Surreytraveller
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I'm sure they are required to sell them by law? Schedule 17 and all that
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online PRV on Cal Sleeper
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Maybe, but they don’t care. Won’t do non-VT seasons either.
Wallsendmag
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The names Avocet
swt class 450
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They should be able to sell them if you go to the London North Western Railway ticket office at London Euston. This ticket office still uses the normal ticketing system so they can sell the full range of tickets and they are usually much more helpful that the VTWC one.
ForTheLoveOf
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The NRCoT, TSA etc. are all contracts. That means failing to abide by the obligations in them is a breach of contract, on the face of it, and not a (criminal) breach of the law.
There may be further implications in terms of breaches of competition or consumer protection law, but on the face of it, it's a matter for the DfT to enforce. Which, from over 20 years of experience, we know they won't.
It's this ridiculous situation that makes it so utterly perverse that, in turn, the passenger breaching the contract of their ticket could well be a criminal matter that is, for many operators, highly likely to be followed up with criminal prosecution. It's almost like a kind of kangaroo Court justice.
Wallsendmag
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Although they'll need a new system by September.
greatkingrat
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According to the Schedule 17 list, the LNWR ticket office at Euston doesn't sell tickets that require reservations.
causton
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Network Rail do not operate the ticket offices themselves.
One is operated by Virgin and one by LNR. The LNR one will more than likely be happy to sell a resrrvation (I was when I was there for a day!) many of the Schedule 17 rules are not very strictly enforced!
theironroad
Established Member
Not just, Euston. It's any virgin trains run ticket office including Glasgow. At least at London kings cross or st pancras are both close by. The alternative ticket offices at Glasgow central will only sell Scottish destinations and queen at temporary ticket office aren't going to be impressed....
The notice in Glasgow central the other day just said they no sell sleeper tickets and gave the phone number for cal sleeper. Not much use to staff as Priv cannot be booked on phone either .
ForTheLoveOf
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Schedule 17 only sets the minimum obligations out. A ticket office that is permitted to be non-impartial can still be impartial, and equally a ticket office whose minimum opening times are 9-5 can still be open 6-9, and a ticket office not obliged to issue reservation is still allowed to do so if they wish. But as you say, enforcement of Schedule 17 is very rare.
Given the prevalence of Oyster/Contactless usage on trains departing from Platforms 8 to 11, I'd imagine the clerks working in the "Suburban" ticket office are happy to have something to do in quieter moments!
RJ
Established Member
That office has its moments, at times the queue can tail right the way up the ramp!
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
I can probably shed some light on why the PRIV function on the Caledonian Sleeper site was removed. As @user1234 says here:
...this was a longstanding oddity.
I run a (fairly large) YouTube channel focusing on air and rail travel, and I often get messages from people who’ve seen a good deal on a fare and want to share it.
In December, I got at least a dozen messages from various enthusiasts out of the blue, saying they were travelling on PRIV codes, sometimes extensively, masking the discount by adding their 16-25 or Disabled railcard to the booking.
Because I work for Network Rail, who keep an eye on what I do outside work and bind me to an ethics policy, I felt duty bound to report this to Caledonian Sleeper (who are basically a customer of NR).
From the messages I was sent it was obvious that a large pool of people were misusing the discount deliberately and repeatedly, evading thousands of pounds worth of fares.
I was also sent messages, and had conversations with at least two people who were actual rail staff and Priv holders who encouraged me to abuse the discount. I know who these people are and where they work, because it says so all over their social media.
These people know who they are and they have spoiled it for everyone, as well as put me in a difficult position. Well done.
...this was a longstanding oddity.
I run a (fairly large) YouTube channel focusing on air and rail travel, and I often get messages from people who’ve seen a good deal on a fare and want to share it.
In December, I got at least a dozen messages from various enthusiasts out of the blue, saying they were travelling on PRIV codes, sometimes extensively, masking the discount by adding their 16-25 or Disabled railcard to the booking.
Because I work for Network Rail, who keep an eye on what I do outside work and bind me to an ethics policy, I felt duty bound to report this to Caledonian Sleeper (who are basically a customer of NR).
From the messages I was sent it was obvious that a large pool of people were misusing the discount deliberately and repeatedly, evading thousands of pounds worth of fares.
I was also sent messages, and had conversations with at least two people who were actual rail staff and Priv holders who encouraged me to abuse the discount. I know who these people are and where they work, because it says so all over their social media.
These people know who they are and they have spoiled it for everyone, as well as put me in a difficult position. Well done.
bb21
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Thanks to the failure of this initiative, online booking facility will likely be a no-go for the industry unless a robust validation mechanism gets implemented, which is most likely to take years.
So yes, thanks to everyone whose collective effort killed this fantastic initiative before it really got properly started. The people who initially leaked the codes must be so proud of themselves now that you lot have done a lot of your colleagues out of convenience and killed a courageous (albeit poorly implemented) initiative. I doubt those people really cared though.
I contacted the operator not long after this facility was introduced following 3-4 trips with no check whatsoever on discount entitlement despite them being printed on the ticket, let alone cases when they were not printed as clearly, pointing out the importance of stepping up revenue protection efforts due to the ease of abuse. All seemed to have fallen on deaf ears it would appear to me. Recounting around 20-25 journeys I made since the facility started, I was asked twice to show my "Railcard", despite clear indication of the discount type on my ticket, and that was all.
A sorry matter of fact is that if you make it easy for people to exploit a discount, in this day and age, words get around fast and people will take advantage. It is hardly news that Many (and I mean that with a capital M) enthusiasts will want to travel for as cheap as possible, preferably even for free. It is almost a no-brainer if they were presented with the opportunity to save hundreds of pounds for increasingly rarer opportunities to travel on something a bit unusual. It should also be plain for everyone to see that a discount code by itself that can be easily leaked by someone with questionable morals is no way to protect revenue.
But hey ho, well done everyone.
So yes, thanks to everyone whose collective effort killed this fantastic initiative before it really got properly started. The people who initially leaked the codes must be so proud of themselves now that you lot have done a lot of your colleagues out of convenience and killed a courageous (albeit poorly implemented) initiative. I doubt those people really cared though.
I contacted the operator not long after this facility was introduced following 3-4 trips with no check whatsoever on discount entitlement despite them being printed on the ticket, let alone cases when they were not printed as clearly, pointing out the importance of stepping up revenue protection efforts due to the ease of abuse. All seemed to have fallen on deaf ears it would appear to me. Recounting around 20-25 journeys I made since the facility started, I was asked twice to show my "Railcard", despite clear indication of the discount type on my ticket, and that was all.
A sorry matter of fact is that if you make it easy for people to exploit a discount, in this day and age, words get around fast and people will take advantage. It is hardly news that Many (and I mean that with a capital M) enthusiasts will want to travel for as cheap as possible, preferably even for free. It is almost a no-brainer if they were presented with the opportunity to save hundreds of pounds for increasingly rarer opportunities to travel on something a bit unusual. It should also be plain for everyone to see that a discount code by itself that can be easily leaked by someone with questionable morals is no way to protect revenue.
But hey ho, well done everyone.
If VTWC don't sell Priv sleeper tickets when they should, and I take Wallsendmag's comment to mean that others will follow soon, where shall we be able to get them? At the moment it looks as though anyone half way down the WCML already has a problem.
There's nothing about it on the RDG website staff travel page.
There's nothing about it on the RDG website staff travel page.
greatkingrat
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No-one "leaked" the codes. The instructions for obtaining the discount have always been publicly accessible on the Rail Staff Travel website.
theironroad
Established Member
From what I've learnt ,vtwc not selling them is that the software they now use doesn't allow them to, it's not a point blank refusal to sell them ,just they can't.
Euston and Glasgow being sleeper originating points is certainly inconvenient as they are both vtwc run.
Hopefully, cal sleeper can find a suitable remedy.
In the couple of exchanges I've had with cal sleeper this week about this, it's fair to say that's seem just as annoyed that this has had to happen but it does sound like there was a unsustainable problem of abuse going on (just as alter ego has helpfully outlined above).
bb21
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I don't think that it is secret knowledge that some people did "leak" the code, as well as it being available to view, the latter probably compounding the impact.
I'm not sure where you have heard that from but they definitely will.
Sam
Wallsendmag
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The Tribute system used by LNR and WMT ceases to be in September so they'll need to move onto something different.
theblackwatch
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I'm not a priv holder but I was aware that it was possible to get a priv discount on Caledonian Sleepers after a friend with priv told me all he needed to do was put in a code (he didn't divulge what it was thuogh before anyone starts ranting). I did say to him, what would there be to stop me getting the discount if I knew the code and his reply was along the lines of probably nothing - I was quite gobsmacked. The industry as a whole needs to come up with a secure system to enable staff to be able to purchase priv tickets both online and at ticket machines. Perhaps the RDG could do something useful?
I don't understand why some sort of semi online booking facility can be made available similar to what you do when you book staff continental travel through International Rail. In that process you fill in an on-line form detailing what trains you want to travel on and you quote your FIP card number when filling out the form. They then call you back and confirm the details and arrange for payment etc and then post out the tickets. That sort of system combined with a proper check of validity at the barrier to the sleeper train would work surely?
Back in the days of Scotrail operating the Sleeper I used to book Priv rate sleeper tickets over the phone through Scotrail Telesales with an option to either collect from station ticket machines or have them posted to me. These come out as normal tickets with the PRIV marker on them, meaning that is obvious for the staff to check the discount entitlement upon checkin; there was no verification over the phone.
Does the new company no longer accept Priv bookings by phone?
I don't think so as CS have tweeted that the only way to do this is now at booking offices.
221129
Established Member
Because that is a ball ache and a half and defeats the purpose of online booking.
But its a darn sight less ball aching than standing in a queue at a booking office though! (assuming you can find one that does)
RJ
Established Member
Surely this farce is a matter of enforcement more than anything?
This isn't a simple pricing error - it's fraudulently minded people consciously using a discount code they know they are not entitled to use, with the intent of hoodwinking ticket inspection staff. I think it would have been more than fair to offer them the choice of paying the fare due before being allowed to board, or being left on the platform at Rannoch where "leaps" often take place or refused entry at Euston.
I do feel a bit bad for CS - they did a good thing, being pioneering for offering the Priv discount online. But they are culpable for making it so easy for people to defraud them. Not because they offered the Priv discount online, but for apparently not testing the website properly to weed out things like this. Though I did think at the time when reading the guide on the RDG website that it was a bit strange how it was stated that usage of the discount would be monitored, as if it was known that it could be abused in a different way than the likes that normal railcard or child tickets can.
For those entitled to Priv, it was a positive development as the point has been made that booking offices aren't exactly known for consistent quality of service, even for basic functions like the sale of tickets. It's pot luck whether the person serving will be able to do it.
This is true and staff there are well within their rights to refer passengers to the Virgin Trains ticket office. When I worked there, I did however excise discretion and sell some tickets requiring reservations.
That's a good show of loyalty. Did Caledonian Sleeper thank you properly for bringing it to their attention?
This isn't a simple pricing error - it's fraudulently minded people consciously using a discount code they know they are not entitled to use, with the intent of hoodwinking ticket inspection staff. I think it would have been more than fair to offer them the choice of paying the fare due before being allowed to board, or being left on the platform at Rannoch where "leaps" often take place or refused entry at Euston.
I do feel a bit bad for CS - they did a good thing, being pioneering for offering the Priv discount online. But they are culpable for making it so easy for people to defraud them. Not because they offered the Priv discount online, but for apparently not testing the website properly to weed out things like this. Though I did think at the time when reading the guide on the RDG website that it was a bit strange how it was stated that usage of the discount would be monitored, as if it was known that it could be abused in a different way than the likes that normal railcard or child tickets can.
For those entitled to Priv, it was a positive development as the point has been made that booking offices aren't exactly known for consistent quality of service, even for basic functions like the sale of tickets. It's pot luck whether the person serving will be able to do it.
This is true and staff there are well within their rights to refer passengers to the Virgin Trains ticket office. When I worked there, I did however excise discretion and sell some tickets requiring reservations.
That's a good show of loyalty. Did Caledonian Sleeper thank you properly for bringing it to their attention?
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It should be possible for qualifying members of staff to register accounts with CS and for the discount code to only work on those registered accounts.
That is how my (non railway) employer operates their online staff discount scheme.
That is how my (non railway) employer operates their online staff discount scheme.
The shame of it is that it is simply because on-train ticket checking has failed. All they had to do was check each one (only a couple of dozen pax per coach, after all) then insist on seeing the discount card that justified the fare. No card? excess the individual up to full fare if they can't show it. An objection? Tough, off you get.
ForTheLoveOf
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The issue was more to do with the fact that it was possible to hide the Priv discount, so that it wouldn't appear on the ticket. The only way of detecting the misuse would then be to look at the price, but given many passengers will be travelling on Advances, whose prices can vary wildly, who's to say what an appropriate price is?
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