NYMR news and updates.

[D Williams]

I'm talking about their websites, not the pros and cons of the two railway lines, both of which I like very much.

And I'm talking about the railways. People don't go on a day out to visit a website.

 

[Halwynd]

And I'm talking about the railways. People don't go on a day out to visit a website.

You'd better have a chat with the NYMR then, because their book online fares policy depends on passengers visiting their website.

 

[bramling]

I'm sure NYMR have reviewed costs and revenues and are confident in what they are doing but it does come with big risks.

Taking two days out of the timetable will lose some passengers, not all will move to other days. A lower frequency and timetable targeted at Whitby makes it look a very expensive railway for what you get.

It feels like they are targeting older couples rather than families, with few options for short distance trips. A Grosmont - Goathland shuttle would help a lot giving a shorter cheaper services for families -kids don't always want a long journey. I wouldn't want to pay what might be £150ish pounds for a family of 4.

Presumably it’s the “mature couples” market that, in the current climate, seems to have the ability and willingness to pay quite high sums for a day out? With the added benefit that seats are not being occupied by children on reduced or even no fares.

The same rationale seems to be being applied elsewhere across the heritage railway sector, for example Ffestiniog.

Not really ideal, but it does pay the bills.

 

[yorkie]

Also I notice they're using the gift aid gift voucher thing, always seems a bit iffy to me.

How do you mean? Virtually every charity in the country uses Gift Aid to maximise donations.

There are separate threads for Gift Aid:

Gift Aid changes could be ahead for charities, and are charities using money appropriately?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/swanage-railway-recruiting-a-chief-executive.275204/page-3#post-7124278 I keep hearing rumblings that gift aid regulations will be reviewed in order to limit the number of organisations jumping on the bandwagon. Whether there is...

www.railforums.co.uk

Is 'Gift Aid' likely to continue?

Is Gift Aid likely to continue under the newly elected UK government, or will it be scrapped? What percentage of travellers on heritage railways help the latter by specifying 'Gift Aid'? It's not something we have in my country.

www.railforums.co.uk

Gift aid fares

As an aside to the gala fares thread, I thought it might be worth explaining gift aid fares. Gift aid is where a charity can claim back tax when taxpayers make a donation to a charity. Although charities can't claim this money for admissions, they can if you give a donation worth 10% more...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[D Mylchreest]

Well, they are chalk and cheese. The K & WVR is a linear museum the NYR has become a conduit to Whitby. The West Somerset has the same problem with attracting families to a long train ride in an age when attention spans are measured in microseconds.

I do think this is unfair. If you go on a long train ride with children, be it on National Rail of heritage you need to take stuff to entertain them. Looking out of the window is fine for the died in the wool rail enthusiast but other humans of all ages soon get bored with that particularly as so much of railways is in cuttings anyway. Not much to look at there.
If heritage railways want to attract families they shouldn't be wanting the longest possible line (something which appeals only to enthusiasts) but attractions at stations (or reasonably adjacent to stations) that will appeal to families and not just kids. I'm thinking of Minehead to Dunster or Keighley to Haworth for example. The NYMR has Pickering, Goathland and Whitby but they're a long way apart to its disadvantage.

 

[31160]

In reference to the WSR I've always thought that this was amongst the best lines in the country because you do actually go somewhere, Minehead that has all the attractions that a seaside town has, namely chippy's pubs promenade stroll etc, you definitely can't say that about all pres lines

 

[D6130]

In reference to the WSR I've always thought that this was amongst the best lines in the country because you do actually go somewhere, Minehead that has all the attractions that a seaside town has, namely chippy's pubs promenade stroll etc, you definitely can't say that about all pres lines

The problem is that the long and interesting (for enthusiasts) lines are the ones which cost the most to operate and maintain....and require the greatest number of volunteers. Not a good combination in the present straitened economic circumstances.

 

[jamdav1012]

Timetable and calendar for the year have been published.

 

[Iskra]

The problem is that the long and interesting (for enthusiasts) lines are the ones which cost the most to operate and maintain....and require the greatest number of volunteers. Not a good combination in the present straitened economic circumstances.

...And by cutting services and raising prices (effectively) you end up making it less accessible/usable and alienating potential customers. It's as likely to lead to a vicious cycle of decline as it is any financial stabilisation for the railway.

 

[industrial060]

I have been reliably informed that the cuts are due to some big problems with the infrastructure, there’s a lot of speed restrictions which are causing problems for the timetable

 

[kje7812]

I have been reliably informed that the cuts are due to some big problems with the infrastructure, there’s a lot of speed restrictions which are causing problems for the timetable

There's a long one between Levisham and Newton Dale halt. It definitely slowing things up in the latter half of last season. Apparently work on that one has been deferred.

 

[Ploughman]

There's a long one between Levisham and Newton Dale halt. It definitely slowing things up in the latter half of last season. Apparently work on that one has been deferred.

Ballast tipping, Regulating and Tamping has been undertaken between 13 1/2 and 14mp's over the last few weeks.
Lifting the track by about 75 - 100mm.
Unsure if any further work is to be done.

 

[kje7812]

Ballast tipping, Regulating and Tamping has been undertaken between 13 1/2 and 14mp's over the last few weeks.
Lifting the track by about 75 - 100mm.
Unsure if any further work is to be done.

Ah thank you for the correction, someone else I know said it hadn't been done yet.

 

[industrial060]

Is there a plan to do anything with the bridges at Goathland where the height difference is causing problems? That would get rid of another restriction. Apparently there’s a problem with no retaining walls which stops anything being done with the ballast but the whole formation needs to be lifted for a big distance

 

[D6130]

IIRC, in NER, LNER and BR days the line - like most secondary lines in the North-East - was laid in shallow cinder ballast. The gradual adoption of modern stone ballasting standards by the NYMR must have caused a lot of bridge, platform and retaining wall headaches for the railway.

 

[michaelh]

My niece and nephews would struggle on a journey longer than Kidderminster to Highley (40 mins). And I still remember a child getting very bored on the South Devon of all railways...
Kids can get bored quickly.

My Grandchildren are okay with Kidderminster to Highley, but become bored and fractious from Kidderminster to Bridgnorth

 

[Belperpete]

...And by cutting services and raising prices (effectively) you end up making it less accessible/usable and alienating potential customers. It's as likely to lead to a vicious cycle of decline as it is any financial stabilisation for the railway.

As long as they don't lose those customers that generate the bulk of the profit. Not every potential customer is a profitable customer.

With massively increased costs, heritage railways are inevitably going to have to concentrate on those things that make a profit, and question those marginal things that risk making a loss.

 

[nanstallon]

...And by cutting services and raising prices (effectively) you end up making it less accessible/usable and alienating potential customers. It's as likely to lead to a vicious cycle of decline as it is any financial stabilisation for the railway.

Very true. Sadly, the British mentality is "oh dear, we are losing customers. We'll have to put the prices up." The same conversation takes place the following year and so on ad infinitum until the business folds. Making the price of a day trip more or less the same as an annual/season ticket is unlikely to attract the casual visitor even if it is good value for the regular visitor (usually the enthusiast market, who were happy to pay for each trip anyway).

 

[D Williams]

What's the problem? All will be well.

Laura Strangeway, CEO of the NYMR, said: “2025 is set to be a momentous year for the NYMR as we join the nation in celebrating Railway 200. Our dedicated team has worked tirelessly to bring together an exciting calendar of events, including the return of beloved galas, iconic locomotives, and fresh experiences designed to engage visitors of all ages. We’re incredibly proud of our heritage and look forward to welcoming everyone to celebrate with us.”

 

[industrial060]

I think she is right. I think this year will be momentous as in having a major significance in future events. There’s a ticketing model which seems unlikely to work, a reduced timetable which is unlikely to lead to more people visiting and this will mark the 5th year of the railway running at a significant loss. Of what I’m hearing about the possibility of some of the infrastructure not lasting the season is true then this could be a year that will go down in history as the year we lost the NYMR. Of course if you believe the boards then everything is fine and this year will be the last year of an operating deficit. I really considered volunteering on the NYMR again until a volunteer on my home railway told me the real state of the situation.

 

[Belperpete]

this will mark the 5th year of the railway running at a significant loss. Of what I’m hearing about the possibility of some of the infrastructure not lasting the season is true then this could be a year that will go down in history as the year we lost the NYMR. Of course if you believe the boards then everything is fine and this year will be the last year of an operating deficit.

If the railway is to have a long term future, then things have to change. It can't carry on losing money indefinitely. It has closed its eyes to economic realities for far too long, holding its breath in the vain hope that everything will somehow all get better if it just carries on as before. It is this kind of foolhardy attitude that has put me off supporting the line.

With the costs of fuel and raw materials having risen significantly, fare rises were inevitable. Likewise concentrating on those services that can be guaranteed to make a surplus makes sense. Services that risk making a loss are a risk to the railway's future.

As a comparison, the Ffestiniog has cut the number of trains it runs compared to pre COVID. But by tailoring its timetable more closely to what the majority want, the trains that it does run have significantly fewer empty seats and so are more profitable. Running more trains may mean you can carry more passengers, but it doesn't necessarily mean more profit.

Finally it looks like the NYMR management have grasped the nettle, and are making the kind of changes needed to secure the railway's long term future.

 

[SeanG]

To me the NYMR seems like the type of line crying out for a heritage DMU to operate the low patronised services at a much cheaper cost. It could be marketed as a "scenic railcar" given that visibility is much better than from a Mk1. This seems to work on the KWVR and would give an accurate representation of a line like this in the 60s.
There are a couple of DMUs lying round but they don't look like they've had any attention for years.

Edit: I think I might have voiced this viewpoint before on here, but I think it's relevant given service reduction/cost cutting is at the forefront again.

It would be interesting to know how much spend "repeat visitors" on the annual tickets brought in, and then it would be known whether it was worthwhile offering this product. I am talking about car parking, food, drink, souvenirs etc on the 2nd, 3rd visit spent by those who would have otherwise perhaps not have visited.
I know that when I had an annual ticket, reach of the 4 of us would spend about £10 a head on teas/bacon sandwiches etc, plus £5 on car parking. However (A) did this apply to everyone or were there many who spend £0 and saw it as a free day out, and (B) would the £45 for 4 people cover the costs of operating the trains ( we would typically do Grosmont - Whitby - Pickering - Grosmont)

However, this data was not collected (it could have been asked for at every purchase -"is this your first time here or are you returning on an annual ticket?") so I'm not sure the NYMR would know.

 

[Iskra]

To me the NYMR seems like the type of line crying out for a heritage DMU to operate the low patronised services at a much cheaper cost. It could be marketed as a "scenic railcar" given that visibility is much better than from a Mk1. This seems to work on the KWVR and would give an accurate representation of a line like this in the 60s.
There are a couple of DMUs lying round but they don't look like they've had any attention for years.

Edit: I think I might have voiced this viewpoint before on here, but I think it's relevant given service reduction/cost cutting is at the forefront again.

The Autocar and coach that the NYMR is running would seem to be an attempt at that kind of offering, without the necessity for a functioning DMU which the railway no longer seems to have. I do agree that getting a DMU into service would seem a sensible priority.

 

[SeanG]

I agree - the auto trailer is a step in the right direction and I hope that it is successful.
Ironically I can see it being a bit too successful with enthusiasts given that it is something different than the standard DMU.

 

[Iskra]

I agree - the auto trailer is a step in the right direction and I hope that it is successful.
Ironically I can see it being a bit too successful with enthusiasts given that it is something different than the standard DMU.

Possibly!

And yes to comment on the bit that you added on to your post above; on my annual pass return visits me and my fellow passenger always paid for parking at Pickering and at least bought a round of coffees at the station tea room.

Where the NYMR will lose out though is that I feel I have now completed everything I need to do on the railway and don’t need to return for a few years (especially at the new price). So even if they had have done the annual pass again, we wouldn’t necessarily have bought it. Thus it is also costing them future revenue as without it ever existing we might have visited once per year instead, which would probably have provided more overall income for the railway.

 

[Belperpete]

Is the auto trailer steam or diesel powered? If steam powered, I suspect that the economics will be border line at best, with the current cost of coal.

 

[Iskra]

Is the auto trailer steam or diesel powered? If steam powered, I suspect that the economics will be border line at best, with the current cost of coal.

It’s not steam powered. Originally they were petrol but the one in question is diesel.

 

[Belperpete]

And yes to comment on the bit that you added on to your post above; on my annual pass return visits me and my fellow passenger always paid for parking at Pickering and at least bought a round of coffees at the station tea room.

Wow, the last of the big spenders.

I seem to recall that parking at Pickering is limited. Taking parking spaces that could have been used by fare paying passengers is unlikely to have done the railway much good.

And I wonder just how much profit the railway gained out of two coffees? Not sure about the current situation, but I seem to recall that at one time the catering was loss making, but justified as necessary to bring in passengers. If this is still the case, your round of coffees could even have cost the railway money!

I wonder just how much the railway actually gained through your "support".

 

[Iskra]

Wow, the last of the big spenders.

I seem to recall that parking at Pickering is limited. Taking parking spaces that could have been used by fare paying passengers is unlikely to have done the railway much good.

And I wonder just how much profit the railway gained out of two coffees? Not sure about the current situation, but I seem to recall that at one time the catering was loss making, but justified as necessary to bring in passengers. If this is still the case, your round of coffees could even have cost the railway money!

I wonder just how much the railway actually gained through your "support".

There’s not really any need for the sarcasm. It’s all additional spend.

There is now plenty of parking at Pickering. The original car park is fairly small but there’s overflow parking too. Presumably this land is already paid for, so it’s money for very little. The profit margin on hot drinks is also strong.

Regardless of your pugnacious view, I suspect the railway appreciated a three figure amount of cash from me over the year.

 

[D6130]

To me the NYMR seems like the type of line crying out for a heritage DMU to operate the low patronised services at a much cheaper cost. It could be marketed as a "scenic railcar" given that visibility is much better than from a Mk1. This seems to work on the KWVR and would give an accurate representation of a line like this in the 60s.
There are a couple of DMUs lying round but they don't look like they've had any attention for years.

That is exactly what they used to do back in the 1970s and early '80s....and very popular they were too in my experience. However, they seem to have abandoned the DMUs for such a long time now that they're probably beyond repair.