Parking on Pavements (DfT consultation Sept 2020)

[Mcr Warrior]

Seems like cars shouldn't be on the pavement at all then

Maybe, maybe not, it possibly depends, but in certain localities, cars that are parked inappropriately are quite likely to be covered in "snail trails" by the following morning.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Snail trails?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Snail trails?

Keying marks!

 

[bramling]

Seems like cars shouldn't be on the pavement at all then

Maybe not. Meanwhile has anyone any solution to where the cars go to? I mean, solutions to a problem rather than ranting about a problem and failing to offer a solution.

Fact is, a majority of people choose to own cars, and it seems society is prepared to accept that in some instances the least problematic place for them is on a pavement.

A fact of life, just like it rains some times when I’m on holiday.

 

[Dave91131]

A few observations and bits of input from someone who drives for a living:

I always avoid parking on pavements where possible, out of respect for pedestrians and wheelchair users etc. Even if 2 wheels on the pavement will allow traffic both ways to pass simultaneously all 4 wheels stay on the road and they can wait / give way as appropriate.

If 4 wheels on the road means a total road blockage but 2 wheels on the pavement will allow 1 vehicle at a time to pass then 2 wheels will go on the pavement whilst leaving the maximum possible width for pavement users and making it a tight squeeze for road traffic.

Lots of new build estates are a nightmare with totally inadequate parking for the number of vehicles. Residents block pavements completely, badly parallel park at angles leaving bumpers sticking out, park right at corners and junctions meaning some shunting back and forth in a large vehicle is needed to get round the corner or turn at the junction.

It's a similar situation on straight streets with, say, Victorian terraced properties. Indeed in Oxford (and I dare day other cities too) some such streets have parking bays marked partially on the pavement both sides of the road to leave room for single file traffic down the middle.

As others have eluded to, unless the number of vehicles on our roads reduces significantly (which I don't see happening) then pavement parking is here to stay. I don't think the views of those against pavement parking would be anywhere near as strong if drivers, when it is necessary to pavement park, were more considerate in how they do so.

 

[miami]

Maybe not. Meanwhile has anyone any solution to where the cars go to?

Car parks and driveways. Car owners pay for some land and park their car on the land. Alternatively if there's room on the road the council can license use of the road to store private property for a nominal fee.

If I want to put a skip on the road outside my home:

You can’t put a skip on the pavement.
You don’t need a skip licence if you’re putting the skip entirely on private land.
You may need to put safety lights and markings on or around the skip.

The cost of a skip on the road:

There is a standard fee of £80 per skip. If we refuse you a licence, we’ll refund half the fee (£40). You will need to pay online when you apply.
If you put a skip on the highway without a licence, there’s a charge of £310 plus the application fee



Why is a car different?

 

[py_megapixel]

Alternatively if there's room on the road the council can license use of the road to store private property for a nominal fee.

What you're describing there is a parking permit scheme, and I think it's fundementally a good idea - the problem is it usually seems to be targeted at preventing visitors taking roadspace away from residents rather than preventing residents taking pavement-space away from pedestrians.

 

[miami]

So the solution seems to be marked bays -- on the road, and on the pavement where there's enough space (detailed above - 1.5-2m depending on the situation), with a fair number allocated for short term parking (say 1 hour, for deliveries etc)

The problem with pavement, and indeed street parking, will only increase as petrol gives way to electric.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So the solution seems to be marked bays -- on the road, and on the pavement where there's enough space (detailed above - 1.5-2m depending on the situation), with a fair number allocated for short term parking (say 1 hour, for deliveries etc)

The problem with pavement, and indeed street parking, will only increase as petrol gives way to electric.

I've posted upthread on how I think it should work, but to recap:

1. Set a date on which all parking on the footway is prohibited, and enforced by whatever method enforces general parking offences in that area (e.g. double yellows). The date should be at least 2 years hence.
   
   
2. Define the minimum width for a pavement. This clearly won't be 2m because even new-build estates don't build that wide (MK Redway spec is 2m, and that is quite wide and usually only provided on one side of the road), but I'd suggest the largest wheelchair on the market that is a wheelchair rather than a disabled carriage plus about a foot. All new pavements would have to be built to this minimum, so choose carefully. I suspect it's likely to need to be somewhere between 1 and 1.5m.
   
   
3. For any pavement wider than the width in (2), anyone (whether they live there or not) can apply to the local authority to have a long bay marked (not individual ones, so as not to reduce capacity) down to the width in (2). The Council MUST accept this application based on only two factors - the width in (2) and it not otherwise breaching the Highway Code (e.g. being within 10m of a junction) and may not charge for it, and must paint and sign the bays before the deadline in (1). Passing gaps would have to be left at a specified distance to fit the specified wheelchair size above.
   
   
4. In very narrow streets such as the Lancaster example, or where a pavement is genuinely useless (there's one by me that is, it goes nowhere and no pedestrian would ever use it other than to access their car parked on it), applications could be made for a review involving local residents and business owners for the best course of action to end the pavement parking, be that bays on the road on one side only, herringbone bays, restricted-issue Permits (one per household with other cars having to park elsewhere), cutting back or whatever. Consideration may also need to be given to covering verges with a porous surface in some cases but this should be case-by-case and involve local consultation.
   
   
5. Long-term look to replace painted bays with physical pavement reduction as it's safer, but that is too slow and expensive to do as part of the big bang.

 

[bramling]

Car parks and driveways. Car owners pay for some land and park their car on the land. Alternatively if there's room on the road the council can license use of the road to store private property for a nominal fee.

If I want to put a skip on the road outside my home:

You can’t put a skip on the pavement.
You don’t need a skip licence if you’re putting the skip entirely on private land.
You may need to put safety lights and markings on or around the skip.

The cost of a skip on the road:

There is a standard fee of £80 per skip. If we refuse you a licence, we’ll refund half the fee (£40). You will need to pay online when you apply.
If you put a skip on the highway without a licence, there’s a charge of £310 plus the application fee



Why is a car different?

So where does this alternative land come from? Or, to put it another way, which houses are going to be demolished to provide the space? The whole reason why some pavement happens in the first place is because space is in short supply.

I’m not sure comparisons to skips are helpful, as their purpose is completely different.

The reality is that a considerable majority of people wish to own and run cars, and road space is used accordingly. Playing Devil’s advocate, why do pedestrians have any more “right” to pavement space than a car owner? The only certainties in life are, after all, death and taxes.

I’m not making a massive thing about pavement parking as it isn’t something I do myself except in exceptional circumstances (in other words, when there is no other realistic alternative at the location in question), however equally I can fully understand why it happens in places, and to be honest I find some of the angst directed towards the practice disproportionate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reality is that a considerable majority of people wish to own and run cars, and road space is used accordingly. Playing Devil’s advocate, why do pedestrians have any more “right” to pavement space than a car owner?

I don't think the issue is one relating to able-bodied pedestrians having to walk in the road to go round a car, as this is not particularly difficult. It's about blind people, people in wheelchairs, people with prams, people who find stepping up and down non-dropped kerbs etc.

It's a bit like shared spaces - they work for able bodied people but not for those with disabilities.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

A win-win situation would be instructing drivers to park on nearby arterial roads where there is often plenty of space. They should have to walk for several minutes to reach their vehicles = much-needed excersize built into daily routine

 

[Bletchleyite]

A win-win situation would be instructing drivers to park on nearby arterial roads where there is often plenty of space. They should have to walk for several minutes to reach their vehicles = much-needed excersize built into daily routine

I take it you don't drive?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

A win-win situation would be instructing drivers to park on nearby arterial roads where there is often plenty of space. They should have to walk for several minutes to reach their vehicles = much-needed exercise excersize built into daily routine

That'll be practical in rural / outer suburban areas where the nearest arterial road might be several miles away!

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I take it you don't drive?

You take wrong. Used to drive a lot, retired now, chose to do without a vehicle for many reasons

 

[Bikeman78]

Lots of new build estates are a nightmare with totally inadequate parking for the number of vehicles. Residents block pavements completely, badly parallel park at angles leaving bumpers sticking out, park right at corners and junctions meaning some shunting back and forth in a large vehicle is needed to get round the corner or turn at the junction.

This is the worst aspect. It's one thing having insufficient parking space on a 100 year old street with terraced housing. No excuse for that on any estate built within the past 20 years.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

That'll be practical in rural / outer suburban areas where the nearest arterial road might be several miles away!

Agree, there are plenty of places where vehicles could be parked on through roads, thus narrowing them and slowing traffic. Motor races late at night are a significant problem, if parked vehicles narrowed the roads speeds would fall, fewer people would die

 

[Roast Veg]

I'd like to provide the two following roads for consideration:
(A)
and
(B)

These roads in the South West corner of the town of Ossett, West Yorkshire are the access roads to approximately 50 or so houses. I am eager to see whereabouts the "best" off-pavement place to park might be for these people. I personally am glad that I don't have to deal with the area myself!

 

[py_megapixel]

In my opinion, councils need to start charging more for on street parking than for parking in an out-of-the-way car park, not the other way round as is the case currently

 

[miami]

So where does this alternative land come from? Or, to put it another way, which houses are going to be demolished to provide the space? The whole reason why some pavement happens in the first place is because space is in short supply.

it is, I'd love a larger garden. Or indeed a large drive to keep half a dozen cars on. I can't justify the cost.

I'm not bothered which house is purchased and demolished to park a few cars, as long as the car owners pay for the land. A typical house on Lockwood Street, Baddeley Green, Stoke-on-Trent, ST2 7HN costs £95k and has enough space to park half a dozen cars, so £16k per parking space, or £45 per month

I’m not sure comparisons to skips are helpful, as their purpose is completely different.

Well skips are a temporary imposition, but they use the same space (well I suspect a skip probably uses less)

when there is no other realistic alternative at the location in question

How about parking legally, even if you can't park directly outside?

I'd like to provide the two following roads for consideration:
(A)

I see no reason the cars can't park fully on that road, marked bay or not.

(B)

Clearly not suitable to park on that road.


This black car deserves to be crushed. That black car is not pulling out of the driveway, it's entirely parked on the verge despite the owner having two perfectly good parking spaces, and indeed potential for a third.

 

[Bikeman78]

I'd like to provide the two following roads for consideration:
(A)
and
(B)

These roads in the South West corner of the town of Ossett, West Yorkshire are the access roads to approximately 50 or so houses. I am eager to see whereabouts the "best" off-pavement place to park might be for these people. I personally am glad that I don't have to deal with the area myself!

In the first example, I'm surprised at how few cars there are. If they parked completely on the road, there would still be space to get past. In the second example, the only option is off road parking.

 

[bramling]

A win-win situation would be instructing drivers to park on nearby arterial roads where there is often plenty of space. They should have to walk for several minutes to reach their vehicles = much-needed excersize built into daily routine

And when they need to carry stuff?

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

And when they need to carry stuff?

Use a wheeled trolley, I did

 

[AM9]

And when they need to carry stuff?

That's simple, put a collapsible sack barrow in the car. One of these will carry more than most adults can and costs less than a tank of fuel on even the smallest cars:https://media.screwfix.com/is/image//ae235?src=ae235/1209P_P&$prodImageMedium$

 

[bramling]

Use a wheeled trolley, I did

Can’t see that catching on somehow.

 

[biko]

Limited parking is a big problem in many mainly older neighbourhoods throughout Europe, but also for new developments in built-up areas. Scholars and consultants are looking at the concept of mobility hubs as solution: central locations in a neighbourhood where one can park a car, but also take public transport or take a shared car or bicycle. By providing many options it is hoped car ownership will reduce making it possible to have more space for active modes of transport. For the ones that keep a car, the car is parked a few streets down the main road. I believe this might also be good for these kind of places: eliminate the need to park a car there. However, many car users won’t probably like it...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Limited parking is a big problem in many mainly older neighbourhoods throughout Europe, but also for new developments in built-up areas. Scholars and consultants are looking at the concept of mobility hubs as solution: central locations in a neighbourhood where one can park a car, but also take public transport or take a shared car or bicycle. By providing many options it is hoped car ownership will reduce making it possible to have more space for active modes of transport. For the ones that keep a car, the car is parked a few streets down the main road. I believe this might also be good for these kind of places: eliminate the need to park a car there. However, many car users won’t probably like it...

I suppose if you can do a P&R for a destination you can do it for an origin, but with many places in the UK being rather hillier than the Netherlands bicycles aren't likely to often be the answer. But really the carrot needs to come before the stick.

To be honest, it might well be worth, in places like the bit of Lancaster I referred to above, purchasing a few of the houses, knocking them down and creating residents' car parks, possibly on two levels (ground and an underground level). Compulsory purchase would be difficult because it would cause a massive fuss, but these are typically areas of very low house prices (outside London at least) for the place concerned, so if you offered people well over the odds it still wouldn't cost much and they may well sell voluntarily. You could also mark bays up one side of the road and have everything one way, and that should provide enough space for at least one car per household.

 

[AM9]

Can’t see that catching on somehow.

Clearly not, drivers would rather obstruct footpaths and make life even more difficult for people who already have problems getting around. It's a pity that there is such a significant proportion of self-serving drivers in this country that creates so many problems in society.

 

[sheff1]

A win-win situation would be instructing drivers to park on nearby arterial roads where there is often plenty of space.

Have you ever been to Sheffield ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you ever been to Sheffield ?

Or Lancaster?