ORR say no to Alliance operating trains on the WCML again?

[northwichcat]

They were told to comeback after the 2016 recast plan was completed but again they couldn't wait.

Their latest plans for Leeds/Blackpool to Euston services were to start in December 2018. One criticism of their previous plans was that the start date was too soon after the application date meaning the likelihood of getting a rolling stock order completed on time was slim.
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It's an application for paths to/from London Queens Park, not for trains to start/terminate there.

Their application did include an option for services starting/terminating at Queens Park during restructuring works at Euston.

 

[WatcherZero]

Their latest plans for Leeds/Blackpool to Euston services were to start in December 2018. One criticism of their previous plans was that the start date was too soon after the application date meaning the likelihood of getting a rolling stock order completed on time was slim.
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Their application did include an option for services starting/terminating at Queens Park during restructuring works at Euston.

Theres been a long planned recast of the northern WCML timetable due from Dec 2016, they were told twice that they wouldn't be given a path until after that timetable recast planning was done, twice they ignored that and applied anyway based on the current timetable. Until the recast was done ORR wouldn't know if there would be a path for them after 2016 and how it would impact timetable resilience. First time ORR refused to consider their application, they were lucky ORR did agree to consider it the second time but that was mainly as they had co-opted NR 'support'.

 

[ainsworth74]

I wasn't aware there was money sloshing around for new Pendolinos. It would certainly break the mold for an open access TOC to start by introducing brand new trains.

Hull Trains procured 170s and 222s for their operations and if the wires ever go up will be procuring some EMUs as well.

 

[The Planner]

I wouldnt expect much change as part of Dec 16, Euston works just make it too difficult to have a massive recast.

 

[Chester1]

They still have an active application with the ORR for GNER services: http://orr.gov.uk/consultations/acc...-applications/new-contracts-section-17-and-18

I would think the sensible thing to do for GNWR services is to wait until the next TPE and WC franchises are awarded but I imagine they'll be getting impatient given they were originally told to come back when the WC franchise was coming to an end and they did, but the award for the next franchise was rescinded.

The report goes into mind numbing detail, but AFAICT the application failed on two main points:
Failed the 'not primarily abstractive test, although only marginally.
Reducing TPE benefits from the forthcoming electrification.

What do you think their chances of getting paths for GNER are?

Also, how could they modify their routes for GNWR to make sure it doesnt affect TPE and so its not primarily abstractive? Its close atm, which bits make it primirily abstractive? Would getting rid of the Leeds-Victoria section be enough or does TPE need Victoria to Earlestown? Victoria to London would be a great service to have because Victoria will be more convient for people post northern hub and because it would create more capacity on Manchester-London services without causing more problems around Stockport. Perhaps Blackpool should be replaced with Liverpool (via Earlestown) it would mean a Liverpool - manchester slot wasnt wasted and maybe Victoria and Liverpool services could attach and detach at Warrington Bank Quay?

 

[northwichcat]

Also, how could they modify their routes for GNWR to make sure it doesnt affect TPE and so its not primarily abstractive? Its close atm, which bits make it primirily abstractive? Would getting rid of the Leeds-Victoria section be enough or does TPE need Victoria to Earlestown? Victoria to London would be a great service to have because Victoria will be more convient for people post northern hub and because it would create more capacity on Manchester-London services without causing more problems around Stockport. Perhaps Blackpool should be replaced with Liverpool (via Earlestown) it would mean a Liverpool - manchester slot wasnt wasted and maybe Victoria and Liverpool services could attach and detach at Warrington Bank Quay?

I imagine that would be less likely to get approved. The rejected application would have given 6 stations a new London service opposed to enhancing an existing one. It also would have allowed journeys between Yorkshire and WCML destinations other than Euston.

Your idea would add very few new journey opportunities in comparison to the rejected proposal.

 

[WatcherZero]

Primarily to not be abstractive they have to do something that increases users. This can be a significantly faster journey time (e.g express service), new destinations served, filling a timetable gap (e.g previously no sunday service or a three hour gap on weekdays between morning and evening services), or a step change in frequency. They only have to create one new passenger for evey two existing passengers carried on a proposed service.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Would getting rid of the Leeds-Victoria section be enough or does TPE need Victoria to Earlestown?....

TPE don't stop between Manchester Victoria and Liverpool, There scotish services don't even reach Newton-le-Willows.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I thought the ATP power cars were actually non tilt

They definitely tilted...

There was a mechanism to keep the pan level when the vehicle tilted and also this picture shows the PC tilting (3rd car - Pic traintesting.com)

EDIT. another pic showing all vehicles tilting (Pic traintesting.com)

 

[northwichcat]

TPE don't stop between Manchester Victoria and Liverpool, There scotish services don't even reach Newton-le-Willows.

I think Chester1 was referring to whether they TPE would need the path between Victoria and Earlestown that GNWR are proposing using opposed to TPE stopping there. The 6tph plan on North TPE includes a half-hourly Liverpool-Newcastle via Victoria service so TPE would need another path between Earlestown and Leeds via Victoria to implement that.