Pathetic Valleys Lines

[Markdvdman]

The Valleys lines bottleneck in Cardiff is now becoming a complete joke!

They want to improve siganlling to allow 16tph from 12tph in Queen Street after improvements.

I say forget more trains, and get them on time!

The trains from Cadoxton to Merthyr in 2 out of the last 3 nights on the 5:37pm have got to Cadoxton 5 mins late at least due to leaving Barry Island 5-7 mins late.

It gets far worse as it goes along, and only gets a saving grace as the landed time in Merthyr is ridiculously overstated!

Cardiff is now an absolute joke on the Valleys Lines service I am sick of it and it is no fun in the winter!

Do you honestly think they should just improve signalling and bottlenecks and keep it at 12tph or do it and go for 16tph?

Maybe the poor trains are not helping I do not know but it is flawed and the statistics are a total lie on reliability and on time. Only due to the flawed landed times are they getting away with it.

Pentrebach to Merthyr is about 2 to 3 mins yet it is far longer in the timetable! No doubt it is the case on all the other routes!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Is it just recently? leaf fall season will have effects on puncuality over most of the network especially lines like the valleys. The lines around me have been struggling (harrogate and calder valley similar to valleys) with similar traction, its probably more that than anything else.

 

[anthony263]

The pacers do struggle on the valley lines network during the leaf fall season. Then again I have been on a class 150 on the Ebbw vale branch which has really struggled up to Ebbw Vale parkway.

 

[Ivo]

The Valley Lines need an improvement of some kind, and I would suggest that 16tph is a good start. But I'm wondering how it would work; possibly 2tph terminating at each of Pontypridd and Caerphilly and retiming all the others (including the City Line) to give a train every 7-8 minutes towards both Heath and Pontypridd? Whether this would be necessary with electrification is another matter, but it would still be a useful addition. The sooner the better for me.

Pentrebach to Merthyr is about 2 to 3 mins yet it is far longer in the timetable! No doubt it is the case on all the other routes!

This is to allow recovery time. It happens (almost) everywhere. In fact, I don't know if this is still the case but in some cases these formerly appeared only in the passenger timetables and not staff timetables, which were timetabled faster at the end of journeys! (This comes from a 1996 LTS working timetable.)

 

[The Planner]

If you didnt increase the service levels the business case for re-signalling and the infrastructure works probably wouldnt have stacked up. Unfortunately what may seem like blatent common sense in terms of improvements always has to get past the bean counters !!

 

[krus_aragon]

The resignalling isn't just to get 16tph through Queen St/Central, though. There's more to it than that.

The trains from Cadoxton to Merthyr in 2 out of the last 3 nights on the 5:37pm have got to Cadoxton 5 mins late at least due to leaving Barry Island 5-7 mins late.

I'll wager that these were coming through Cadoxton late because they were late leaving Cardiff in the Barry direction. The current track and signalling don't allow a train to stop and reverse at Barry if it's running late: it has to go all the way around that long slow curve to Barry Island and back again, every time. That's why when trains are running late southbound through Central they'll send them non-stop as far as Cadoxton/Barry, in order to try and make up time and get back to the timetable for the return journey. As you said, they're not quite managing it recently.

An extra platform and provision to turn back a train at Barry is part of this big resignalling effort, so it'll be even easier to get a late-running train back on time by the time it's going back north.

At the moment, it's single file for all trains once they reach Queen St until they leave Central, and vice versa. There's nowhere for a slightly late train to pass another to catch up and get its proper slot back. Cay you've got a train that's coming on time from the Cathays direction, and the preceding train coming down from Heath is three or for minutes late. As the signaller, do you hold the Cathays train and hope the Heath makes it in time, or accept the Cathays into the platform on Queen St and force the Heath train to be stuck behind and even more late?

The answer is more platforms. The old platform 1 at Queen St is going to be reinstated, the current Cardiff Bay platform will be used for through services, and a new bay platform built for shuttles to The Bay. At Central, a platform 8 will be built, and platform 4 taken over by Valley services (at times at least). This means the signaller could accept the Cathays train into platform 4 on time and still be able to accept the Heath train into platform 3 as soon as it arrives. The Heath train could then pass the Cathays train at either Queen St or Central, because the extra platforms are effectively passing loops.

Look at this page for a summary of what's being done.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Valley Lines need an improvement of some kind, and I would suggest that 16tph is a good start. But I'm wondering how it would work; possibly 2tph terminating at each of Pontypridd and Caerphilly and retiming all the others (including the City Line) to give a train every 7-8 minutes towards both Heath and Pontypridd? Whether this would be necessary with electrification is another matter, but it would still be a useful addition. The sooner the better for me.

There are a few suggested route diagrams in the recent Wales RUS. Have a look at pages 123-131 in particular.

 

[Markdvdman]

The resignalling isn't just to get 16tph through Queen St/Central, though. There's more to it than that.



I'll wager that these were coming through Cadoxton late because they were late leaving Cardiff in the Barry direction. The current track and signalling don't allow a train to stop and reverse at Barry if it's running late: it has to go all the way around that long slow curve to Barry Island and back again, every time. That's why when trains are running late southbound through Central they'll send them non-stop as far as Cadoxton/Barry, in order to try and make up time and get back to the timetable for the return journey. As you said, they're not quite managing it recently.

An extra platform and provision to turn back a train at Barry is part of this big resignalling effort, so it'll be even easier to get a late-running train back on time by the time it's going back north.

At the moment, it's single file for all trains once they reach Queen St until they leave Central, and vice versa. There's nowhere for a slightly late train to pass another to catch up and get its proper slot back. Cay you've got a train that's coming on time from the Cathays direction, and the preceding train coming down from Heath is three or for minutes late. As the signaller, do you hold the Cathays train and hope the Heath makes it in time, or accept the Cathays into the platform on Queen St and force the Heath train to be stuck behind and even more late?

The answer is more platforms. The old platform 1 at Queen St is going to be reinstated, the current Cardiff Bay platform will be used for through services, and a new bay platform built for shuttles to The Bay. At Central, a platform 8 will be built, and platform 4 taken over by Valley services (at times at least). This means the signaller could accept the Cathays train into platform 4 on time and still be able to accept the Heath train into platform 3 as soon as it arrives. The Heath train could then pass the Cathays train at either Queen St or Central, because the extra platforms are effectively passing loops.

Look at this page for a summary of what's being done.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There are a few suggested route diagrams in the recent Wales RUS. Have a look at pages 123-131 in particular.

Yes that would make a whole lot of sense and improve things dramatically. I am convinced they are late running due to getting to Barry Island late. As you say no turnback functions make it difficult. what I hate the most is if it is too late they sprint through the station and ignore you. It is mainly all to do with Cardiff and sort that bottleneck out and most things will sort themselves out. The death of somebody in Cadoxton getting hit by a train to be fair is nothing to do with arriva. Sadly, those things do happen and I really feel for the driver in each case.

 

[WelshBluebird]

it has to go all the way around that long slow curve to Barry Island and back again, every time.

Out of curiosity, how is it that the curve is so slow?
Before a couple of weeks ago it had been years and years (probably at least 10, if not more) since I had been down to Barry Island by train, and I am guessing because of my age at that time, I never noticed how slow it was. I certainly did notice it this time around though!

And yes, the valley lines do need huge improvements. Personally I really would like to see the possibility of redoubling the line from Porth to Treherbert, as at least in my experience the single track seems to have an influence on some of the delays we get at that bit of a the line.

 

[Markdvdman]

Out of curiosity, how is it that the curve is so slow?
Before a couple of weeks ago it had been years and years (probably at least 10, if not more) since I had been down to Barry Island by train, and I am guessing because of my age at that time, I never noticed how slow it was. I certainly did notice it this time around though!

And yes, the valley lines do need huge improvements. Personally I really would like to see the possibility of redoubling the line from Porth to Treherbert, as at least in my experience the single track seems to have an influence on some of the delays we get at that bit of a the line.

Yes the same problem happens on the Merthyr line.

they spent £22m on a passing loop at Merthyr Vale and sorting the station out, but redoubling, and putting extra platforms at Troedyrhiw, Pentrebach and Quakers Yard could have improved things dramatically. Costs would have doubled or tripled, but is it really worth avoiding in the long run? Potential costs of losing passengers are just not worth it. Also, if the guards came around more often passing Ponty they would get more revenue!

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Yes I'm sure it is 10, 5 is too slow for what I remember.

It would help if the Leyland's were serviced well too, I've been in a coach on a 142 where the engine has just died when trying to tackle the steep Abercynon Bank with the front car having to do the work

 

[Greenback]

Costs would have doubled or tripled, but is it really worth avoiding in the long run? Potential costs of losing passengers are just not worth it.

One of the main problems in this country is short termism!

 

[Markdvdman]

One of the main problems in this country is short termism!

Indeed! If they had not removed them in the first place and the same with Gowerton, the horrendous cost of redoubling would be a pittance compared to a mothballed approach!

 

[Greenback]

Indeed! If they had not removed them in the first place and the same with Gowerton, the horrendous cost of redoubling would be a pittance compared to a mothballed approach!

Spot on! How we could do with the extra platform at Queen St as well, not to mention the west facing bay at Central.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Spot on! How we could do with the extra platform at Queen St as well, not to mention the west facing bay at Central.

As I pointed out in one of Newsletters years ago I can remember standing with my grandfather looking at some piece of ripped out infrastructure as a child and him saying "they'll regret that one day". The piece of infrastructure currently has a multi million price tag attached to restoring far more than was ever saved by ripping it out.

 

[quarella]

In my opinion Valley Lines is a light rail (tram) service being operated by heavy rail using infrastructure that hasn't been greatly improved since the service was run right down in the late 1970s when hourly services to Barry/Penarth were the norm and the Aberdare branch had not yet reopened. In amongst the greatly increased passenger services freight is shoehorned in as well.

The usual method Valley Lines use to get a service back on time is to run non stop over a section of route. Now at around 1737 which he referred to the primary flow would be out of Cardiff so a service would run as booked to Barry Island and then may be run fast Barry Town to Cardiff missing Cadoxton altogether.



I think investment in a proper tram service and with street running along Queen St and St Mary St rejoining at Cardiff Ctl.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The usual method Valley Lines use to get a service back on time is to run non stop over a section of route.

Or, at least in my experience on the rhondda branch, to just terminate the service early (at Porth or Ystrad Rhondda) instead of running late / non stop through to Treherbert. Part of this goes back to what I said about the single track, as I bet a large amount of the reasoning for terminating services early is the knock on effect it will have on other services because of the single track.

I am not entirely convinced a light rail system would work as the area is fairly spread out. On the other hand there are parts of Cardiff that could do with a station (Gabalfa / Maindy, St Fagans, even down by the sports villiage), and perhaps an integrated light rail system is the better way to do it? Indeed there has been some talk in the media about a "south wales metro", although I seriously doubt anyone would be willing to invest the sums of money that would be needed.