Parking on Pavements (DfT consultation Sept 2020)

[AM9]

Currently, there is a general prohibition on parking vehicles on the pavements of the public highway in the London area (I assume that is those boroughs in the GLA). Unfortunately, there is no similar constraint in the rest of England, with the consequence that there is extensive abuse of pedestrians' right of way. This affects everybodys ability to use the public highway and in many case severely impairs acces to residences etc.. The effect on those with wheelchairs and other mobility devices can be devastating.
There is a growing head of steam to introduce legislation extending the right of local authorities to prohibit such behaviour in the rest of England. Assuming that LAs take up a new power, what impact do you think it will have on a) residential car use and b) delivery van driving?

 

[ComUtoR]

There are places where you have to park half on and half off. Some streets have signs where this is required. The problem with some of these roads is that to park completely on the road will prevent other cars from passing.

 

[lachlan]

There are places where you have to park half on and half off. Some streets have signs where this is required. The problem with some of these roads is that to park completely on the road will prevent other cars from passing.

In this case, park further away. People who need use of a car (disabled folks) can have marked bays. Roads can be converted to one way to add space for parking.

As for deliveries, we can set aside bays allowing them to park temporarily without blocking the pavement.

 

[ainsworth74]

I certainly agree that pavement parking is something needs tackling. I've seen car drivers block the entire pavement such that it was impossible to pass their car without going onto the road.

But, my concern is that there's a lot of streets where if everyone suddenly started parking on the road and not putting a bit of their car on the pavement the road becomes to narrow certainly for large vehicles like council bin wagons but even smaller vehicles like some cars.

I had a look at my street a few months ago when the consultation was running. On my street everyone parks with one set of wheels on the pavement. This still leaves enough room for wheelchairs and prams (indeed I've seen them go by the residents cars!) and leaves enough room for large vehicles to squeeze through and cars to drive normally. If everyone parked only on the road I doubt the bin wagon or delivery lorries would get through and it would start to be a squeeze for cars.

I don't know what the answer is particularly but I do worry we're going to throw the baby out with the bathwater if we have a knee jerk reaction (i.e. I'm not sure anyone is served particularly well if we can no longer collect bins for instance!). Perhaps one solution to balance both users needs would be to mark on pavements (where the roads aren't wide enough to allow for everyone to park on the road without access restrictions) the limit of where a car can park. Put a bit of wheel or body over the line and your liable to whatever penalty is chosen. The marking would obviously give priority to the pedestrian users (seeing as it's their space that's being impinged on!) and ensure that they have enough room.

I suppose, in many respect, this is planning decisions and estate building practices over the years coming home to roost. If estates had been built with roads large enough for people to park their cars fully on the road then this wouldn't be such an issue...

 

[furnessvale]

Cars parked on footpaths tend to get accidentally scratched by passing prams etc.

 

[ainsworth74]

In this case, park further away.

I don't think I'd be able to park in my village anymore in that case!! There's three small car parks in the whole place, one for the small strip of shops in the centre, another that the pub and the church to share and a final one for the local club to use. Probably parking for maybe eighty cars total between them. The rest of the place is all residential streets and parking fully on the road on most of them would cause serious access issues for everything from bin wagons, to deliveries, to fire engines and ambulances.

As for deliveries, we can set aside bays allowing them to park temporarily without blocking the pavement.

Certainly where I am the issue is I don't think they'd be able to access many of the roads anymore full stop to deliver things rather than where they park whilst delivering.

 

[furnessvale]

I suppose, in many respect, this is planning decisions and estate building practices over the years coming home to roost. If estates had been built with roads large enough for people to park their cars fully on the road then this wouldn't be such an issue...

Roads are for driving cars along, not for abandoning them. On the road I live, every house has a drive which can accommodate one car. Sadly, many houses have two cars, one even has three.

When I was young and living in a terraced house, my father bought an old van. Before even considering this purchase he organised proper off road garaging. Had this not been available we wouldn't have had the van. Nowadays, it seems to be a God given right to own a car and expect the public highway in front of your house to be your own parking lot.

 

[ComUtoR]

In this case, park further away.

You can't push the problem around. All that would do is generate congestion in other areas, concentrate pollution, and cause all kinds of friction between neighbourhoods.

People who need use of a car (disabled folks) can have marked bays. Roads can be converted to one way to add space for parking.

As for deliveries, we can set aside bays allowing them to park temporarily without blocking the pavement.

Which is the elephant in the room. There is NO space available. The pavement/kerb parking is because you can't fit cars past. If you created bays or widened roads, you will have to cut this out of the pavement and in some places remove the pavement all together. Would you support only having paving on one side of the street ? Converting to one way fails to consider that a lot of the issues are in side streets and no through roads.

There are too many places where it just isn't practical and pavement/kerb parking is a necessity.

 

[joncombe]

The system in London seems perfectly sensible, where signs permit pavement parking in marked bays where there is a need and sufficient space for it without blocking the pavement and banned otherwise. As long as restrictions are applied sensibly (a big ask perhaps) then I welcome it. Too many people see pavements (and grass verges) as a car park even when there is no need as there is somewhere safe and legal to park within 30 seconds walk or the road is wide enough it's unnecessary.

 

[ainsworth74]

Roads are for driving cars along, not for abandoning them. On the road I live, every house has a drive which can accommodate one car. Sadly, many houses have two cars, one even has three.

We have two cars. Not sure it would be fully practical to only have one considering public transport around here and the differing schedules that we have! We do have a drive (which I use) and a garage but the problem with the garage is that it's too small to fit a modern car. Even my 08 plate Fiesta (which isn't exactly a large car) is to large for the garage. It would physically fit but would then require crawling out through the boot to exit or enter which wouldn't exactly be practical...

The system in London seems perfectly sensible, where signs permit pavement parking in marked bays where there is a need and sufficient space for it without blocking the pavement and banned otherwise. As long as restrictions are applied sensibly (a big ask perhaps) then I welcome it. Too many people see pavements (and grass verges) as a car park even when there is no need as there is somewhere safe and legal to park within 30 seconds walk or the road is wide enough it's unnecessary.

Yes that's what I was thinking might work well on a larger scale.

 

[RichT54]

Some of the houses on the road where I live have drives, but many like mine just have a small front garden without fences. A couple of years ago visitors to my next door neighbour started driving across the edge of my lawn, completely wearing away the grass. I even found one woman parking her car so that about 75% of it was actually on my lawn. When I asked her why, she said she didn't know where else to park! I eventually made a "Do not drive on the garden" sign and attached it to a bamboo cane. This did stop the incursions, but several times I found the cane had been broken off at the base and had to be replaced. After a few months I removed the sign and it seems they have finally got the message!

 

[bramling]

Currently, there is a general prohibition on parking vehicles on the pavements of the public highway in the London area (I assume that is those boroughs in the GLA). Unfortunately, there is no similar constraint in the rest of England, with the consequence that there is extensive abuse of pedestrians' right of way. This affects everybodys ability to use the public highway and in many case severely impairs acces to residences etc.. The effect on those with wheelchairs and other mobility devices can be devastating.
There is a growing head of steam to introduce legislation extending the right of local authorities to prohibit such behaviour in the rest of England. Assuming that LAs take up a new power, what impact do you think it will have on a) residential car use and b) delivery van driving?

There’s places where it’s the “done thing” and if that’s what the local residents choose to do then it may well be for the best both for their convenience and for traffic flow. If you have a rural terrace of houses on a busy road then it’s a sensible thing to do.

However I agree that something should be done about the stereotypical fat Patsi who can’t be bothered to find somewhere proper to park.

Unfortunately a blanket approach is not suitable here as there are cases where pavement parking may well be the most sensible solution in a given location whilst at other times be completely inappropriate.

 

[AM9]

I certainly agree that pavement parking is something needs tackling. I've seen car drivers block the entire pavement such that it was impossible to pass their car without going onto the road.

But, my concern is that there's a lot of streets where if everyone suddenly started parking on the road and not putting a bit of their car on the pavement the road becomes to narrow certainly for large vehicles like council bin wagons but even smaller vehicles like some cars.

I had a look at my street a few months ago when the consultation was running. On my street everyone parks with one set of wheels on the pavement. This still leaves enough room for wheelchairs and prams (indeed I've seen them go by the residents cars!) and leaves enough room for large vehicles to squeeze through and cars to drive normally. If everyone parked only on the road I doubt the bin wagon or delivery lorries would get through and it would start to be a squeeze for cars.

I don't know what the answer is particularly but I do worry we're going to throw the baby out with the bathwater if we have a knee jerk reaction (i.e. I'm not sure anyone is served particularly well if we can no longer collect bins for instance!). Perhaps one solution to balance both users needs would be to mark on pavements (where the roads aren't wide enough to allow for everyone to park on the road without access restrictions) the limit of where a car can park. Put a bit of wheel or body over the line and your liable to whatever penalty is chosen. The marking would obviously give priority to the pedestrian users (seeing as it's their space that's being impinged on!) and ensure that they have enough room.

I suppose, in many respect, this is planning decisions and estate building practices over the years coming home to roost. If estates had been built with roads large enough for people to park their cars fully on the road then this wouldn't be such an issue...

You have captured the whole issue there. London has managed for over 50 years to prevent (most) pedestrian space being regarded as an extension to roads for motorists' convenience. If the law for the rest of England is changed, it will be up to local authorities to apply it. As you have said, it is their inadequately applying of planning powers that has created the design of roads that can't deal with expected parking. That fact will not be l;ost on those who regularly struggle to use the footpath provided for them.
However, nobody can claim that London has proportionately more spacious roads, it's just that when looking for places to live, most there also consider where their vehicles will live before they move, not pretend that it isn't their respopnsibility. There are many in London that don't have the facility to park so (shock, horror) they have to do without their beloved car. This may be the decision that many more have to make. If local transport doesn't suit them then either the local authority will encourage providers to deliver a service, or they will have to seek another location where parking isn't restricted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately a blanket approach is not suitable here as there are cases where pavement parking may well be the most sensible solution in a given location whilst at other times be completely inappropriate.

My take on it is thus.

1. We announce now that pavement parking will be banned from, say, 1/1/2022.
2. A definition is made of pavements which can have marked bays added to them or be modified to create bays, for instance a minimum width of the larger of the largest commonly-used type of wheelchair or double buggy, or those pavements which are not used for access due to their location (there's one by me that serves no purpose for instance).
3. Councils are required to open applications for the painting of pavement bays to a standard format (e.g. in Italy it's blue boxes). They are mandated to apply the criteria in (2) for any application and cannot vary them, and cannot decline the work for any reason other than failure to meet those criteria. Funding is provided for this from national taxation.
4. This work is done over that period.
5. The ban goes live.

With regard to terraced housing areas where this can be a particular problem, I would propose one-way systems with herringbone parking bays on one side is the best way to go.

 

[AndrewE]

There’s places where it’s the “done thing” and if that’s what the local residents choose to do then it may well be for the best both for their convenience and for traffic flow. If you have a rural terrace of houses on a busy road then it’s a sensible thing to do.
However I agree that something should be done about the stereotypical fat Patsi who can’t be bothered to find somewhere proper to park.
Unfortunately a blanket approach is not suitable here as there are cases where pavement parking may well be the most sensible solution in a given location whilst at other times be completely inappropriate.

Oh no it's not! There might be some places where the pavement is so wide that a parking bay could be marked out, but in general I support a ban on parking (even encroaching on) pavements. Most of the damage and danger from tripping comes from paving slabs broken by vans parking on pavements.
This https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-51801370 is also a good reason why it should be banned:

A blind man walking with his guide dog was punched repeatedly when he asked a van driver to move off the pavement to enable him to pass.
Tony Webb, 73, was attacked in Bishop's Stortford in Hertfordshire at about 09:00 GMT on Sunday.

His daughter posted a photograph of his black eye which has been shared by more than 15,000 people on social media.
She said he was recovering at home but was very shaken and was "petrified" of going outside.

Tracy Hassell, who said her father can see some light and dark, wrote on Facebook: "My blind dad was attacked in Bishop's Stortford town centre this morning at 9am by a man... who was parked on the pavement in a white van."
She told the BBC: "Dad asked the driver if he would move so he and Sammy, his guide dog, could get past, but the man said 'no'.

"Dad asked him again and said it was out of order to park on the pavement, and the next thing he knew he was pushed up against the van - he thinks he was punched three times in his eye.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-51801370 is also a good reason why it should be banned:

No, that's a reason why people who punch people should be prosecuted for assault/ABH/GBH.

 

[The Lad]

Current planning round here requires new homes to have two car spaces off road one of which may be a garage, but doesn't stop you converting the garage to another room, that's if it was ever possible to use it as a garage.

 

[AndrewE]

No, that's a reason why people who punch people should be prosecuted for assault/ABH/GBH.

True, but like wearing seatbelts or the smoking ban it needs a sea-change in public attitudes, and blanket legislation will help that when the rest of the ducks are all lined up.

 

[Tom B]

The difference in attitudes between cities and towns is very stark here. In my area of London, parking is residents only with marked out bays and parking outwith those bays will attract the attention of the parking wardens. If there is no parking right by your house, you must park further away and walk back. Simple. I've never had to walk further than 3 minutes.
In certain provincial areas it seems to be a god given right to park as many vehicles as desired right outside their own house, and stuff everybody else, and on the rare occasion you get a ticket go and complain to the local paper!

 

[Bletchleyite]

London, of course, having had the ban for a long time, has those bays marked where appropriate. The provinces don't. Doing it without doing that part would create major problems.

 

[DarloRich]

My street ( generally terraced small 2/3 bed houses) has a resident permit scheme but not marked bays. There are more cars than spaces. That goes for all the streets in my area. Many houses have more than one car and with some used as Houses In Multiple Occupation there might be more than 2. Pavement parking is the only option not only to be close to home but to actually park up. Where are the cars going to go?

PLEASE don't suggest star trek fantasies about banning cars. Can we try to be practical? If we ban pavement parking where will the cars go? Please advise...........

 

[Meerkat]

3. Councils are required to open applications for the painting of pavement bays to a standard format (e.g. in Italy it's blue boxes). They are mandated to apply the criteria in (2) for any application and cannot vary them, and cannot decline the work for any reason other than failure to meet those criteria. Funding is provided for this from national taxation.

Then everyone has to pay for car owners convenience.
Pavement parking will require signage so you may as well set up a CPZ whilst you are at it, and the permit charges can pay for the work. You can also give out permits to current residents but only have one per household after the next ownership change.
What I would really like to stop is those who park on their front garden but then buy a car that doesn’t fit without hanging over the pavement. Count that as illegal pavement parking unless you have a permit - issued for current car, no replacement, and expires in two years.

 

[ABB125]

In the village where I live, no-one uses the pavement - they all walk on the road, and have done for the 18 years I've lived there (and 5 or so years before when my parents moved in). If cars parked on the road rather than the pavement, no cars would be able to get past, and especially not the bin lorry, without driving on the village green and causing a muddy mess (which does still happen occasionally). Admittedly, this is a dead-end residential lane where the only traffic is to/from the houses (plus deliveries etc).

 

[edwin_m]

As well as other cars, vans, bin lorries etc we have to consider the need for fire engines to be able to get through. They are among the largest vehicles likely to be seen on a residential street and if they are blocked lives may be at stake.

Perhaps as a general principle we should make it illegal to reduce the clear area at the back of the pavement below 1.5m, or some similar dimension that allows for two-abreast buggies and for others to pass wheelchairs? Exceptions where parking is either less or more restrictive would be advised by signs or marking of permitted parking area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As well as other cars, vans, bin lorries etc we have to consider the need for fire engines to be able to get through. They are among the largest vehicles likely to be seen on a residential street and if they are blocked lives may be at stake.

Perhaps as a general principle we should make it illegal to reduce the clear area at the back of the pavement below 1.5m, or some similar dimension that allows for two-abreast buggies and for others to pass wheelchairs? Exceptions where parking is either less or more restrictive would be advised by signs or marking of permitted parking area.

The advantage of bay-marking is that you can also ensure there's room for fire engines etc.

 

[AM9]

No, that's a reason why people who punch people should be prosecuted for assault/ABH/GBH.

If you want to use that as a justification for prosecuting perpetrators who assualt, then fair enough. But according to the report, the van driver had already been guilty of a disability hate crime subject to the Criminal Justice Act 2003, as well as Obstruction of the Public Highway, (of which the pavement is legally defined as 'that part of the highway set aside for pedestrians') and anyone so doing may be prosecuted under Section 137 Highways Act 1980, Section 42 Road Traffic Act 1988 or Section 22 Road Traffic Act 1988 as appropriate to the nature of the offence, (note that a conviction under the latter reference also attracts three penalty points on the driver's licence).

 

[AM9]

As well as other cars, vans, bin lorries etc we have to consider the need for fire engines to be able to get through. They are among the largest vehicles likely to be seen on a residential street and if they are blocked lives may be at stake.

Perhaps as a general principle we should make it illegal to reduce the clear area at the back of the pavement below 1.5m, or some similar dimension that allows for two-abreast buggies and for others to pass wheelchairs? Exceptions where parking is either less or more restrictive would be advised by signs or marking of permitted parking area.

Except when the road is narrower than the parked vehicle and the clearance needed for a full sized emergency vehicle (probably a fire engine), any driver arriving to find a car already parked is responsible for their vehicle causing an actual obstruction. However unfair it might seem, the only alternative is to prevent parking except in marked places. Those marked places must be LA approved as they would be taking responsibility of the maintenance of the pavement.

 

[DarloRich]

However unfair it might seem, the only alternative is to prevent parking except in marked places. Those marked places must be LA approved as they would be taking responsibility of the maintenance of the pavement.

No problem. Using my street as an example: Where are the cars going to go? You can only park on one side of the road but there are houses on both. Many families have more than one car. Some houses are HIMO. They might have many cars. There are not spaces for everyone. It just about works with a bit of pavement parking. It isnt ideal but it is the only option.

I know you are going to say cars should go away but they wont. Please suggest a practical solution.

 

[AM9]

There’s places where it’s the “done thing” and if that’s what the local residents choose to do then it may well be for the best both for their convenience and for traffic flow. If you have a rural terrace of houses on a busy road then it’s a sensible thing to do.

So it's the League of Gentlemen approach, 'local roads for local people'. That is rubbish. The highway (unless a marked 'private road') is a national public asset, which means that anybody obeying the law can pass along it; be it in a car, on a cycle, on foot or significantly, in a wheelchair/disability scooter, whether they live next door or 200 miles away. That might be inconvenient for some selfish residents, but that's their problem.

However I agree that something should be done about the stereotypical fat Patsi who can’t be bothered to find somewhere proper to park.

The way to define a 'proper' place to park is to define where it is legal to park or not. That only includes the pavement part of the highway if theLA has defined it so.

Unfortunately a blanket approach is not suitable here as there are cases where pavement parking may well be the most sensible solution in a given location whilst at other times be completely inappropriate.

Unless it is marked as permitted, it isn't appropriate, even in the mind of the selfish motorist.

 

[AM9]

No problem. Using my street as an example: Where are the cars going to go? You can only park on one side of the road but there are houses on both. Many families have more than one car. Some houses are HIMO. They might have many cars. There are not spaces for everyone. It just about works with a bit of pavement parking. It isnt ideal but it is the only option.

I know you are going to say cars should go away but they wont. Please suggest a practical solution.

I'm not saying that cars should 'go away' but it is encumbent on everybody to cut their coat according to their cloth which in this case means the space available where they live. If the pavement is wide enough to presrve sufficient space for all pedestrians, then the LA can mark spaces that use part of the pavement and maintain the surface when it is subjected to additional weright.
The only exception would be registered blue badge vehicle used by or specifically for the registered disabled person.