Ordsall Chord

[BantamMenace]

Does that mean that the Chord is about a metre above the MOSI track or that the clearance to the MOSI track is a metre short?
If the latter then would a track lowering be a possibility to retain the link?

I know its all been discussed at length before just eliminating a thread before it starts again.

Its a metre above the MOSI track

 

[Ploughman]

Thanks for that.

 

[andyb2706]

But what if in the future trains from Piccadilly via Ordsall Chord needed to terminate at Vic without blocking through platforms? This can never happen now. Where is future proofing for growth? So short sighted as always.

The only time trains are going to terminate at Manchester Victoria would be in emergencies as the plans are to have it as a through station only...excluding the bay platforms of course. So for example a train from the Airport would call at the three main Manchester stations before carrying on to Rochdale or Stalybridge. The planned number of paths through Victoria in the next few years will prohibit services terminating there.
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Its a metre above the MOSI track

Just a slight problem with clearance there then!

 

[Baggypants]

In about 15 years this dicussion will crop up again for the bi-centenery and will probably be likened to the demolition of the Euston Arch due to it's short sightedness.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sad. I do recall walking the full length of what was the longest platform in Britain.

Indeed so. It is the older forum members as both of us are who hold memories that the younger of the forum membership can only read about these days. Platform 11 at Manchester Victoria railway station crossing the River Irwell overbridge to then become platform 3 at Manchester Exchange railway station.

 

[The Planner]

In about 15 years this dicussion will crop up again for the bi-centenery and will probably be likened to the demolition of the Euston Arch due to it's short sightedness.

Why? how often do trains go in now? Its not as though the whole thing is being destroyed, just the ability to put trains in there.

 

[BantamMenace]

Why? how often do trains go in now? Its not as though the whole thing is being destroyed, just the ability to put trains in there.

Agreed, and for important events such as the anniversary mentioned they can be brought in by road transport if necessary.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Agreed, and for important events such as the anniversary mentioned they can be brought in by road transport if necessary.

And if it really, really matters to them I don't see why they can't spend a load of money on lowering the existing link and increasing the gradient.

 

[ironstone11]

Agreed, and for important events such as the anniversary mentioned they can be brought in by road transport if necessary.

I don't think rail access to the museum is any longer the primary concern.

The main objections are coming from English Heritage, who are claiming that several listed structures will be 'wrecked' in one way or another.

Their statement of case is here:- http://www.networkrail.co.uk/north/ordsall-chord/statement-of-case-english-heritage.pdf

Judging by the delay in publishing the Planning Inspector's report I suspect that English Heritage may get their way, so whole project will have to be redesigned and costed. Since the redesigned version will inevitably be more expensive, the government, i.e. the taxpayer, will be expected to make up the difference.

The go ahead could then be delayed until the next parliament.

 

[mtbox]

I don't think rail access to the museum is any longer the primary concern.

The main objections are coming from English Heritage, who are claiming that several listed structures will be 'wrecked' in one way or another.

Their statement of case is here:- http://www.networkrail.co.uk/north/ordsall-chord/statement-of-case-english-heritage.pdf

Judging by the delay in publishing the Planning Inspector's report I suspect that English Heritage may get their way, so whole project will have to be redesigned and costed. Since the redesigned version will inevitably be more expensive, the government, i.e. the taxpayer, will be expected to make up the difference.

The go ahead could then be delayed until the next parliament.

And rightly so......

 

[edwin_m]

And if it really, really matters to them I don't see why they can't spend a load of money on lowering the existing link and increasing the gradient.

If by the existing link you mean the one into MOSI, then lowering it will destroy all the historic structures.

 

[Viscount702]

I don't think rail access to the museum is any longer the primary concern.

The main objections are coming from English Heritage, who are claiming that several listed structures will be 'wrecked' in one way or another.

Their statement of case is here:- http://www.networkrail.co.uk/north/ordsall-chord/statement-of-case-english-heritage.pdf

Judging by the delay in publishing the Planning Inspector's report I suspect that English Heritage may get their way, so whole project will have to be redesigned and costed. Since the redesigned version will inevitably be more expensive, the government, i.e. the taxpayer, will be expected to make up the difference.

The go ahead could then be delayed until the next parliament.

I believe you have hit the nail on the head. It is also a view I hold and have had for some time now I still hope I am wrong but I don't think so.

If that is the case I believe the rest of the Hub will fall with it to the extent that it hasn't already been scaled back or completed.

I have little time these days for EH because they seem more concerned with their own status that what they are there to do and if they cared about these structures then why haven't they said something before because as far as I am aware they haven't been looked after very well .

However if it does go the way I think it will then the North can say goodbye to any new version of the Chord because it won't get funding.

I think NR know what the outcome will be and have done for sometime and hence the reason why they are being evasive in responding to questions. Also the Government won't want to say anything before the election in light of the Northern Power House and the supposed support they and in particular George Osborne has given to these proposals and as a result the decision will be delayed until there is a new government but the result will be the same. The North will not get the improved rail services it was hoping for.

Although I am no fan of EH if this doesn't get the go ahead then much of the blame will I think lie with NR because they did not consult with EH as they should have done at an early stage and have on the face of it, manged the project badly.

 

[snowball]

hence the reason why they are being evasive in responding to questions.

Where do you get this from? How are they being evasive? They're replying to questions in the only way they possibly can in the circumstances: to say they're awaiting the minister's decision.

 

[Viscount702]

Where do you get this from? How are they being evasive? They're replying to questions in the only way they possibly can in the circumstances: to say they're awaiting the minister's decision.

Ultimately that is all they can say.

But if you look at all the comments on here and SSC in response to questions to NR the replies could just say that , but no they always have to preface everything with the usual but unnecessary rubbish about investment in the North etc which seeks to deflect from the question.

Even questions to the Minister by the shadow Minister get rather unhelpful answers.

I believe the report to the Minister does not make for easy reading particularly the criticisms by EH of NR on the their whole approach to the project and the fact that EH are against the project as it stands.

For that reason I doubt we will have a decision before the election because I believe it will be "No" order which in light of the Northern Power House and Mr Osborne's desire to improve rail services in the North isn't going to help the Government at the election.

 

[snowball]

Ultimately that is all they can say.

But if you look at all the comments on here and SSC

Don't be too influenced by Farsight on SSC. His brain cell is permanently overheated.

in response to questions to NR the replies could just say that , but no they always have to preface everything with the usual but unnecessary rubbish about investment in the North etc which seeks to deflect from the question.

That's just press and public relations departments earning their keep by putting out the standard stuff they always do.

Even questions to the Minister by the shadow Minister get rather unhelpful answers.

Of course they do. That's the only conceivable thing they could do in the circumstances. When a minister is making a decision on a planning issue following the conclusion of a public inquiry, no information is ever released until the final decision.

I believe the report to the Minister does not make for easy reading particularly the criticisms by EH of NR on the their whole approach to the project and the fact that EH are against the project as it stands.

If you have information about what's in the inspector's report then you have the advantage over me there. At least it's a counter to the rumour posted on here not long ago, implying that the delay was the inspector's fault because his report was not yet with the minister.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Agreed, and for important events such as the anniversary mentioned they can be brought in by road transport if necessary.

Indeed most of the railway exhibits in MMOSI are so old (or representative thereof) that if they needed to be moved for restoration work they'd almost certainly go by road anyway. The 'real' railway moves a lot of stock by road, so museums should be no different.

 

[HowardGWR]

What's SSC (post 434)?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

What's SSC (post 434)?

Dunno; http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=97524757&postcount=434 seems an unlikely choice.

 

[snowball]

What's SSC (post 434)?

As Joseph hints, it's Skyscrapercity, a vast international online discussion forum which has a much smaller but very active subforum on transport in Greater Manchester. A large number of people are members both here and there. Many of us frequently re-post here news we've learned there and vice versa. Among other things it's the best site for pictures of work on Victoria reconstruction, Metrolink extensions etc.

 

[Starmill]

But not everyone has the same name not looking at you Wrinkly and Snowball So it takes a bit of detective work!

 

[snowball]

When I registered here I first tried to use the same name, but it was taken.

 

[The Snap]

Apologies for my laziness, but to save me reading through 30 pages of this thread, can anyone update me on the latest situation of the Chord?

Has planning consent been granted? Did an agreement get reached between MOSI and the DfT/NR? When will work start (or has it started?)

Everything in the press and on the NR site seems to have gone quiet...

 

[snowball]

Apologies for my laziness, but to save me reading through 30 pages of this thread, can anyone update me on the latest situation of the Chord?

Has planning consent been granted? Did an agreement get reached between MOSI and the DfT/NR? When will work start (or has it started?)

Still waiting for a decision by the Secretary of State for Transport on NR's application for an order under the Transport and Works Act following the public inquiry last spring. NR was expecting the decision last November. Even if a favourable decision came tomorrow, the original completion date could almost certainly not now be met.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Still waiting for a decision by the Secretary of State for Transport on NR's application for an order under the Transport and Works Act following the public inquiry last spring. NR was expecting the decision last November. Even if a favourable decision came tomorrow, the original completion date could almost certainly not now be met.

....and there you have it, succinctly put, in a nutshell.

 

[The Snap]

Still waiting for a decision by the Secretary of State for Transport on NR's application for an order under the Transport and Works Act following the public inquiry last spring. NR was expecting the decision last November. Even if a favourable decision came tomorrow, the original completion date could almost certainly not now be met.

Thanks for the info.

The SoS seems to have a habit of not signing things off in good time. The same happened with the Norton Bridge flyover on the WCML which delayed things initially. It's back on schedule now I believe though.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has there been any recent statement by the Labour Party on how they view both this matter of the Ordsall Chord and also of the Northern Hub should they be returned to power at the next General Election?

 

[thealexweb]

Has there been any recent statement by the Labour Party on how they view both this matter of the Ordsall Chord and also of the Northern Hub should they be returned to power at the next General Election?

Like virtually all areas it seems there is utter silence from Labour. One would hope they do not cancel the Northern Hub as they were the ones that started it in their waning years.

 

[andyb2706]

Hmm...not sure about that, the rumblings from Labour recently on the railways has been slightly mixed message on privatisation/re-nationalisation. I am a railway worker myself but I am also a railway enthusiast and remember the good old days of BR and the lack of investment. Look at all the station redevelopments that have occurred or are in progress, electrification etc. I would not be too sure if this would have been done under a nationalised railway.

On the unit front, look at when the railways were initially privatised it was up to the TOC's and ROSCO's to purchase stock and the influx of new stock was quite rapid until the government stuck their oar in and all procurements need to go through them. A good example was TPE wanting a 4th carriage for their 185's. Order nearly went through until the government stuck their oar in and told them no, trains are still overcrowded on the Manchester to Leeds corridor.

Not sure whether the central government is the best to be running the railways in the North. All you need to do is look at Transport Scotland, TfL and even TfGM with their Metrolink and it proves that the best people to run the service are the people in the area whether that is elected government or the operators themselves, just hope Rail North comes off.

I've just realised I have come off topic and have kind of championing privatisation over central government run railway, hell has now truly frozen over! Apologies.

But back on topic privatisation is a good thing for government because who is likely to get the blame for a late delivery of the Ordsall Curve by the press. Government or Network Rail? I'm taking a guess Network Rail while the government just sit backs and gets no flack over it.

Rant over.

 

[AdamHewitt]

Like virtually all areas it seems there is utter silence from Labour. One would hope they do not cancel the Northern Hub as they were the ones that started it in their waning years.

Not quite silence...

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...nder-threat-as-planning-delays-continue/98279

Network Rail has confirmed to RTM that the timescales for the Ordsall Chord may need to be "reassessed" because of the long delays in obtaining permissions for the new stretch of track, which is a vital part of the wider Northern Hub upgrades.

It was responding to concerns raised by shadow rail minister Lilian Greenwood MP, who told RTM that the hold-up in securing a Transport & Works Act (TWA) Order is "deeply concerning" and means “passengers deserve to know if this important project is still on track”.
The original aim was to start work in late 2014 or early 2015, but the planning process has significantly delayed construction.

Network Rail chief executive Mark Carne said last summer that the December 2016 completion date could still be hit, but only if the appropriate permissions were in place by the end of last year.

With nearly two months having passed since that deadline, Greenwood told RTM: “The delay in awarding a Transport & Works Act (TWA) Order is deeply concerning, especially on the back of the failure to complete the electrification of the lines from Liverpool to Manchester and Wigan on time. The Department for Transport has told me that it still does not have a cost estimate for the Northern Hub, and there are fears in the industry that the TWA slippage will lead to further cost increases.

“Network Rail must now spell out the consequences of this latest delay. In June Mark Carne was clear that the December 2016 target was dependent on getting the relevant planning permission issued by the end of 2014, and passengers deserve to know if this important project is still on track.”

 

[ianhr]

Not quite silence...

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...nder-threat-as-planning-delays-continue/98279

If the Northern Hub is to have a chance of being made to work properly there is presumably quite a bit of other work hanging on the Ordsall chord proposal, e.g. platform lengthening at Oxford Road and platforms 15 & 16 at Piccadilly. If the Ordsall scheme fails then there will have to be a drastic rethink to sort out Manchester and I hope it will not be tram-trains for everything, which IMO would be a disaster.