter. its the new green fuel thats driven the new diagrams.

 

[WAO]

Stena line still have train ferries, I believe. One could perhaps span the river, without having to sail!

Why was such a critical bridge allowed to deteriorate so?

WAO

 

[yorksrob]

It has been pointed out upthread that that can't happen, due to limits on class 68 use at Marylebone. Just as they can't use class 68s to run Oxford services, they wouldn't be use them more intensively on Birmingham services, as they don't run a lot of trains that don't serve Marylebone.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...vision-could-be-provided.246461/#post-6154775

Out of interest, is this some sort of by-law that could perhaps be relaxed eith the right sort of intervention ?

 

[A0wen]

Who on earth is going to Paddington? It's in the sticks. Central London is the destination.

Paddington and Marylebone are 15 minutes walk (about 0.7 mile) apart.

Marylebone is no more "Central London" than Paddington and has inferior onward connections only having the Bakerloo line, whereas Paddington has the Circle, H&C, Bakerloo and Elizabeth lines - vastly better connectivity.

Paddington is closer to Hyde Park and Park Lane and Mayfair than Marylebone.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Paddington and Marylebone are 15 minutes walk (about 0.7 mile) apart.

Marylebone is no more "Central London" than Paddington and has inferior onward connections only having the Bakerloo line, whereas Paddington has the Circle, H&C, Bakerloo and Elizabeth lines - vastly better connectivity.

Paddington is closer to Hyde Park and Park Lane and Mayfair than Marylebone.

In defence of the Paddington area , it has seen considerable "regeneration" over the last 10-20 years , particularly around the now trendy Paddington basin , to add to now much better connectivity from the very busy Elizabeth line.

Previous views of a tatty hinterland , made up of down market "bed and breakfasts" and and an "interesting" night life have long gone. As mentioned Hyde Park and Mayfair are an easy walk away. A pleasant walk even.

 

[Mikey C]

Out of interest, is this some sort of by-law that could perhaps be relaxed eith the right sort of intervention ?

These are very specific circumstances, I'd be amazed if a temporary dispensation couldn't be made.

Indeed if the locals next to Marylebone Station have second homes in the Cotswolds they will be directly affected by the lack of trains between London and Oxford

 

[SynthD]

If people prefer standing on a train via Chiltern rather than sitting on the rail replacement bus, is this really the railway's concern?

It may be, while the WCML is closed for engineering. I’m considering not travelling at Easter on Chiltern, my preferred choice, because there’s no quick/rail-only backup route.

 

[D6130]

Indeed if the locals next to Marylebone Station have second homes in the Cotswolds they will be directly affected by the lack of trains between London and Oxford

From my recollections of working into and out of Marylebone in the late '80s/early '90s, the majority of properties overlooking the station throat and erstwhile diesel depot are blocks of council flats....ergo probably no second homes in the Cotswolds.

 

[Brubulus]

Chiltern should introduce an emergency timetable with extensions dropped and service patterns simplified. 4tph Oxford and 2tph Brum along with 2tph on both Aylesbury via Amersham and High Wycombe/Aylesbury. There are 4 possible Cl68 diagrams and given there is a spare of everything, it should be possible for these to be consistently avaliable. By dedicating these and the 3 car 168s to Birmingham, it can be run at 2tph with a 2 hour journey time and with 6 coaches. There are then 9 possible 6 car 168 diagrams for Oxford with 2X2 165s to fill in on those services. You can then run Aylesbury via Amersham with 5 3+2 165 diagrams. You've then got 6 3x2 car units to run local services plus put a 2 car on a High Wycombe - Aylesbury shuttle. Though hearing about how many 165s Chiltern have cannibalised for spares, it might be hard to get this many units operational.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Chiltern should introduce an emergency timetable with extensions dropped and service patterns simplified. 4tph Oxford and 2tph Brum along with 2tph on both Aylesbury via Amersham and High Wycombe/Aylesbury. There are 4 possible Cl68 diagrams and given there is a spare of everything, it should be possible for these to be consistently avaliable. By dedicating these and the 3 car 168s to Birmingham, it can be run at 2tph with a 2 hour journey time and with 6 coaches. There are then 9 possible 6 car 168 diagrams for Oxford with 2X2 165s to fill in on those services. You can then run Aylesbury via Amersham with 5 3+2 165 diagrams. You've then got 6 3x2 car units to run local services plus put a 2 car on a High Wycombe - Aylesbury shuttle. Though hearing about how many 165s Chiltern have cannibalised for spares, it might be hard to get this many units operational.

Where do all the traincrew including guards for this massively increased number of cl68 workings come from at the drop of a hat?

 

[Falcon1200]

And you're going to end up at Marylebone, so still have to get to Paddington.

Paddington, nor indeed London, is not our final destination.

 

[zwk500]

For all the people saying 'tear the plan up and start again' - what happens to all the other planning the planners would usually be doing while they're planning the emergency plan? You'll have Chiltern timetable, crew and stock diagrams and NR timetabling as well as some Engjneering access planners needed to review the Chiltern route plan.

 

[The Planner]

For all the people saying 'tear the plan up and start again' - what happens to all the other planning the planners would usually be doing while they're planning the emergency plan? You'll have Chiltern timetable, crew and stock diagrams and NR timetabling as well as some Engjneering access planners needed to review the Chiltern route plan.

Details, as it hasnt already burnt out people during the strikes..

 

[sammyg901]

Looks like a good showing from Chiltern today, plenty of cl68 workings , half hourly Birminghams with up to 8 carriages, Oxfords 5 or 6 carriages

 

[A0wen]

Paddington, nor indeed London, is not our final destination.

In which case, Paddington with its better connectivity is a better place to arrive unless you happen to be heading for Amersham.

So why, given you're travelling with a 92 year old would you try to shoehorn yourself on what is going to be an overcrowded Chiltern service, rather than have a guaranteed seat on an RRB and an almost certainty of a seat from Didcot.

On the grounds you've got to get to Oxford station, why not investigate how to get to Didcot instead ?

If it's simply that you want to travel by Chiltern to get the route mileage, then travelling on diversion with a 92 year old seems an odd time to choose that.

If it's because you don't want to travel on a bus, again given who you're travelling with, I'd have thought their comfort was paramount, in which case an RRB which won't be overcrowded (because private hire coaches can't be overfilled) and a longer train with far more seats would be a much more sensible choice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looks like a good showing from Chiltern today, plenty of cl68 workings , half hourly Birminghams with up to 8 carriages, Oxfords 5 or 6 carriages

I do love it when things naysayers on here claim are impossible happen. Well done to Chiltern.

In which case, Paddington with its better connectivity is a better place to arrive unless you happen to be heading for Amersham.

So why, given you're travelling with a 92 year old would you try to shoehorn yourself on what is going to be an overcrowded Chiltern service, rather than have a guaranteed seat on an RRB and an almost certainty of a seat from Didcot.

On the grounds you've got to get to Oxford station, why not investigate how to get to Didcot instead ?

If it's simply that you want to travel by Chiltern to get the route mileage, then travelling on diversion with a 92 year old seems an odd time to choose that.

If it's because you don't want to travel on a bus, again given who you're travelling with, I'd have thought their comfort was paramount, in which case an RRB which won't be overcrowded (because private hire coaches can't be overfilled) and a longer train with far more seats would be a much more sensible choice.

If you get on first at Oxford it isn't going to be overcrowded. That will come later once they have their seats.

 

[yorksrob]

That is very good going !

 

[A0wen]

I do love it when things naysayers on here claim are impossible happen. Well done to Chiltern.

I'd hold your horses - that info isn't substantiated.

This, however, is a screen grab taken just now from Chiltern's own website - the Oxfords are a 6, 5, 3, 5.

The longest Birmingham is a 7 with two 6 and one 5 - not that's much different to normal.

 

[zwk500]

Looks like a good showing from Chiltern today, plenty of cl68 workings , half hourly Birminghams with up to 8 carriages, Oxfords 5 or 6 carriages

I do love it when things naysayers on here claim are impossible happen. Well done to Chiltern.

The strengthening was presumably pre-planned as it would have been required for the WCML block anyway.