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Ordsall Chord etc - what was the actual plan?

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tbtc

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The thing is, it should never have been built. Or rather, it should only have been built in conjunction with the other parts of the programme, and those other parts should have been built first, because they would have brought immediate advantage, whereas the Chord brought immediate overall disadvantage without the other bits.

To fail to acknowledge a mistake simply for reasons of pride is foolishness of the highest order.

I know that you have a fixation with How Things Were In 1998 but the rest of the world has moved on. Ordsall was built (rather than 15/16). Chat Moss was electrified (rather than the CLC). There were merits to these decisions, there will always be people sad that their favoured thing didn't get approved, but these things happened.

(obviously neither of these projects should have gone ahead - we should have spent all the money in Sheffield instead :lol:)

If you want to mothball something that cost tens of millions of pounds then fine, but you're not going to get any other infrastructure built with that approach, so you might as well use the lines that you do have - it's not as if mothballing the chord is going to encourate the Chancellor gets his chequebook out to spend tens of millions more money on another infrastructure in central Manchester in the hope that this one might actually be used.

Either you accept reality and build a timetable fit for the infrastructure we have or you fail.

The Forum seems split between those willing to fashion something realistic from the finite resources available (which will mean some compromises, some existing services being tweaked - maybe some long distance services having to pick up local calls, maybe some through services chopped in two) and those who aren't willing to let reality get in the way of their ambitions. Oddly, I thought that you'd normally have been in the former camp, when it came to other threads, but all of this appears to go out of the window whenever someone mentions the Southport line...
 
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Bletchleyite

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Realistically, you're going to get Hunts Cross, Widnes, Birchwood and Urmston one extra call per hour, so two stops on each fast Sheffield. Can't see Flixton or even Irlam warranting more capacity if the CLC stopper has 4 coaches, which it probably will every 30 minutes.

Interestingly the consultation document suggests that the Cleethorpes will get all of them with none added to the Nottingham, which won't mean a nice half hourly pattern :)

Edit: FWIW, in years gone by, some of the CLC expresses did additional peak stops, fairly sure the 0749 off Lime St did Urmston and Irlam.
 
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Ianno87

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Interestingly the consultation document suggests that the Cleethorpes will get all of them with none added to the Nottingham, which won't mean a nice half hourly pattern :)

Suspect either:
-Keep it simple for such an early stage of timetable development (with an opportunity to fine-tune later), or
-Put the extra stops in the train with the better acceleration performance (presuming the Cleethorpes is a 185/195 or similar) which might offset the unevenly spread stops.


Also, the current Nottingham path departs Liverpool right behind the Avanti departure for Euston, so just adding one stop (thus departing Liverpool 2-3 minutes earlier) doesn't work.
 

HSP 2

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"Lancashire" = Wigan, Burscough Bridge and Southport

"Yorkshire" = Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, York etc

A bit of a difference in the size of demand affected, isn't there?

That looks a bit of a one sided equation. When in Lancashire you appear to miss out some city's and large towns. As we all well know that Lancashire has had a number of boundary changes and that the three county's of Yorkshire have had only minimal. So maybe the size of demand could change, to some thing like this.

Yorkshire ( N.R. ) Middlesbrough, Scarborough.
Yorkshire ( E. R. ) Hull.
Yorkshire ( W. R.) Bradford, Dewsbury, Doncaster, Leeds, Sheffield.
York, on it's own as in all of the Ridings.

Lancashire, Barrow, Blackburn, Blackpool, Bolton, Lancaster, Liverpool, Manchester, Oldham, Preston, Salford, Warrington, Widnes, Wigan.

You could also say that the TPEs could take out some of the city's / towns.
 

GRALISTAIR

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That is the element of Takt that the UK persistently forgets, largely because it requires infrastructure (platforms, mainly) to be built without being able to squeeze through yet another 153 once an hour from Rathole-on-Sea to Gypsum-factory-in-the-High-Peak, or somesuch.

In other words, people hate changing - on trains, on buses, whatever - because we don't provide the quality of connection that is needed to make them even consider it. That is arguably the most important element of Takt.
Brilliant. Nearly as good as one on the previous Ordsall Chord or Castlefield Corridor thread when a poster made a comment about paying homage to Fellowship of the Ringway and a journey from Slagborough-on-sea. The point is still well made and stands though imho.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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I think the ticketing system should accept Metrolink as a transfer through the central zone. That would be a good start. Then I think more people would be confident in getting themselves between Victoria and Piccadilly, especially if they are not familiar with the area.
Looks like govt has kicked smart ticketing into the long grass with this announcement from TfN

The loss of £33m of smart travel funding could delay the roll out of contactless technology in the North (planned for 2021/2) to around 1,000 buses, as well as train and light rail networks totalling over 600 million journeys in 2019. This, alongside the roll out of flexible ticketing, is seen as critical to aiding Covid-19 recovery and encouraging passengers back to public transport.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Going back to the days when the Ordsall Chord project was still in its Public Enquiry stage, what were the objections to this project by the civil engineer Mark Whitby? I recall his objections led to quite a time period delay at the time.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Going back to the days when the Ordsall Chord project was still in its Public Enquiry stage, what were the objections to this project by the civil engineer Mark Whitby? I recall his objections led to quite a time period delay at the time.
In a nutshell - Not invented here syndrome. His idea was “better” at least in his own mind.
 
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Ianno87

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In a nutshell - Not invented here syndrome. His idea was better.

If by better you mean "more expensive and considerably more environmental impact and landtake without the associated operational benefits"?

Put it this way, if it had been built as per Whitby's idea, the lack of Piccadilly 15/16 would **really** be daft, with a hugely flexible grade separated junction feeding into the same low-capacity Castlefield corridor. End result would have been the same, except with more money spent.

Option C proposes a robust use of the Castlefield corridor that does not require this elaborate solution.
 

GRALISTAIR

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If by better you mean "more expensive and considerably more environmental impact and landtake without the associated operational benefits"?

Put it this way, if it had been built as per Whitby's idea, the lack of Piccadilly 15/16 would **really** be daft, with a hugely flexible grade separated junction feeding into the same low-capacity Castlefield corridor. End result would have been the same, except with more money spent.

Option C proposes a robust use of the Castlefield corridor that does not require this elaborate solution.
I don’t disagree. I have altered my original post by putting “better” in inverted commas. I certainly did not think it better.
 

Jozhua

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As per the discussion in the thread, again you identify that, along with every proposal made by posters in this discussion to *not* use the chord (seemingly solely on the grounds of some personal vendetta), this simply shoves the "problem" to be dealt with somewhere else.

Meanwhile the DfT consultation indicates, backed up with actual modelled evidence, Option C makes use of the chord, provides a net benefit in overall connectivity terms, provides more robust performance and does not require new infrastructure. Win, win, win and win. Anything else is worse.



Leaving an £85 million flagship piece of infrastructure completely unused is the absolute best way of ensuring that there is never another penny invested again. Especially when multiple option have been presented to both use it robustly and still provide overall connectivity benefits.
I didn't say we shouldn't use the chord - I suggested a method of using it that would reduce disruption and other methods that might have been more successful in reducing congestion around central Manchester. (aka the airport shuttle)

The key issue with the chord is that trains are now stopping at three stations, on the most congested part of the railway, in the largest city in the North West, at a major interchange between several railway lines. To make it work, you have to increase platform capacity at every station involved.

Leaving an £85m piece of infrastructure unused because Westminster didn't complete a project properly would be a fantastic symbol of the waste caused by constant stop-starting & half-completion of schemes.

Now, when I've used it, I have seen a pretty decent number of passengers on board. And some of them will doubtlessly rely on it for part of their journeys. Having 5 car trains go through is more acceptable.
The thing is, it should never have been built. Or rather, it should only have been built in conjunction with the other parts of the programme, and those other parts should have been built first, because they would have brought immediate advantage, whereas the Chord brought immediate overall disadvantage without the other bits.

To fail to acknowledge a mistake simply for reasons of pride is foolishness of the highest order.
Yeah. Its a very typical Tory move of cancelling the project halfway-through, to get the least benefit out of it possible.

Can't wait for them to do the same with HS2, but that's another debate.
Would it? Not if you ask anyone from the Southport line (loss of Picc services), Wigan (loss of fast services) or the Atherton Line (downgrade from 3 to 2tph), all of which are being sacrificed in favour of bucket and spade passengers from Yorkshire* (as the proper fix for the "crossing the formation" issue is simply to terminate all the TPEs that reverse in Picc there, and have a separate service to Ringway replacing them - with the bonus that that would release either 2 or 3 Class 185s for strengthening).

Not something I can support, I'm afraid. Of the options, C is best, but we shouldn't even have gone there in the first place.

* With most airport jobs being low-paid, it's unlikely there will be many long distance commuters to work there, so it is air passengers.
This is true, the number of services running to the chord from other places has been reduced, if not in frequency, definitely in quality. (*ahem Bolton*)

Unfortunately, as long as Metrolink is not properly integrated into NR ticketing in the city centre, there's not much it's going to do to help people transfer.

In the longer term, maybe tram-train out to Wigan may be a good solution to get city centre connectivity and reduce congestion, but I don't know if the trams will be fast enough to keep up with expected journey times.

The best option would be a Manchester Crossrail or Metro. But that's seemingly out of the picture.
 

Purple Orange

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The best option would be a Manchester Crossrail or Metro. But that's seemingly out of the picture.

But it’s not out of the picture. It is a part of the Greater Manchester 2040 transport strategy, along with tram-trains. The units that use the tunnel would probably be closer to a Tyne & Wear Metro train.
 

158756

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Indeed. The CLC probably did need to be relegated to "secondary" status, as the infrastructure interventions in the Huyton area and the linkage to Victoria made it the prime TransPennine and express route.

Realistically, you're going to get Hunts Cross, Widnes, Birchwood and Urmston one extra call per hour, so two stops on each fast Sheffield. Can't see Flixton or even Irlam warranting more capacity if the CLC stopper has 4 coaches, which it probably will every 30 minutes.
Two of the three options in the consultation in the other thread suggest Irlam getting a stop on the semi-fast, with the stopper only running hourly off peak east of Warrington.
 

jonesy3001

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But it’s not out of the picture. It is a part of the Greater Manchester 2040 transport strategy, along with tram-trains. The units that use the tunnel would probably be closer to a Tyne & Wear Metro train.

Still got tunnels under the arndale centre when they started building the pic - vic link before it got abandoned by the government.
 

Bald Rick

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Still got tunnels under the arndale centre when they started building the pic - vic link before it got abandoned by the government.

That’s not quite right - tunnels weren’t built, it was just a void left in basement. The link was cancelled long before any construction work.
 

jonesy3001

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Typical London centric government, has my signature says "If it's not in London they don't want to know.
But if they do think about building tunnels it could be a start.
 

Bletchleyite

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Typical London centric government, has my signature says "If it's not in London they don't want to know.
But if they do think about building tunnels it could be a start.

I guess it rather depends on whether the full NPR project happens. If it does then things like TPE and other long-distance services can be taken off Castlefield and out of Victoria, and the existing infrastructure as we have now could become something a bit like a more complex version of Thameslink (about which I created another thread). If it doesn't, we need to start thinking about other cheaper options, which could well be to look to remove trains from Castlefield and Victoria another way, such as a Den Haag style tram tunnel with some sort of "pre-metro" Metrolink services running through it, e.g. the Atherton Line for one.

We might even want to do both, e.g. if NPR provides a replacement Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester fast service, then the CLC could be turned over to Metrolink and Merseyrail as it would no longer serve a long-distance purpose - that's another 3tph (with option C) removed from Castlefield, i.e. the 2 fasts and the stopper, and unlike every other line to the west of Manchester the only one that can't go to Victoria.
 

yorkie

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This thread appears to be duplicating discussions taking place in other threads.


Just a gentle reminder that we absolutely do welcome ideas and suggestions, such as this (to give one random example):

...The whole system needs ripped up and done again. Failing that, just spending the money and dealing with it as best you can is never going to work. I agree the ordsal chord shouldn't have been built without the corresponding stuff along castlefield, but here we are. In the meantime, the new timetable will go someway to solving the 'trains from everywhere to the airport' problem....

However we just ask that all such ideas are posted in the appropriate forum section please and not in any of the forum sections within the UK Railway Forums category.

If anyone wishes to post any ideas/suggestions relating to Castlefield please use the following thread:


We need to talk about Castlefield again
 
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