Out of date railcards: what should the policy be, and what measures could be taken to avoid problems in future?

[Adam Williams]

Since e-railcards can be scanned on trains by guards, I imagine it wouldn’t be too hard for a centralised system to check at least that the railcard number is valid. It also doesn’t take too much effort to introduce a check code if it comes to it, hell, some universities do it for student cards and even library cards.

Both of these things already exist, the former with a few limitations at present.

Rather than simply inaction on the part of the industry, there are quite a few consequences to think through with any changes that might be made in this area (which as ever on this forum are entirely glossed over by some posters). I will pose some questions:

• Am I allowed to purchase my extended-booking-horizon LNER tickets in August, when my railcard will have expired, to secure the best deal? I'm not allowed to renew my railcard today.
• Can I purchase tickets discounted for my friend/colleague/direct reports on their behalf, or in a corporate context? Do I need to collect railcard numbers from each and every one of them? Can railcards be added to multiple different accounts at the same time?
• The data associated with my station-purchased railcard wasn't recorded properly by the ticket office staff so when I try and verify my discount, it doesn't work. What do I do now? Who do I contact in order to rectify and be able to buy discounted tickets, as I am entitled to?
• If the details for the railcard type I am trying to use aren't actually in a database anywhere for anyone.. am I allowed to just skip the verification step?
• Will TVMs be validating railcards in the same way as apps and online web-based retailers? Will they start doing this at the same time as everyone else is? If not, why not?
• Have we collectively decided it'll no longer be permitted to buy tickets in advance of the railcard, for example - to travel at a later date and to get maximum railcard validity by buying the railcard later and having it expire later.

 

[Belperpete]

I may be missing something here, but I am fairly sure that when my railcard becomes due for renewal, I get an email from those nice people at the railcard website warning me (a bit like I get an email from my insurance company advising me that my insurance renewal is coming up). It is then up to me to take responsibility for renewing it. I appreciate that this probably only happens if you buy your railcard online, but surely the proportion of people buying their railcard at a booking office window must be steadily dwindling.

I don't know if they send a further reminder if you fail to renew it on time, as I have always done so.

 

[Fermiboson]

Both of these things already exist, the former with a few limitations at present.

Rather than simply inaction on the part of the industry, there are quite a few consequences to think through with any changes that might be made in this area (which as ever on this forum are entirely glossed over by some posters). I will pose some questions:

• Am I allowed to purchase my extended-booking-horizon LNER tickets in August, when my railcard will have expired, to secure the best deal? I'm not allowed to renew my railcard today.
• Can I purchase tickets discounted for my friend/colleague/direct reports on their behalf, or in a corporate context? Do I need to collect railcard numbers from each and every one of them? Can railcards be added to multiple different accounts at the same time?
• The data associated with my station-purchased railcard wasn't recorded properly by the ticket office staff so when I try and verify my discount, it doesn't work. What do I do now? Who do I contact in order to rectify and be able to buy discounted tickets, as I am entitled to?
• If the details for the railcard type I am trying to use aren't actually in a database anywhere for anyone.. am I allowed to just skip the verification step?
• Will TVMs be validating railcards in the same way as apps and online web-based retailers? Will they start doing this at the same time as everyone else is? If not, why not?
• Have we collectively decided it'll no longer be permitted to buy tickets in advance of the railcard, for example - to travel at a later date and to get maximum railcard validity by buying the railcard later and having it expire later.

- Yes. The system simply notes that the railcard will be expired and shows a warning, but does not prevent the purchaser from getting the ticket. Possibly, the tickets bought could then be flagged for barriers to reject (I imagine this would be easier to implement on e-tickets than paper tickets).
- Yes, yes, and yes.
- Same as if any product you bought from anywhere doesn’t work for any reason - customer support of the TOC/retailer that you bought the railcard from.
- Check codes could still be implemented for railcards which can’t be put on a database for whatever reason (what sorts of reasons are those? The only one I can imagine is sensitivity relating to a list of armed forces personnel for the HM Forces railcard, but presumably the MoD can keep that to themselves and provide limited database query capabilities.), so that typing in a random string of numbers doesn’t work; if there is actually no database or possible check at all applicable to said railcard, then how can staff verify the card is legit on the actual train?
- Ideally yes, but clearly TVMs already have trouble doing the basic job of printing tickets all over the network; so it may be a technical impossibility at present. Something is better than nothing in any case. If at some point we shift completely to e-railcards (which is a change I personally oppose for other reasons) then one could implement some sort of QR code scanner.
- This is the main issue I see here. I must confess I don’t personally see the point of allowing this, but other forum members may have more input on this.

I may be missing something here, but I am fairly sure that when my railcard becomes due for renewal, I get an email from those nice people at the railcard website warning me (a bit like I get an email from my insurance company advising me that my insurance renewal is coming up). It is then up to me to take responsibility for renewing it. I appreciate that this probably only happens if you buy your railcard online, but surely the proportion of people buying their railcard at a booking office window must be steadily dwindling.

I don't know if they send a further reminder if you fail to renew it on time, as I have always done so.

Like a lot of automated emails they tend to be unreliable. I certainly didn’t (and I looked through my spam folder, which has permanent history on, for the purpose of this post). It also often does not apply for the groups of people most vulnerable to making honest mistakes, newcomers to the country and less technologically savvy people.

 

[zero]

My view is: if you previously held a valid railcard and were eligible to renew at the time it expired, then when caught travelling on a discounted ticket for the same type of railcard, allow it to be renewed immediately for £100 with the new expiry date being 12 months from the previous expiry date - thus retrospectively validating travel for genuinely forgetful people.

I.e. a £70 "late renewal" penalty. This could be discretionally waived if the railcard expired say less than 3 days ago, and perhaps increased to £200 if it had expired 6-12 months ago.

If you can't pay on the spot, must provide ID for details to be recorded and give 2 weeks to pay. Allow use of discounted tickets already booked to complete the existing journey (to home/next destination) on the current and following day, but any further discounted travel before paying the penalty to be treated as evasion.



Recently I came across some foreign, native English speaking tourists who genuinely thought, based on not reading websites very thoroughly (partly because reading detailed text on a small phone screen is a bit more difficult) that there was a general 16-25 discount which only required ID with proof of age. Fortunatey they had not yet been caught and they were able to purchase the railcard at a station

 

[Fermiboson]

My view is: if you previously held a valid railcard and were eligible to renew at the time it expired, then when caught travelling on a discounted ticket for the same type of railcard, allow it to be renewed immediately for £100 with the new expiry date being 12 months from the previous expiry date - thus retrospectively validating travel for genuinely forgetful people.

How would that be materially different from issuing a PFN - which I understand is considered the typical way to handle this?

If you can't pay on the spot, must provide ID for details to be recorded and give 2 weeks to pay. Allow use of discounted tickets already booked to complete the existing journey (to home/next destination) on the current and following day, but any further discounted travel before paying the penalty to be treated as evasion.

Are they supposed to kick you off in the first place? I thought the approach was to give the option to get off at the next station or continue on to destination, and the price of the resultant journey you made would be added onto the PF/FPN/settlement/etc. Forcing people off for what is very plausibly a genuine mistake seems harsh - what if the journey was essential, e.g. to an important work meeting, or to a funeral/death of a person, back to school for a public examination? Would there be a case for claiming losses from the railway for any resulting financial/emotional damages if they did force you off like that?

Recently I came across some foreign, native English speaking tourists who genuinely thought, based on not reading websites very thoroughly (partly because reading detailed text on a small phone screen is a bit more difficult) that there was a general 16-25 discount which only required ID with proof of age. Fortunatey they had not yet been caught and they were able to purchase the railcard at a station

The way Ireland does it is that under the “young persons” category on the TVM, it states “only valid with young persons card etc etc”. Perhaps a similar thing could be done (“only valid for Railcard holders”) on the TVMs.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I don’t know about your experience, but in mine even if I do trust the browser enough to save my credit card details on it, website autofill forms often fill the wrong fields or simply do not work.

I honestly can't remember when I last got my card out to pay for something online. If the details are wrong the sale doesn't go through so it doesn't matter.

 

[swt_passenger]

I may be missing something here, but I am fairly sure that when my railcard becomes due for renewal, I get an email from those nice people at the railcard website warning me (a bit like I get an email from my insurance company advising me that my insurance renewal is coming up). It is then up to me to take responsibility for renewing it. I appreciate that this probably only happens if you buy your railcard online, but surely the proportion of people buying their railcard at a booking office window must be steadily dwindling.

There are plenty of forum members who insist that emailed reminders are marketing and shouldn’t be sent unless you opt in. This has come up in a number of previous versions of this thread. Personally I think that’s a strange view.

IIRC people have also objected to on screen reminders about having a valid railcard when standing at a TVM, as it takes an extra couple of seconds out of their busy day…

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Both of these things already exist, the former with a few limitations at present.

Rather than simply inaction on the part of the industry, there are quite a few consequences to think through with any changes that might be made in this area (which as ever on this forum are entirely glossed over by some posters). I will pose some questions:

• Am I allowed to purchase my extended-booking-horizon LNER tickets in August, when my railcard will have expired, to secure the best deal? I'm not allowed to renew my railcard today.
• Can I purchase tickets discounted for my friend/colleague/direct reports on their behalf, or in a corporate context? Do I need to collect railcard numbers from each and every one of them? Can railcards be added to multiple different accounts at the same time?
• The data associated with my station-purchased railcard wasn't recorded properly by the ticket office staff so when I try and verify my discount, it doesn't work. What do I do now? Who do I contact in order to rectify and be able to buy discounted tickets, as I am entitled to?
• If the details for the railcard type I am trying to use aren't actually in a database anywhere for anyone.. am I allowed to just skip the verification step?
• Will TVMs be validating railcards in the same way as apps and online web-based retailers? Will they start doing this at the same time as everyone else is? If not, why not?
• Have we collectively decided it'll no longer be permitted to buy tickets in advance of the railcard, for example - to travel at a later date and to get maximum railcard validity by buying the railcard later and having it expire later.

And those are all real, valid issues, but retailers could address the 90% problem - which is people leaving the railcard checkbox ticked after it's expired - without breaking any of those 0.1% use cases.

Let's take the absolute simplest UI, which is when you first buy a railcard-discounted ticket through the Railwayline app, it pops up a dialogue saying: "Please enter the expiry date of your Young Person's Railcard so we can remind you when it runs out." The date entry UI is pre-set to one year from now but you can set it to any other time in the future. You click "Ok". Maybe you don't read the text and you just click "Ok" to get the dialogue out the way. That's fine.

Then if you attempt to buy a ticket through the app for use after this expiry date, a dialogue appears with three buttons:

"The Railcard you first used on 12/04/2024 has expired.
- [I bought a new Railcard]
- [Go back and remove Railcard discount]
- [Buy ticket with Railcard discount anyway]"

Button 1 asks you for the new expiry date. Button 2 goes back to the journey-planning Activity/ViewController* with the discount removed. Button 3 just carries on.

It's one extra step once a year. It solves a real problem. It doesn't prevent any of the edge cases.

Let me give a parallel example. I noticed that on my website (a cycle route-planner), a non-negligible number of users were saving a route called something like "Home to work" or "Route home" or something like that, without ticking the "Make my route private" button. There are valid reasons to have "Home" in the name of a public route, of course: maybe you're going to the HOME theatre in Manchester, or you're going to see an exhibition by Stewart Home, or you're doing a bit of Strava art in the shape of Homer Simpson. Fine. Those are the 0.1% cases. The 90% case is "whoops I have disclosed my home location". So now, if you try and save a route with "home" in the title, it pops up an "Are you sure" alert akin to the one described here. It has solved the problem and people can still plan a route to HOME in Manchester if they want.

* no I don't like SwiftUI, why do you ask?

 

[Vespa]

Auto renewal would make life simpler.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Let's take the absolute simplest UI, which is when you first buy a railcard-discounted ticket through the Railwayline app, it pops up a dialogue saying: "Please enter the expiry date of your Young Person's Railcard so we can remind you when it runs out." The date entry UI is pre-set to one year from now but you can set it to any other time in the future. You click "Ok". Maybe you don't read the text and you just click "Ok" to get the dialogue out the way. That's fine.

Definitely don't preset it as most people won't check it's correct. Ask for it to be entered, and ask for the Railcard number too, as this discourages lying as people will think it is looked up. It's a couple of minutes once a year.

Auto renewal would make life simpler.

For Railcards where continued, unverified renewal is appropriate yes, but that's not all of them.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Definitely don't preset it as most people won't check it's correct. Ask for it to be entered, and ask for the Railcard number too, as this discourages lying as people will think it is looked up. It's a couple of minutes once a year.

Sure, but at that point you're adding non-negligible friction for marginal gains, and the retailers will complain. (You can't actually copy and paste the number from the Railcard app at the moment, at least on iOS, though of course that could be fixed.)

A dialogue which you can ignore, but which gives people the opportunity to do the right thing, makes it easier for people to avoid honest mistakes. It won't stop or even deter genuine abuse but I don't think that's the main issue here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sure, but at that point you're adding non-negligible friction for marginal gains, and the retailers will complain. (You can't actually copy and paste the number from the Railcard app at the moment, at least on iOS, though of course that could be fixed.)

A dialogue which you can ignore, but which gives people the opportunity to do the right thing, makes it easier for people to avoid honest mistakes. It won't stop or even deter genuine abuse but I don't think that's the main issue here.

I think you'll still get honest mistakes in the form of "it's a faff to fill that in now, I won't bother". Completion has to be mandatory to allow the ticket to be issued or downloaded for it to offer benefit.

 

[Adam Williams]

Auto renewal would make life simpler.

Auto renewal is already a thing

 

[Bletchleyite]

Auto renewal is already a thing

On which platform?

 

[Adam Williams]

On which platform?

I can't speak for RDG's implementation, but there's nothing stopping TPRs doing this.

As ever, it pays to shop around. You might find an organisation doing something innovative.

 

[43066]

Ultimately I reckon the current policy is about right. In many cases discretion will be shown for “honest mistakes”, but ultimately the onus is on those availing themselves of generous railcard discounts to ensure they’re valid and up to date. That isn’t rocket science, nor will it be remotely controversial to most people. I say that as someone with a priv card which if used incorrectly, when out of date etc. could land me in hot water with my employer.

This is such a typical "railway" attitude to take. Any industry that is genuinely trying to grow its customer base goes out of its way to make life easier for its customers, rather than more difficult and punitive. If it wanted to, the industry TISs could make very simple changes that would render the majority of the "saved expired railcard" issues we see on these boards redunant.

Arguably the railway is going out of its way to make life easier by offering railcards in the first place. Is there any evidence that the policy towards out of date railcards is deterring passengers?

 

[superkopite]

Arguably the railway is going out of its way to make life easier by offering railcards in the first place

This is purely a commercial decision by the industry and has in no way whatsoever made life "easier" for passengers

Is there any evidence that the policy towards out of date railcards is deterring passengers?

Yes, plenty of anecdotal evidence all over these forums and other public records that the Railway's punitive approach to customers who make unintentional mistakes leaves them with a bad taste in their mouths and more open to using other forms of transport

 

[43066]

This is purely a commercial decision by the industry and has in no way whatsoever made life "easier" for passengers

That strikes me as an odd view; how does saving people money not make their lives easier?

Yes, plenty of anecdotal evidence all over these forums and other public records that the Railway's punitive approach to customers who make unintentional mistakes leaves them with a bad taste in their mouths and more open to using other forms of transport

The complaints on here represent a tiny fraction of a % of overall passenger journeys, so are hardly representative. I’m not sure what other “public records” you’re referring to? On the other hand (Covid aside) passenger numbers grow every year, and the railway is regularly extremely overcrowded - the problem is more often too many passengers, rather than too few!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fundamentally it's not about who does favours to who, it's about the fact that humans by their nature make mistakes, and it's good customer service to accommodate those mistakes.

The railway however in my experience doesn't know what "good customer service" is at the moment - it's like Ryanair, but crushingly expensive.

 

[43066]

Fundamentally it's not about who does favours to who, it's about the fact that humans by their nature make mistakes, and it's good customer service to accommodate those mistakes.

The railway however in my experience doesn't know what "good customer service" is at the moment - it's like Ryanair, but crushingly expensive.

I agree with that, but something that’s generally ignored/forgotten on here is that those who have made honest mistakes are often shown discretion, as the guards I work with day in day out would confirm. The vast majority of cases which are taken further are the result of deliberate action, and abuse of rail card discounted tickets is rife.

I also fundamentally dislike Ryanair (I’m flying with them in a few weeks, sadly, as they’re the only airline flying at the dates and times we need), however they also aren’t exactly short of repeat business.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also fundamentally dislike Ryanair (I’m flying with them in a few weeks, sadly, as they’re the only airline flying at the dates and times we need), however they also aren’t exactly short of repeat business.

They aren't, but that's not an excuse for a business to be customer-unfriendly. A good business is customer-friendly because it's right to be so.

 

[43066]

They aren't, but that's not an excuse for a business to be customer-unfriendly. A good business is customer-friendly because it's right to be so.

The railway is friendly than Ryanair, in my experience. Just so long as your railcard is up to date .

 

[island]

Does GDPR compel a retailer to divulge all the data held on a given customer, without any court warrant/order?

It does not.

If requested by the police, but not simply by a TOC.

Retailers are entitled, but not compelled, to disclose ticket purchasers' personal data to TOCs if they have included in their privacy statement the fact that this might happen. Not necessarily all of it, but certainly enough to prosecute. I checked five retailers selected at random just now and all have included forms of words which seem to me sufficient to permit this disclosure. A data controller which did not include this fact in their privacy policy would be on thin ice to disclose the data to a TOC, but could disclose it to the police.

The situation that led to this post arose from LNER investigating sales history on their own website, so no "disclosure" arose in any event.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The railway is friendly than Ryanair in my experience, just so long as your railcard is up to date .

I don't find it is now. Partly because the staff are unhappy, it's a horrible place at the moment in my experience. Maybe just my bit of it, though, but that's not my impression. I haven't come away with a good impression of the entirety of a rail journey for a very long time now. Whereas I usually do of, for instance, an easyJet flight.

 

[43066]

I don't find it is now. Partly because the staff are unhappy, it's a horrible place at the moment in my experience. Maybe just my bit of it, though, but that's not my impression. I haven't come away with a good impression of the entirety of a rail journey for a very long time now.

That’s a pity - perhaps partly because you’re regularly using Euston? The atmosphere is a little toxic at the moment, and while that shouldn’t feed through to interactions between staff and passengers, it would be naive to suggest it doesn’t on occasion.

Most staff where I am are just getting on with the day job, relations with management remain cordial, and the service is generally hanging together pretty well. Let’s hope for an improvement after the election.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Retailers are entitled, but not compelled, to disclose ticket purchasers' personal data to TOCs if they have included in their privacy statement the fact that this might happen. Not necessarily all of it, but certainly enough to prosecute. I checked five retailers selected at random just now and all have included forms of words which seem to me sufficient to permit this disclosure. A data controller which did not include this fact in their privacy policy would be on thin ice to disclose the data to a TOC, but could disclose it to the police.

The situation that led to this post arose from LNER investigating sales history on their own website, so no "disclosure" arose in any event.

It would be an odd retailer who didn't cooperate, after all they're likely to need cooperation back at some point. If you've been awkward with someone they'll be awkward back to you. I suspect they all give requested information when asked and it's permitted.

 

[Vespa]

Auto renewal is already a thing

Really, I've never seen any such thing otherwise we wouldn't be hearing so much about expired railcard in disputes and prosecutions.

I can't speak for RDG's implementation, but there's nothing stopping TPRs doing this.

As ever, it pays to shop around. You might find an organisation doing something innovative.

Notice no Disabled railcards on the list.

 

[Adam Williams]

Notice no Disabled railcards on the list.

Yeah, I think the FAQ is fairly clear on the absence of that one.

I am hopeful these restrictions will change one day, but it's not held back by lack of interest on Raileasy's part.

 

[Belperpete]

I can't speak for RDG's implementation, but there's nothing stopping TPRs doing this.

As ever, it pays to shop around. You might find an organisation doing something innovative.

Unfortunately they only appear to be offering digital railcards, not physical ones. I trust them about as much as I do digital tickets.

By comparison, I obtained my over 65s Railcard in Prague today. All I had to do was turn up with my passport and a photo, and 60 Cz, and 5 minutes later the railcard was in my hand. And it is valid for life, no need to renew it (in theory at least - it is only card not plastic).

 

[redreni]

I would be completely against anything that requires the purchaser to demonstrate that they possess the relevant Railcard at the time of ticket purchase, because they're not required to. They just have to possess it by the time they travel. So any revenue protection check on the Railcard has to be done when the passenger (who may or may not be the same person as the purchaser) travels.

The openness of the system to revenue loss through forgetfulness or dishonesty is in large part of the railway's making - they're the ones who got rid of guards on most commuter services. They're the ones who replaced manual ticket checks with automatic barriers that don't check railcards (and when they are set to reject railcard-discounted tickets for a manual check, you just show your ticket to staff and they let you through without ever - in my experience - asking to see the railcard). It is entirely the industry's fault and the industry's problem.

They should address it by doing their very best to distinguish between forgetfulness and dishonesty, dealing with each in a proportionate way.

I quite like zero's idea of allowing the option of a retrospective renewal which would cost more than the normal railcard fee, for passengers found to be travelling on an expired railcard. I doubt many would go for it if it cost £70 extra, though? It might be cheaper to just say you didn't have a railcard and get fined, mightn't it? It's also far too punitive for those who were just forgetful. I wouldn't object to a reasonable admin fee (£10?) for an on-the-spot renewal, plus the disadvantage of having to backdate it to the day after the old one expired when the customer may not have travelled on a discounted ticket in that period. If dishonesty is evident just do the normal thing for fare evasion. There should always be a good reason for suspecting dishonesty, though - not just that the RPI is in a bad mood and/or doesn't like the look of the person.

In terms of reducing the likelihood of the forgetfulness cases happening in the first place I certainly think online retailers that allow customers to save their railcard discount to their account so that discounted tickets, where available, will always be issued without having to be entered each time, should ask for the expiry date and warn the customer if they're attempting to buy a discounted ticket where the travel date is after the railcard expiry date. But it needs to be possible to click through the warning and proceed as the ticket could be for somebody else or the customer may intend to buy or renew the railcard before travelling. Requiring the customer to provide the railcard number is a no-no in my book too, for the same reason. It's no answer to say they should wait until they have the railcard to buy the ticket - the differences in ticket cost can be enormous depending on when you book and it is unfair to expect somebody to pay for a railcard which they're not going to start using straight away just in order to buy the ticket.

It might also help if ticket office clerks were trained, when they sell a railcard, politely to suggest (as I'm sure some already do) that the customer sets a reminder in their phone calendar so they don't forget when it's due to expire. Online railcard retailers could (if they don't already) suggest that customers either do this themselves or opt for an email reminder (this could probably be done as a pre-checked option that the customer has to deselect if they don't want the reminder). Thinking about it, ticket offices could probably also offer an email reminder service as I seem to recall they have to take contact details and punch them in as part of the selling process.