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Ordsall Chord etc - what was the actual plan?

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SuperNova

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There is inadequate connectivity between the major conurbations in the north because current TP services completely avoid the Bradford district and the Calder Valley and instead all run through Huddersfield. NPR is intended to address this but it is many years away and changes are needed much sooner.
Just because a train operator doesn't cover that section of track doesn't mean there isn't connectivity. The fact is, the Calder Valley is much slower than the Huddersfield route so those from the North-East, York/Leeds will want the quickest journey over to Greater Manchester/Liverpool - ergo via Huddersfield. Despite that Bradford to Manchester is 50 minutes, which is similar to Leeds to Manchester journey times, so connectivity isn't that inadequate, it just relies on change of train and it's not like Bradford/Halifax have limited journeys per hour. There's a plethora of Bradford to Leeds services (pre-covid of course).

The key thing here is that Manchester is a massive bottleneck that needs unpicking. The Northern Hub wasn't properly installed and that's why there's a new consultation. Until action is properly taken with grade separation/infrastructure then we're in this limbo.
 
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alangla

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A lot of the same principles still apply.

-Stations designed to cope with passenger flows
-Stations that encourage spreading of passengers along the platform
The best solution I’ve seen to quickly getting passengers to stand in the right place is the one at Schipol airport in Amsterdam. There’s a narrow LED screen that runs the length of the platform that shows a life-size image of a horizontal slice of the formation approaching, with the contrasting doors clearly picked out exactly at the spot where they’ll stop. Works reliably for everything from a Sprinter to a double Koploper (and the livery in the image is correct too IIRC!). Given the quality of formation data available these days, driving a system like this should be straightforward, assuming drivers always hit their stopping marks.
 

Dr Hoo

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There used to be the short spur from phillips park junction to Piccadilly, can that be rebuilt so trains can go into platforms 1 and 2?
Rather strangely the line didn't really connect into the low-numbered platforms. It actually crossed the former Great Central lines on the flat to link with the L&NWR lines. (As seen on old track plans.)
 

Watershed

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There used to be the short spur from phillips park junction to Piccadilly, can that be rebuilt so trains can go into platforms 1 and 2?
The viaduct is mostly extant. A short section has been demolished at each end, but not built on. However it's completely overgrown and would probably require near-total replacement to safely carry trains again. Reversing at Ashburys, Guide Bridge or Stalybridge suffices for modern day purposes.
 

Ianno87

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The viaduct is mostly extant. A short section has been demolished at each end, but not built on. However it's completely overgrown and would probably require near-total replacement to safely carry trains again. Reversing at Ashburys, Guide Bridge or Stalybridge suffices for modern day purposes.

The viaduct also sits on the line of where HS2 will go...
 

Jozhua

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DfT has started consultation looking at 3 options to recast services to improve Castlefield performance:

Well, at least they're doing something.
Overall the schemes combined were supposed to provide for 16tph through Castlefield, with 4 tph over the chord but when we remember Castlefield must take 5 TPH off CLC (2 fast, 2 stopper and 1 freight) that already gives us 9 of the 16 to which trains off the Bolton corridor and Chat Moss have to be added, so there was never any prospect of more than 4tph over the chord.

Putting the 2 TPE Liverpool and 2 TPE Airport through Victoria was supposed to make Victoria the main Manchester station for the Leeds direction AND free up capacity in Picc station throat by avoiding the two Airports and one Liverpool (Scarboro) crossing the whole layout. There was also a supposed improved journey time by using Victoria but in reality pre-chord the times from Picc and Vic to Leeds were identical although Liverpool did get a much improved journey time by using the faster route via Chat Moss.

the Chord was never the right solution, even if the other improvements at Picc and Oxford Road had been delivered.
Perhaps. I mean, the Metrolink was supposed to be the "solution".
We also need to start considering spare paths as a virtue. 15/16 should have been built but with no extra services added - a pure resilience improvement.

Only now has this view shifted in the right direction, with the consultation now out on reducing Castlefield services. But we end up in a situation then where the Sandgrounders lose out in favour of Yorkshiremen taking their once-a-year bucket and spade, simply because it would be too embarrassing to mothball it, which is still the action I would favour overall.

(I did say I wouldn't moan :D :D :D)
The problem is, we have to squeeze absolutely everything out of everything. Which is why the network is broken and not resilient.

There's no single solution, there's no quick fix that will resolve everything. We have to be willing to invest in a railway that doesn't just function when the wind is blowing in the right direction.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of demand on Castlefield. People want to connect between trains there. For a while, I was one of those people. (but now I can just walk to the main trainshed ahahahhaa)

I think the ticketing system should accept Metrolink as a transfer through the central zone. That would be a good start. Then I think more people would be confident in getting themselves between Victoria and Piccadilly, especially if they are not familiar with the area.

Unfortunately, I think I agree in that the most sensible solution is likely mothballing the Chord. The only other alternative might be to run an airport shuttle twice an hour to/from Victoria. The shuttle could have a bit more recovery time and less vulnerable to the delays seen on long distance services. Would likely need an extra one/two terminating platforms at Victoria though.
People criticise the Ordsall chord for contributing to the problems on the Manchester rail network, but I blame the decision by the government to not complete the Northern Hub and fully electrify the trans pennine line.
Yeah, completing Northern Hub would make it considerably less of a mess.
Electrifying the Transpennine line would have made no difference to the problems through Manchester. What was needed was the four-tracking of Castlefield.
It all makes some difference - electrification would reduce journey times and increase wiggle room in the timetable.
And no crew changes. And no unreliable rolling stock. And no serious overcrowding. And a plan for how to deal with any other emergency not involving blocking a platform.

You could turn it into Thameslink, of course, but that would be a big change!
To turn in into Thameslink-style service would require...Tories turn away I'm about to say a scary word... "INVESTMENT"

I'm so sorry, I know I should have never said that, I know us scummy Northerners should be rightly chastised for walking up and asking for functional infrastructure like little old Oliver Twist, but at some point, you just crack.
 

Ianno87

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Unfortunately, I think I agree in that the most sensible solution is likely mothballing the Chord. The only other alternative might be to run an airport shuttle twice an hour to/from Victoria. The shuttle could have a bit more recovery time and less vulnerable to the delays seen on long distance services. Would likely need an extra one/two terminating platforms at Victoria though.

As per the discussion in the thread, again you identify that, along with every proposal made by posters in this discussion to *not* use the chord (seemingly solely on the grounds of some personal vendetta), this simply shoves the "problem" to be dealt with somewhere else.

Meanwhile the DfT consultation indicates, backed up with actual modelled evidence, Option C makes use of the chord, provides a net benefit in overall connectivity terms, provides more robust performance and does not require new infrastructure. Win, win, win and win. Anything else is worse.

To turn in into Thameslink-style service would require...Tories turn away I'm about to say a scary word... "INVESTMENT"

I'm so sorry, I know I should have never said that, I know us scummy Northerners should be rightly chastised for walking up and asking for functional infrastructure like little old Oliver Twist, but at some point, you just crack.

Leaving an £85 million flagship piece of infrastructure completely unused is the absolute best way of ensuring that there is never another penny invested again. Especially when multiple option have been presented to both use it robustly and still provide overall connectivity benefits.
 

Bletchleyite

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Leaving an £85 million flagship piece of infrastructure completely unused is the absolute best way of ensuring that there is never another penny invested again. Especially when multiple option have been presented to both use it robustly and still provide overall connectivity benefits.

The thing is, it should never have been built. Or rather, it should only have been built in conjunction with the other parts of the programme, and those other parts should have been built first, because they would have brought immediate advantage, whereas the Chord brought immediate overall disadvantage without the other bits.

To fail to acknowledge a mistake simply for reasons of pride is foolishness of the highest order.
 

Ianno87

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The thing is, it should never have been built. Or rather, it should only have been built in conjunction with the other parts of the programme, and those other parts should have been built first, because they would have brought immediate advantage, whereas the Chord brought immediate overall disadvantage without the other bits.

To fail to acknowledge a mistake simply for reasons of pride is foolishness of the highest order.

But using it in the manner of Option C still provides a train service that has net connectivity benefits over the train service that existed prior to the Ordsall chord.

If 'Option C' had been the pattern introduced in May 2018 (rather than the over-ambitious plan that was implemented instead) and had settled down to operate robustly we wouldn't be able to claim the chord was a 'mistake'. It would still have offered a net improvement; the only problem was that the original May 2018 timetable was too much of an unrealistic moonshot, trying to please everybody and avoid the 'difficult' choices.
 

Bletchleyite

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But using it in the manner of Option C still provides a train service that has net connectivity benefits over the train service that existed prior to the Ordsall chord.

If 'Option C' had been the pattern introduced in May 2018 (rather than the over-ambitious plan that was implemented instead) and had settled down to operate robustly we wouldn't be able to claim the chord was a 'mistake'. It would still have offered a net improvement; the only problem was that the original May 2018 timetable was too much of an unrealistic moonshot, trying to please everybody and avoid the 'difficult' choices.

Would it? Not if you ask anyone from the Southport line (loss of Picc services), Wigan (loss of fast services) or the Atherton Line (downgrade from 3 to 2tph), all of which are being sacrificed in favour of bucket and spade passengers from Yorkshire* (as the proper fix for the "crossing the formation" issue is simply to terminate all the TPEs that reverse in Picc there, and have a separate service to Ringway replacing them - with the bonus that that would release either 2 or 3 Class 185s for strengthening).

Not something I can support, I'm afraid. Of the options, C is best, but we shouldn't even have gone there in the first place.

* With most airport jobs being low-paid, it's unlikely there will be many long distance commuters to work there, so it is air passengers.
 

Ianno87

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Would it? Not if you ask anyone from the Southport line (loss of Picc services), Wigan (loss of fast services) or the Atherton Line (downgrade from 3 to 2tph), all of which are being sacrificed in favour of bucket and spade passengers from Yorkshire*

Will you please stop your ridiculous fixation with TPE airport services being only for "bucket and spade" passengers (a comment which mysteriously never seems to apply to Southport services...), and recognise that their objective is to provide a fast service to Victoria, and a direct link around the Chord to Oxford Road and Piccadilly for the University etc from Yorkshire (which is also a link that existed pre-May 2018 which some people will have "built their lives" around, just not via Victoria), and the Airport is a happy coincidental outcome from this.

In the consultation document, all flows have been considered on balance, using industry standard modelling methodologies of passenger demand, by modellers who live nowhere near Manchester and have no particular interest or bias in favoring particular flows over others, and concluded that Option C offers more benefits than disadvantages. And, yes, that means removing some existing historic direct links because new alternative links now possible provide much greater benefits.

(as the proper fix for the "crossing the formation" issue is simply to terminate all the TPEs that reverse in Picc there, and have a separate service to Ringway replacing them - with the bonus that that would release either 2 or 3 Class 185s for strengthening).

But you don't appreciate that the central Manchester to central Leeds journey time has a value too; and Victoria achieves this better than Piccadilly does. And the value of 4tph worth of passengers saving a few minutes from Leeds to Manchester (And by consequence Newcastle to Manchester, Leeds to Liverpool etc.) outweighs then handful of passengers from Southport who apparently can't manage changing trains to get to Oxford Road (as the majority of Southport passengers won't actually care anyway).

Not something I can support, I'm afraid. Of the options, C is best, but we shouldn't even have gone there in the first place.

* With most airport jobs being low-paid, it's unlikely there will be many long distance commuters to work there, so it is air passengers.

And air passengers are valuable to the economy, even if not dominant in number.
 

Bletchleyite

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Will you please stop your ridiculous fixation with TPE airport services being only for "bucket and spade" passengers (a comment which mysteriously never seems to apply to Southport services...), and recognise that their objective is to provide a fast service to Victoria, and a direct link around the Chord to Oxford Road and Piccadilly for the University etc from Yorkshire, and the Airport is a happy coincidental outcome from this.

Why does Yorkshire deserve that and Lancashire not?
 

Ianno87

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Why does Yorkshire deserve that and Lancashire not?

"Lancashire" = Wigan, Burscough Bridge and Southport

"Yorkshire" = Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, York etc

A bit of a difference in the size of demand affected, isn't there?
 

4-SUB 4732

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Why does Yorkshire deserve that and Lancashire not?
I think I have to agree with Ianno. You are being quite obtuse. What Option C does is provide at least 4tph from Bolton, so assuming the Southport services go that way (I believe they will?) then the connections will be solid for the Airport.

Quite frankly, however, there is an elephant in the room:

I am reading a document that says they want the GWR Turbo service (the faster Reading to Redhill in the 3tph plan) to extend to Tonbridge, Ashford and Canterbury West. It is absolutely disgraceful that they're doing this, but because idiots are allowed to sew a seed, the person who goes to Cardiff once a year has been convinced they can now do an easy one-change accordingly. Forgetting the ludicrous nature of the operation, the Redhill conflicts, the waste of the path using only a 3/4 car.

All the people who want an Airport link, are just the same. Even if they holiday twice a year from Manchester, chances are one of their flights either outward or back will be too early / late for a train so they probably barely make a round trip to Manchester Airport once a year. And we expect people who pay thousands for their season ticket to have rubbish, unreliable service caused by the Southport service just having to go to Oxford Road and the Airport when they just want to get from Patricroft to Victoria. Or Farnworth to Victoria. Whatever it is.

The whole point of Option C, like parts of South London etc., is to finally tell people that they'll have to work around the trains for the greater good, and not get a daft hourly service to suit them because they might have to make a leisure journey once or twice a month.

Rant over.
 

Bletchleyite

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"Lancashire" = Wigan, Burscough Bridge and Southport

"Yorkshire" = Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, York etc

A bit of a difference in the size of demand affected, isn't there?

Yes, but it's as easy to give Yorkshire Piccadilly services by running them into the main trainshed. Perhaps, thinking back, the curve to the east of Vic going to Picc should have been reinstated rather than building Ordsall? That way, services from the North West could have run to the main trainshed via Vic.

To be fair, if I could trust that Option C will be a proper Takt with connections considered, i.e. the Blackpool-Airport run just behind the Southports in both directions to ease connections at Salford, with the Atherton services just the other side for connections in the other direction, I'd mind less. But I don't trust that at all, I rather more expect something rubbish like a 29 minute connection.
 

4-SUB 4732

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Yes, but it's as easy to give Yorkshire Piccadilly services by running them into the main trainshed. Perhaps, thinking back, the curve to the east of Vic going to Picc should have been reinstated rather than building Ordsall? That way, services from the North West could have run to the main trainshed via Vic.

To be fair, if I could trust that Option C will be a proper Takt with connections considered, i.e. the Blackpool-Airport run just behind the Southports in both directions to ease connections at Salford, with the Atherton services just the other side for connections in the other direction, I'd mind less. But I don't trust that at all, I rather more expect something rubbish like a 29 minute connection.
So people could sit on a train ambling around Manchester to go into the main shed where capacity barely existed?

What you need is Atherton trains to drop into Salford just in front of the Blackpool services; the Southport ones to run just ahead of the Scotland/Cumbria from Bolton as they probably won't stop at Salford. Easy.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think I have to agree with Ianno. You are being quite obtuse. What Option C does is provide at least 4tph from Bolton, so assuming the Southport services go that way (I believe they will?) then the connections will be solid for the Airport.

Will they? Or will the wait be too long? 15 minutes connection time on what is a relatively short journey is too long, really, and I don't entirely trust it not being something silly like 25 minutes; for people to use these connections you need to look at e.g. the connection for Bletchley at Leighton which is about 5 minutes.

I'd object less if I knew it would be a proper Takt. We clearly have 2 out of the 3 elements - clockface and simple, self-contained routes - but you need all three.

FWIW, designing for connections does actually in some ways mess up neat patterns. Lets's say you have the Blackpools and Southports go through Bolton and Salford Crescent in a neat pattern every 15 minutes. You can connect between them, but 15 minutes is a long time to be stood around in the cold, and is a considerable penalty on say a Wigan to Manchester journey which is well under an hour. The ideal would be that they meet up on adjacent sides of an island platform at Bolton for both-directions interchange before heading off, but we don't have the infrastructure for that. So the only way to get the connections right would be to have a "parade" going through Salford Crescent 5 minutes apart - the ex-Southport, then the ex-Blackpool, then the ex-Atherton southbound, the opposite way round northbound. To be fair that does give you a neat 5 minute pattern at Salford, but it doesn't make for a neat pattern elsewhere.

(There would be big benefit of rebuilding Salford Crescent to 2 island platforms - that way you could do exactly that - have every service from Vic meet one from Pic and vice versa, and wait there 2-3 minutes to give people chance to pop across both ways before continuing - that's proper Takt)

The whole point of Option C, like parts of South London etc., is to finally tell people that they'll have to work around the trains for the greater good, and not get a daft hourly service to suit them because they might have to make a leisure journey once or twice a month.

Neither of those is right, though South London suffers less due to rather higher frequencies. What you need to do is provide direct services for the key flows, and then timed, planned and maintained connections for the smaller ones, and where they're equal you alternate them as through and connection. That is the element of Takt that the UK persistently forgets, largely because it requires infrastructure (platforms, mainly) to be built without being able to squeeze through yet another 153 once an hour from Rathole-on-Sea to Gypsum-factory-in-the-High-Peak, or somesuch.

In other words, people hate changing - on trains, on buses, whatever - because we don't provide the quality of connection that is needed to make them even consider it. That is arguably the most important element of Takt.

What you need is Atherton trains to drop into Salford just in front of the Blackpool services; the Southport ones to run just ahead of the Scotland/Cumbria from Bolton as they probably won't stop at Salford. Easy.

You do - I just posted the same, near enough - but that doesn't give you neat 15 minute patterns everywhere, so I bet it won't happen. (The Scotland and Cumbria are also constrained by WCML paths, so it depends if you can tweak the Southport and Atherton timings or not).
 
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Ianno87

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Yes, but it's as easy to give Yorkshire Piccadilly services by running them into the main trainshed.

But not with the same journey time that they can achieve into Victoria. Nor with maintaining links to Liverpool etc (or splitting the service across Victoria and Piccadilly). Or keeping services to Oxford Road which existed pre-May 2018 (exactly the same argument you use for Southport services).
 

Bletchleyite

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But not with the same journey time that they can achieve into Victoria. Nor with maintaining links to Liverpool etc (or splitting the service across Victoria and Piccadilly). Or keeping services to Oxford Road which existed pre-May 2018 (exactly the same argument you use for Southport services).

I would have no issue at all with the idea of wiring via Warrington and returning to the pre-1998 timetable (or even the 1998 one itself with some service increases it provided), as those did work. Indeed, my view is that they wired the wrong line from Liverpool to Manchester if they were only going to do one - the large number of intermediate stations on the CLC would mean EMUs would bring far more benefit than Chat Moss, and then the TPE EMUs could have gone that way and through Castlefield like they had done for years.

OK, doing Chat Moss meant you could run Manchester-Scotland with EMUs, I suppose, but via Bolton is now done anyway.
 

4-SUB 4732

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I would have no issue at all with the idea of wiring via Warrington and returning to the pre-1998 timetable (or even the 1998 one itself with some service increases), as those did work. Indeed, my view is that they wired the wrong line from Liverpool to Manchester if they were only going to do one - the large number of intermediate stations on the CLC would mean EMUs would bring far more benefit than Chat Moss.

Well, as we know now, the halcyon days of about 2010 when the Liverpool - Scarborough trains cut across the entire Piccadilly throat is not the way to go. The only realistic reason to wire the CLC now, based on the fact that finally someone has sensibly determined that the CLC fast paths should form a standard half-hourly Liverpool - Sheffield (Hope Valley also diesel), is for freight if they send Trafford Park freight that way.

Even then, that's pie in the sky.
 

JonathanH

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Indeed, my view is that they wired the wrong line from Liverpool to Manchester if they were only going to do one - the large number of intermediate stations on the CLC would mean EMUs would bring far more benefit than Chat Moss.
They really didn't wire the wrong route. There are a lot of stations inside Earlestown and the Wigan via St Helens Central branch to consider on the Chat Moss route and a more intensive service than on the CLC route.

Moreover, the line changes at Huyton are what enables the very much quicker journeys between Liverpool and Manchester than when the two quick trains went via Warrington Central.
 

py_megapixel

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Well, as we know now, the halcyon days of about 2010 when the Liverpool - Scarborough trains cut across the entire Piccadilly throat is not the way to go. The only realistic reason to wire the CLC now, based on the fact that finally someone has sensibly determined that the CLC fast paths should form a standard half-hourly Liverpool - Sheffield (Hope Valley also diesel), is for freight if they send Trafford Park freight that way.

Even then, that's pie in the sky.
Sorry if I'm missing something here, but Liv-Sheffield trains also have to cut across the Picc throat! And there's still the stopping paths which would benefit from EMU operation.
 

4-SUB 4732

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Sorry if I'm missing something here, but Liv-Sheffield trains also have to cut across the Picc throat! And there's still the stopping paths which would benefit from EMU operation.
They do not, you are moving the conflict for those to Slade Lane, near Levenshulme, where they will no doubt be timed to cross at the same time to optimise the timetable. Remarkably, they also then cross at Castlefield at the same time.
 

py_megapixel

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Not the whole thing if you run via Stockport, only half of it. Indeed wasn't that the whole premise of the Hazel Grove chord?
They do not, you are moving the conflict for those to Slade Lane, near Levenshulme, where they will no doubt be timed to cross at the same time to optimise the timetable. Remarkably, they also then cross at Castlefield at the same time.
Ah right, that makes sense, I knew I'd have missed something.
 

Ianno87

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Well, as we know now, the halcyon days of about 2010 when the Liverpool - Scarborough trains cut across the entire Piccadilly throat is not the way to go. The only realistic reason to wire the CLC now, based on the fact that finally someone has sensibly determined that the CLC fast paths should form a standard half-hourly Liverpool - Sheffield (Hope Valley also diesel), is for freight if they send Trafford Park freight that way.

Even then, that's pie in the sky.

They really didn't wire the wrong route. There are a lot of stations inside Earlestown and the Wigan via St Helens Central branch to consider on the Chat Moss route and a more intensive service than on the CLC route.

Moreover, the line changes at Huyton are what enables the very much quicker journeys between Liverpool and Manchester than when the two quick trains went via Warrington Central.

And the move seems to be away from the CLC having any notion of a truly "fast" service, with the Liverpool-Sheffield services stopping at the likes of Urmston to give extra frequency and semi-fast journey times, given the key Liverpool-Manchester journey time is now unquestionably via Chat Moss.
 

4-SUB 4732

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And the move seems to be away from the CLC having any notion of a truly "fast" service, with the Liverpool-Sheffield services stopping at the likes of Urmston to give extra frequency and semi-fast journey times, given the key Liverpool-Manchester journey time is now unquestionably via Chat Moss.

Indeed. The CLC probably did need to be relegated to "secondary" status, as the infrastructure interventions in the Huyton area and the linkage to Victoria made it the prime TransPennine and express route.

Realistically, you're going to get Hunts Cross, Widnes, Birchwood and Urmston one extra call per hour, so two stops on each fast Sheffield. Can't see Flixton or even Irlam warranting more capacity if the CLC stopper has 4 coaches, which it probably will every 30 minutes.
 
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