Paper tickets

[AlterEgo]

I really don’t get this , when did Ryanair last offer to print your ticket at the airport for free? We’re off to Orlando soon and I’m pretty sure Virgin won’t print my tickets at Heathrow

They will. Nearly all full service airlines print boarding passes, often out of necessity. I get one on nearly every trip.

 

[Wallsendmag]

They will. Nearly all full service airlines print boarding passes, often out of necessity. I get one on nearly every trip.

That's not a ticket though is it ?

 

[Skymonster]

This is possibly a silly question, but is it not possible to buy tickets in advance as paper tickets anymore?

Looking at EMR’s website and the only options are E-ticket or smart card ones.

To me it looks suspiciously like paper tickets are still available through the EMR website

 

[pelli]

To me it looks suspiciously like paper tickets are still available through the EMR website

On my laptop, I see the same thing as you when using a full-size browser window, from the desktop site https://buytickets.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/ , but if I reduce the browser window size by half before making the journey search then I instead get the mobile site https://m.buytickets.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/ which does not offer the paper ticket option (see attached screenshot). Similarly, on my mobile phone I get the mobile site by default, but if I go into the Chrome browser settings and tick "desktop site" before making the search then I get the desktop site with the option of a paper ticket. The EMR mobile app looks similar to the mobile site and does not offer the paper ticket either.

 

[AlterEgo]

That's not a ticket though is it ?

No but an airline ticket is not the same as a boarding pass in that you don’t actually need it to travel.

Quite unlike rail tickets which you are required to furnish to someone to travel. The equivalent airline thing to a rail ticket is a boarding pass. And yes, Virgin Atlantic will print one for you, and no, you will not need to bring your *ticket*.

 

[skyhigh]

Having to stand aside just before the barrier, get out the phone from a safe pocket in my coat or bag, get the correct screen up, enter before the screen turns off, stand aside again and put the phone safely away all while ensuring neither the luggage or the phone is snatched. When making a transfer across-London or e.g. Birmingham New Street long distance to local platforms potentially the difference between just making a connection if the incoming train is late and not.

Similarly I also see people getting to the barriers and searching through their pockets/wallet/bags to find their paper ticket. I don't think that's a particular disadvantage of e-tickets

When I buy railway eTickets, the PDF I get invariably puts only one ticket on each page even if multiple would fit, so more pages than necessary are being distributed. This means that unless the customer is of the mind to open a Word document and copy screenshots of the ticket in there to fit them all onto one page - rather than just hitting print on the PDF, which is what most people will do - more pages are being printed than necessary.

Though if a group is not necessarily going through the barriers together, it's beneficial to have the tickets on separate pages- and it's easier to issue separately and allow people to print them on the same page if required (as demonstrated above)

 

[CaptainHaddock]

As I've pointed out on similar threads before, e-tickets are a classic case of the rail industry trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

The great thing about paper tickets is that they're credit card sized so fit easily in your wallet, they have all the information you require printed on them and you don't need to have a fully charged smartphone or internet access to ensure they're valid. It's all very well saying "you can print an e-ticket" but on a wet and windy day you don't really want to be messing about with A4 sheets of paper at the ticket barrier and holding up the queue behind you.

I've just had four weeks without access to a smartphone (long story but my old one died and the new one I wanted was out of stock). If my only option was an e-ticket I would have been unable to travel on the rail network for the best part of a month. By all means give people the option of e-tickets but not at the expense of those of us who find paper tickets much more convenient.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I've pointed out on similar threads before, e-tickets are a classic case of the rail industry trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Nonsense, frankly.

The problem does exist - people do not want to spend any time at all at the station obtaining a ticket. They want to walk straight to the platform. E-tickets, which are hugely popular, solve that problem.

Yesterday I made a journey on a paper ticket. I am pretty sure I was the only person in my coach who had one.

The great thing about paper tickets is that they're credit card sized so fit easily in your wallet, they have all the information you require printed on them and you don't need to have a fully charged smartphone or internet access to ensure they're valid. It's all very well saying "you can print an e-ticket" but on a wet and windy day you don't really want to be messing about with A4 sheets of paper at the ticket barrier and holding up the queue behind you.

Fold it or cut it out, and you get something that nicely fits the notes slot of your wallet.

I've just had four weeks without access to a smartphone (long story but my old one died and the new one I wanted was out of stock). If my only option was an e-ticket I would have been unable to travel on the rail network for the best part of a month. By all means give people the option of e-tickets but not at the expense of those of us who find paper tickets much more convenient.

Nobody is proposing that the option of purchasing a ticket at the station should end. What is being said is that booking online means online delivery, as per almost every other transport operator that does booking online other than premium airlines and some ferries.

 

[Haywain]

e-tickets are a classic case of the rail industry trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

It may be a problem that doesn't exist for you, but it is a problem for plenty of people. There are many, many customers who far prefer to get their ticket instantly and carry it in their chosen format. And for the industry it contains much more information than a mag stripe ticket which relies on 1980s technology and is not suited to the needs of the 21st century.

 

[Ken H]

Nonsense, frankly.

The problem does exist - people do not want to spend any time at all at the station obtaining a ticket. They want to walk straight to the platform. E-tickets, which are hugely popular, solve that problem.

Yesterday I made a journey on a paper ticket. I am pretty sure I was the only person in my coach who had one.



Fold it or cut it out, and you get something that nicely fits the notes slot of your wallet.



Nobody is proposing that the option of purchasing a ticket at the station should end. What is being said is that booking online means online delivery, as per almost every other transport operator that does booking online other than premium airlines and some ferries.

Whats wrong with book on t'internet and use a automatic machine to print at the station. Then i have a card ticket. Which is what i want.

 

[ChrisC]

I’m one of those people who has always refused to use e-tickets for all the reasons given in this thread. My biggest fear was always the battery on my phone not lasting but most of the other reasons given I would also have agreed with. I also would not use any daily or weekly bus tickets on my phone and always preferred paper or smart card tickets.

Last October I was travelling down from Nottinghamshire to Cornwall and saw that I could save quite a bit of money by splitting tickets at a number of places. I’ve done this before on a complicated journey and used Trainsplit but always opted for paper tickets. You do get quite a pile of tickets with all the reservations too. This time, somewhat reluctantly, I decided I would risk it and try an e-ticket. I found it so fantastically easy and although I did print off the tickets using the pdf just in case of problems with my phone, I never used the printed copy and used the tickets on my phone for the whole journey.

Since then I’ve never looked back and almost always use e-tickets as it’s so much easier. I’ve also not used paper tickets on buses since then and now always use day and weekly bus tickets on my phone. I’m converted and definitely, like others in this forum, would recommend using Trainsplit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It may be a problem that doesn't exist for you, but it is a problem for plenty of people. There are many, many customers who far prefer to get their ticket instantly and carry it in their chosen format. And for the industry it contains much more information than a mag stripe ticket which relies on 1980s technology and is not suited to the needs of the 21st century.

I must admit that one fear I have on e-tickets is that we end up in a situation where a guard passes a ticket, but later on a prosecution letter shows up because of an off-route scan, for instance, or the example of a passenger using a ticket in the wrong order by mistake on another thread.

 

[Haywain]

I must admit that one fear I have on e-tickets is that we end up in a situation where a guard passes a ticket, but later on a prosecution letter shows up because of an off-route scan, for instance, or the example of a passenger using a ticket in the wrong order by mistake on another thread.

The idea that the industry will be checking every ticket scan is just fanciful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The idea that the industry will be checking every ticket scan is just fanciful.

By hand no, but this sort of thing is very easy to do using "big data" by querying the database on a larger scale to establish patterns (such as people doing it a lot) and then identify those cases to humans to investigate properly. Is the rail industry skilled enough in IT to do that...well, I wonder?

Of course once we move to fully online verification of e-tickets (10 years maybe, for better coverage?) scanning the return half and it being accepted (so not mistakenly scanning it at the origin) could of course automatically cancel the outbound. Though hopefully by then single-fare pricing will have got rid of the whole issue.

 

[py_megapixel]

Of course once we move to fully online verification of e-tickets (10 years maybe, for better coverage?) scanning the return half and it being accepted (so not mistakenly scanning it at the origin) could of course automatically cancel the outbound.

Or alternatively, the restriction on using returns the wrong way round - which many members of the public don't know exists anyway - could just be removed as a quick fix. There is literally no reason for it to exist.

Though hopefully by then single-fare pricing will have got rid of the whole issue.

Indeed.

 

[AlterEgo]

Whats wrong with book on t'internet and use a automatic machine to print at the station. Then i have a card ticket. Which is what i want.

I don’t really see why people can’t have that, although there should be a nominal fee of 20p to compensate for the wasteful method of delivery.

 

[Haywain]

There is literally no reason for it to exist.

Except where directional pricing is applied - such as most peak time journeys on the SWR routes and between London and Cambridge.

Is the rail industry skilled enough in IT to do that...well, I wonder?

The challenges to that would be more around the complications of identifying what is or isn't off route!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t really see why people can’t have that, although there should be a nominal fee of 20p to compensate for the wasteful method of delivery.

It causes a lot of issues, such as when they aren't issued correctly, and fixing those issues properly is a bit complex and expensive.

 

[py_megapixel]

It causes a lot of issues, such as when they aren't issued correctly, and fixing those issues properly is a bit complex and expensive.

I think that's the case for current TOD because the ticket numbers aren't suitably unique so care needs to be taken to ensure that each ticket purchased online only results in a single ticket printed.

In contrast, eTickets have unique numbers, so it doesn't matter if multiple copies exist: any given ticket can only be used once. This means that if a "printing kiosk" (which would only have to be an Android device connected to a till printer) fails to print the ticket properly, then it is no issue to simply let the user try again or use a different one.

Besides, it's not like eTickets in digital form aren't issued incorrectly - for example, FirstGroup operators' apps have been incorrectly putting text about non-existent break-of-journey restrictions into eTickets for quite a while now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that's the case for current TOD because the ticket numbers aren't suitably unique so care needs to be taken to ensure that each ticket purchased online only results in a single ticket printed.

In contrast, eTickets have unique numbers, so it doesn't matter if multiple copies exist: any given ticket can only be used once. This means that if a "printing kiosk" (which would only have to be an Android device connected to a till printer) fails to print the ticket properly, then it is no issue to simply let the user try again or use a different one.

Besides, it's not like eTickets in digital form aren't issued incorrectly - for example, FirstGroup operators' apps have been incorrectly putting text about non-existent break-of-journey restrictions into eTickets for quite a while now.

That's true. I could see a benefit in allowing reprints of e-tickets at a TVM, perhaps for a small fee e.g. £1 to discourage people from choosing that option other than as a last resort. This would allow for "refuseniks" to have a paper ticket, it'd just be a piece of till roll with a barcode on it so much cheaper to issue and no magstripe kit needed at gatelines any more.

If a fee wasn't charged, it would be handy if it could be retrieved by multiple methods, e.g. not just the card and booking reference, but also perhaps booker's first and last name, from, to and departure time of the first booked train (which would be things people would likely remember but would be enough that people couldn't pull tickets speculatively/for a laugh/for fraud). That way it would be possible to retrieve the ticket if e.g. one had been mugged and been left with nothing at all, and perhaps contain an option to cancel the old one.

 

[trainophile]

It would be good if they could put the barcode/QR code on the confirmation email. I don’t think they do that already do they? You could make a folder exclusively for your bookings so you wouldn’t accidentally delete it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be good if they could put the barcode/QR code on the confirmation email. I don’t think they do that already do they? You could make a folder exclusively for your bookings so you wouldn’t accidentally delete it.

They don't, but they do email you the e-ticket as a PDF which can be stored by just storing the e-mail and viewed (downloaded locally into) Acrobat Reader or similar.

An alternative is to use Google Drive to store the actual PDFs, and you can flag files as "store locally" for use offline.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Is there a standard barcode algoritm for tickets on the various ToCs?

If a worldwide air travel industry can manage it (for boarding passes), it shouldn't be too hard for a national rail network.

I have a free App for boarding passes (Flight Pass) and it works with any carrier, its a really great tool.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there a standard barcode algoritm for tickets on the various ToCs?

Yes, e-tickets are an RDG standard using AZTEC barcodes.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Yes, e-tickets are an RDG standard using AZTEC barcodes.

Someone should design an App for these similar to Flight Pass.

 

[Haywain]

Someone should design an App for these similar to Flight Pass.

Why is an app needed? Apple Wallet and Google Pay work perfectly well.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

On my laptop, I see the same thing as you when using a full-size browser window, from the desktop site https://buytickets.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/ , but if I reduce the browser window size by half before making the journey search then I instead get the mobile site https://m.buytickets.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/ which does not offer the paper ticket option (see attached screenshot). Similarly, on my mobile phone I get the mobile site by default, but if I go into the Chrome browser settings and tick "desktop site" before making the search then I get the desktop site with the option of a paper ticket. The EMR mobile app looks similar to the mobile site and does not offer the paper ticket either.

Thank you! I don’t have access to a computer any more, just a phone and occasionally a tablet. I didn’t think to try requesting the desktop version of the website (or setting it to force the desktop version). My immediate problem is solved, thank you.

 

[m_m]

I don't like non-paper tickets as I feel they track me more, and I don't like the idea of yet another organisation tracking my every move. Having read several disputes about digital tickets and the use of 'older' data to identify trends that 'look fraudulent' to TOCs, I'm afraid I don't really trust the industry in this regard. I also don't like the idea of having a ticket as my phone battery may die, so the paper ticket is the better option for me and I don't have to bother printing it myself.

I'll stick to paper for as long as I can - appreciate that everything can ultimately be traced, but why carry around yet another tracking code with you when you don't need to.

 

[Haywain]

I don't like non-paper tickets as I feel they track me more, and I don't like the idea of yet another organisation tracking my every move. Having read several disputes about digital tickets and the use of 'older' data to identify trends that 'look fraudulent' to TOCs, I'm afraid I don't really trust the industry in this regard. I also don't like the idea of having a ticket as my phone battery may die, so the paper ticket is the better option for me and I don't have to bother printing it myself.

I'll stick to paper for as long as I can - appreciate that everything can ultimately be traced, but why carry around yet another tracking code with you when you don't need to.

You’ve heard about CCTV?

 

[JonathanH]

You’ve heard about CCTV?

While face recognition can be used with CCTV, there is still a disconnect between the event of being videoed and an investigation.

For example, I put a paper ticket through a barrier as a test and got a '125' error code last weekend. I suspect no one will follow it up and they would have to go through a whole load of CCTV to identify me which probably wouldn't be worth it. I didn't actually leave the station.

If that had been an e-ticket, it would be possible to link that '125' error back to me and automatically prosecute if the authorities were doing a cracking down on people presenting invalid tickets at ticket gates.

125 = TOC ticket destination is not valid for exit here

(My view was that the ticket was valid but others could take a different view.)