Parking on Pavements (DfT consultation Sept 2020)

[Mojo]

I don't know what the answer is particularly but I do worry we're going to throw the baby out with the bathwater if we have a knee jerk reaction (i.e. I'm not sure anyone is served particularly well if we can no longer collect bins for instance!). Perhaps one solution to balance both users needs would be to mark on pavements (where the roads aren't wide enough to allow for everyone to park on the road without access restrictions) the limit of where a car can park.

This is how it presently works in London, any roads on which pavement parking is permitted are signed and marked appropriately.

In my borough, people can submit a petition to the council to request that officers review the situation. My council will only consider allowing pavement parking if there is at least 1.5 metres space remaining after pavement parking is taken into account. I'm not sure if that is a policy across the board.

 

[AM9]

So what do you propose? The displaced cars aren’t going to simply vanish into thin air. Reality is in most places this isn’t a major issue, as people are considerate in leaving space for others to walk past. Perhaps this isn’t the case in St Albans?!

There are selfish motorists almost everywhere, maybe not in your area but you are only judging by your own standards. St Albans has a fair few pavement parkers who completely block the footpath. I would imagine that their behaviour observed by far more than just me will be brought to the attention of the LA and/or the local Constabulary if the Government actuallly legislates for this.

It’s evident we can include people who get to work by car on your list of dislikes, alongside rail commuters of course (especially those who use a season ticket). For most people walking cycling or taking a bus isn’t a viable option for getting to work, so you seem to be advocating the bulk of the population isolate themselves in their home.

Apart from the off-topic petty attempt to second guess my dislikes, (and you are so wrong anyway), - we are in times of change. I do however have extensive experience of driving and still do, parking sensibly - even on pavements, leaving adequate space for those less fortuante than myself to get by, - maybe that's where we differ. If I can't do that I find somewhere that is safe and considerate, but I don't have the illusion that the road or pavement outside my house is exclusively for my convenience.

 

[mmh]

I agree. If (numbers made up to illustrate the point) 20 houses can share 5 Zipcars (with permanent spaces) for the weekly shop rather than have a car each, that's a 75% reduction in street parking requirement straight away). When you need a car for a longer period, go fetch it from the Park and Ride.

What happens when more than 5 people want to go out at the same time? How do I get to the Park and Ride?

 

[AM9]

This is how it presently works in London, any roads on which pavement parking is permitted are signed and marked appropriately.

In my borough, people can submit a petition to the council to request that officers review the situation. My council will only consider allowing pavement parking if there is at least 1.5 metres space remaining after pavement parking is taken into account. I'm not sure if that is a policy across the board.

That would seem to be a fair minimum clear width. The footpath outside here is I think 6ft/1.8m but unfortunately some park with the centreline of their car over the kerb line. That sort of self-entitlement seems to have brought the subject into the minds of those at the subcommittee talking about fixing the problem.

 

[AM9]

What happens when more than 5 people want to go out at the same time? How do I get to the Park and Ride?

The same as if 6 or 7 or 8 all want to go out at the same time. The 'I want it all and I want it now' types will just have to suck it up.

 

[GB]

The same as if 6 or 7 or 8 all want to go out at the same time. The 'I want it all and I want it now' types will just have to suck it up.

You going to explain that to my boss?

 

[mmh]

I see Zipcar is quite expensive. A fiver an hour on top of a monthly subscription fee. What's the incentive for a regular driver to do this rather than have their own car and the comfort and convenience it gives over a rented car?

 

[mmh]

The same as if 6 or 7 or 8 all want to go out at the same time. The 'I want it all and I want it now' types will just have to suck it up.

But all the children start and finish school at the same time, and there's twenty of them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But all the children start and finish school at the same time, and there's twenty of them.

Nobody should be using a car for the school run unless the child is disabled. We need to move school transport to walking, cycling and where necessary bus services.

 

[scotrail158713]

The 'I want it all and I want it now' types will just have to suck it up. I've not thought of a reasonable response to your valid point.

Fixed that for you

 

[Mojo]

It's also worth pointing out that many of these car clubs aren't financially viable. A handful have shut down in London in the past few years, which I would have thought is probably the "friendliest" place in the country to have a car club. DriveNow, which was part owned by BMW was really useful in that a number of boroughs allowed the cars to be parked free of charge in Pay & Display and residents zone, and Bluecity, both shut down last month.

 

[DarloRich]

I notice no practical solutions thus far ( beyond car clubs that often need support ). If parking on pavements is to be banned where should the cars go?

where the "I need a car in front of my house" mentality needs to change.

I don't think it is i need a car in front of my house. It is WE need 2 cars to get to work. We need to park them somewhere.

Central residential streets in Cambridge for example. All walking distance to the city centre, offices/university buildings, the railway station, multiple bus routes and easy cycling to much of the city. I find it hard to believe that many residents "need" a car on hand nearby 24/7.

Absolutely fine. That is exactly why I don't have a car because the train works for me. IF i worked in Buckingham it wouldn't.

Exactly the same holds for your Cambridge example. If you worked in, say, Norwich and your wife in Lincoln you are going to drive and own 2 cars. They have to be stored somewhere.

Car owners should stop asking everyone else to solve the problem of where they are to legally and safely store their vehicles when they aren't using them. They should have thought of that before they chose to buy them.

this is a very silly post.

 

[mmh]

Nobody should be using a car for the school run unless the child is disabled. We need to move school transport to walking, cycling and where necessary bus services.

Our and the next door neighbours' child go to (different) schools 3 miles away. They're 4 and 7. Even for the elder I think asking them to walk or cycle 6 miles a day is a pretty big ask!

 

[mmh]

Central residential streets in Cambridge for example. All walking distance to the city centre, offices/university buildings, the railway station, multiple bus routes and easy cycling to much of the city. I find it hard to believe that many residents "need" a car on hand nearby 24/7.

Why are only people who work locally allowed to live in Cambridge? What happens when the resident loses their job in the city and gets a new one elsewhere?

 

[mmh]

I notice no practical solutions thus far ( beyond car clubs that often need support ). If parking on pavements is to be banned where should the cars go?

Nobody's explained how a car club car removes the need to park on a pavement. Do they hover?

 

[Snow1964]

I agree. If (numbers made up to illustrate the point) 20 houses can share 5 Zipcars (with permanent spaces) for the weekly shop rather than have a car each, that's a 75% reduction in street parking requirement straight away). When you need a car for a longer period, go fetch it from the Park and Ride.

It is not as daft as it seems, on outskirts of Paris (where many have a holiday home) and Venice (for obvious reasons) there are massive multi-story car parks for residents, as it is realised will sometimes need to drive to rural areas.

In UK there are some with mentality of have to park outside my house (house that I chose without a parking space), and I own the road outside, so can park as badly as I like.

 

[scotrail158713]

Nobody should be using a car for the school run unless the child is disabled. We need to move school transport to walking, cycling and where necessary bus services.

It's not always that simple. I know my Mum or Dad sometimes drove me and my brothers and sister to school (at primary age) before going straight to work. That was a much more practical solution for us as it saved my parents walking the 15 minutes from our house to the school, and then back home again, to then drive straight past the school again on their way to work.

 

[AndrewE]

It's not always that simple. I know my Mum or Dad sometimes drove me and my brothers and sister to school (at primary age) before going straight to work. That was a much more practical solution for us as it saved my parents walking the 15 minutes from our house to the school, and then back home again, to then drive straight past the school again on their way to work.

My mum (in rotation with the other mums nearby) walked me and my friends to infant school because we had to cross the A41, then fetched us at lunchtime I think (can't remember) and again walked at the end of school. Work had to be chosen to fit in with childcare responsibilities. After age 7 I think my friends and I found our own way to junior school and back, and from 11 we all went alone (along with other kids going to the same school of course) 3/4 hr on the bus to secondary school.
A healthier lifestyle that didn't create obese kids with diabetes and unable to judge risk. Perhaps I was lucky to grow up when I did, but in the 50s and 60's dad cycled 2 1/2 miles to the station, people didn't assume they had to have a car, and we only bought our first second-hand one when I was about 10 or 12.

 

[ainsworth74]

The Fiesta is a really good example of a car that's ballooned in recent decades. My 2001 Fiesta felt tiny compared to current models. (Yet according to some they're still a "supermini" car!)
Here's how its size (length x width) has grown over the years:
Mk I (1976): 3.57m x 1.57m
Mk II (1983): 3.57m x 1.57m
Mk III (1989): 3.74m x 1.60m
Mk IV (1995): 3.82m x 1.63m
Mk V (2002): 3.92m x 1.69m
Mk VI (2009): 3.97m x 1.72m
Mk VII (2017): 4.04m x 1.73m
(all numbers lifted from Wikipedia)

In old money, that's 8 1/2" longer and 4" wider than the model two decades ago, or 18" longer and 6" wider than they were in the mid 1980s. No wonder they don't fit in some garages!

Yes I've not measured it but I rather suspect that Mark I through III Fiesta's would have fit in our garage with enough room for someone to exit without crawling through the boot (tight squeeze but doable). Which makes sense as this house was built in the 60s presumably with cars of the size you would find in the 60s in mind!

This is how it presently works in London, any roads on which pavement parking is permitted are signed and marked appropriately.

In my borough, people can submit a petition to the council to request that officers review the situation. My council will only consider allowing pavement parking if there is at least 1.5 metres space remaining after pavement parking is taken into account. I'm not sure if that is a policy across the board.

Yes it was London as the example that I was thinking of and I was also thinking that 1.5m was probably a good figure for the pavement to have remaining for pedestrians. I can't think that there would be many situations where that would leave enough room?

That would seem to be a fair minimum clear width. The footpath outside here is I think 6ft/1.8m but unfortunately some park with the centreline of their car over the kerb line. That sort of self-entitlement seems to have brought the subject into the minds of those at the subcommittee talking about fixing the problem.

Yes I suspect the pavement where I am is a similar size and it would only need around 0.3m of parking (probably a bit less actually) on each side for there to be enough room. That is, after all, what considerate parkers do now. Usually around 30cm onto the pavement which leaves plenty of room for wheelchairs, prams and people with reduced vision.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Our and the next door neighbours' child go to (different) schools 3 miles away. They're 4 and 7. Even for the elder I think asking them to walk or cycle 6 miles a day is a pretty big ask!

That's an issue with choice of schools. If people attended only their local one, it would be no great issue, and school buses could run for those in rural villages not near any school.

 

[mmh]

That's an issue with choice of schools. If people attended only their local one, it would be no great issue, and school buses could run for those in rural villages not near any school.

Both of the schools are the nearest ones of their type. School buses cannot cover everywhere and typically only serve villages themselves. But even if there were a school bus (there isn't), the 4 year old wouldn't be using it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But even if there were a school bus (there isn't), the 4 year old wouldn't be using it.

Why not?

 

[mmh]

Why not?

He's not old enough to be taking himself to school, or anywhere, on his own.

 

[Mojo]

It is not as daft as it seems, on outskirts of Paris (where many have a holiday home) and Venice (for obvious reasons) there are massive multi-story car parks for residents, as it is realised will sometimes need to drive to rural areas.

In UK there are some with mentality of have to park outside my house (house that I chose without a parking space), and I own the road outside, so can park as badly as I like.

Whenever I go to Center Parcs I always think how nice it would be if all urban areas were built like that.

For anyone who doesn't know, at their sites, you are allowed to drive to your accommodation at moving in/out times, or if you are in Wheelchair accommodation, and then you park your car in a large car park elsewhere on the site. All journeys inside the site are done by bike, walking, or by a low-speed shuttle service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

He's not old enough to be taking himself to school, or anywhere, on his own.

I'm not talking about your typical British "here's a knackered old decker, use it as you will" school bus. I'm talking about a proper supervised US style one that picks him up from your door. If he's old enough to be in a classroom under the supervision of a teacher, he's old enough to be on a bus with the same supervision.

 

[AndrewE]

He's not old enough to be taking himself to school, or anywhere, on his own.

That's easily remedied. In this case the bus needs to do a round trip to return the parents to their pick-up points. It probably goes back anyway.
People are going to have to recognise that their comfy "I couldn't possibly use public transport" attitude is going to have to change, and public transport provision needs to lead that.
In a way it is a tragedy that so much influence is exerted by the mid-life generation (and the complacent oldies.) My sympathies lie with Greta Thunberg and her cohort who can see what they will (won't) inherit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whenever I go to Center Parcs I always think how nice it would be if all urban areas were built like that.

For anyone who doesn't know, at their sites, you are allowed to drive to your accommodation at moving in/out times, or if you are in Wheelchair accommodation, and then you park your car in a large car park elsewhere on the site. All journeys inside the site are done by bike, walking, or by a low-speed shuttle service.

There are places where that was tried, and they are nearly without exception crime hotspots because police cars can't get in either. The layout was experimented with in places like Skelmersdale.

You get 1970s estates like mine where the cars are hidden round the back, but that's just the same as putting the back alley at the front, effectively.

 

[Meerkat]

If people have chosen to live somewhere where they can only park anti socially then I don’t think there is a duty for society to pay for that choice. Move out and let someone more willing to use public transport to live there.
In Gibraltar they built little multi stories for residents in dense areas to park. Do that and charge for permits.

 

[Mojo]

There are places where that was tried, and they are nearly without exception crime hotspots because police cars can't get in either. The layout was experimented with in places like Skelmersdale.

The 1970s built estates are a very different layout and design to this. The main problem with places like that is the number of dead ends and cut throughs blocked off by bollards. Center Parcs meanwhile are usually based upon a number of circular, through roads.

 

[mmh]

That's easily remedied. In this case the bus needs to do a round trip to return the parents to their pick-up points. It probably goes back anyway.
People are going to have to recognise that their comfy "I couldn't possibly use public transport" attitude is going to have to change, and public transport provision needs to lead that.
In a way it is a tragedy that so much influence is exerted by the mid-life generation (and the complacent oldies.) My sympathies lie with Greta Thunberg and her cohort who can see what they will (won't) inherit.

I'm not a complacent oldie, just someone who realises that public transport will not replace the car for large parts of Britain. There are 3 commutes in our family. Deganwy to Llandudno, Llandudno to Manchester and Llandudno to Llanberis. The first two are convenient by public transport, despite being the shortest and longest. Realistically, the latter is impossible by public transport and that's not going to change, Greta Thunberg scowling or not.

In 30 years of being on a road partly with no pavements, partly with pavements parked on I've never heard someone complain about how the cars are parked. If they weren't like that, where would they go?