Pathfinder Tours Railtour Programme 2022

[47827]

Can't speak for anyone else but I travelled over 2000 miles on GB tours in 2021, and only about half of that was the Charity tour. I'll be on another in a couple of months too

In that grand scheme that's a pinch of the rear of the several hundred that operate every year. It was nice to see that plenty of cash was raised on that trip despite the illness outbreaks on board that took away the pleasure for some.

 

[Iskra]

If DRS are doing what they said and not bothering and GBRF scale down Rivera/chingfinder will lose big time and LSL will be rubbing there hands and smiling, about 15 years back DRS didnt supply pathfinder with locos and they were left with 1015 and EWS stuff so its happened before, no sign of 1015 being ready 9009 will be back at some point but people may put off booking on that and just wait for 9000, interesting times ahead, and who will come out the other side?

This could be why Pathfinder are operating so many Welsh tours- the Cambrian ones are operated with DB locomotives to Shrewsbury and then it is Network Rail 97's from there.

I am confident that they will weather the storm however, DB cover a lot of the UK and their 67's and 90's are quite useful for railtours. Class 60's seem popular too. There are of course other more obscure traction providers too- ROG, Colas, the Class 50 alliance, and the Deltic Preservation society to name a handful (I'm sure there are many more). I'm sure they can adapt their offering to keep things moving.

You are correct to point out that LSL may be able to benefit, however currently they are still relatively new and are still building up a customer base.

 

[47827]

Is this FOC's just (understandably) prioritising currently scarce resources during a period of high isolations on their bread and butter operations? If so it's a bit of a non story.

That is certainly a part of it. It's how permanent a fixture that trend is that people may take an interest in though. It will probably have a big impact on at least the first half of the year and leave LSL with less competition for its IC programme and the remaining charter programme UK wide being an even bigger dining only or orientated affair, and mostly not aimed at the enthusiast. The trouble is, rightly or wrongly, every time there is a new variant or covid related panic by government to the public it enforces nerves within these markets and will put off those who regard charters as a sideline or whom have been catering traditionally for the more bespoke and peculiar side of things that was making a resurgence until recently.

 

[JonathanH]

the Class 50 alliance

Still need DBC or GBRf to drive their locomotives.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Nothing announced to/from the Devon and Cornwall area so far which is unfortunate, Pathfinder usually come down here most years (last year being the exception for obvious reasons)

 

[43 302]

Nothing announced to/from the Devon and Cornwall area so far which is unfortunate, Pathfinder usually come down here most years (last year being the exception for obvious reasons)

I must've imagined doing a Pathfinder tour to Penzance last year then!

 

[Charlie Smythe]

I must've imagined doing a Pathfinder tour to Penzance last year then!

Sounds like I have either missed or forgotten a tour, which one was that?

 

[43 302]

Sounds like I have either missed or forgotten a tour, which one was that?

Mazey Day that was redated to September!

 

[Whistler40145]

On another matter, Peter Watts is retiring this year along with the departure of his daughter Hannah Starkey

 

[31160]

All this delay in announcements makes me think if DRS deciding to stop charter work has pulled the rug from under them, obviously with LSL having there own stock with there own locos and importantly crew they can say what they intend to do for the full year so by time Pathfinder get round to saying what they intend to do people may have already booked on their competitors

 

[JonathanH]

All this delay in announcements makes me think if DRS deciding to stop charter work has pulled the rug from under them, obviously with LSL having there own stock with there own locos and importantly crew they can say what they intend to do for the full year so by time Pathfinder get round to saying what they intend to do people may have already booked on their competitors

Do people actually need to plan that far out? Three months seems about right, rather than knowing the plan for the year.

 

[Whistler40145]

I never plan a whole year with regards to railtours

 

[31160]

Do people actually need to plan that far out? Three months seems about right, rather than knowing the plan for the year.

Well if you know whats advertised and you can get the time off work why not, you can sort out cheap hotels and trains to and from as well

 

[JonathanH]

Well if you know whats advertised and you can get the time off work why not, you can sort out cheap hotels and trains to and from as well

Indeed, but those trains to and from the tours also have a three month booking horizon and, as we have seen with the BLS plan for 2022, current circumstances mean that tours get redated or cancelled when they can't be resourced.

 

[47827]

On another matter, Peter Watts is retiring this year along with the departure of his daughter Hannah Starkey

Was originally happening in mid to late 2020, then came nasty Uncle C from the People's Republic of C in the March. And I believe he's still there as presumably he didn't want to end on a low and was probably talked into staying on to get things planned and running smoothly again when the trains started up again, which seemed to be the case looking at it as an outsider. I imagine there is a replacement plan either in place or being formulated currently, possibly involving someone already close to or involved in the business.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Mazey Day that was redated to September!

Ah yes, the two GBRF Class 50's, I remember it now.

All this delay in announcements makes me think if DRS deciding to stop charter work has pulled the rug from under them, obviously with LSL having there own stock with there own locos and importantly crew they can say what they intend to do for the full year so by time Pathfinder get round to saying what they intend to do people may have already booked on their competitors

Don't forget WCRC, they could possibly soak up some of the work that DB, GBRF and DRS leave behind. I would have thought that LSL and WCRC would be able to handle the work load, might give their locos a good run out as well.

 

[JonathanH]

Don't forget WCRC, they could possibly soak up some of the work that DB, GBRF and DRS leave behind. I would have thought that LSL and WCRC would be able to handle the work load, might give their locos a good run out as well.

Both LSL and WCRC have comprehensive schedules of their own to resource, and in the latter case the need to support Railway Touring Company, Steam Dreams and some smaller players.

Pathfinder's business is based on using Riviera stock (because they are to all intents and purposes one and the same) and hiring in suitable traction. It seems like SLC Operations might provide traincrew but that might limit the available traction. The failure of D1015 has probably affected plans to some extent as well as the cut back in charter work by the freight companies.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Both LSL and WCRC have comprehensive schedules of their own to resource, and in the latter case the need to support Railway Touring Company, Steam Dreams and some smaller players.

Pathfinder's business is based on using Riviera stock (because they are to all intents and purposes one and the same) and hiring in suitable traction. It seems like SLC Operations might provide traincrew but that might limit the available traction. The failure of D1015 has probably affected plans to some extent as well as the cut back in charter work by the freight companies.

Well that is true, it would require them to have space in the schedule and without being them we will never know. I can't think of who else can supply traction, Riviera don't have locos anymore. ROG aren't interested in the charter market so that counts them out of it.

D1015's failure was definiely a blow to not just Pathfinder, but the charter/preservation markets as well. Real shame about what happenend although they're apparently in the process of fitting the spare engine as we speak. What's the thinking behind such a heavy train for a test? A 1000+ tonne plus cement train and not a 10 car rake of mk1's? Sounds like asking for trouble. I would looking forward to the Champion Torbay Express last year but sadly the previous fridays events put pay to that.

 

[47827]

D1015's failure was definiely a blow to not just Pathfinder, but the charter/preservation markets as well. What's the thinking behind such a heavy train for a test? A 1000+ tonne plus cement train and not a 10 car rake of mk1's? Sounds like asking for trouble. I would looking forward to the Champion Torbay Express last year but sadly the previous fridays events put pay to that.

I'm far from an engineer, but the concern I had when I saw what it was being tested on was that it was pushing the thing beyond what it was ever likely to need to do in anger again, but I do understand the logic used in the freight test run. Presume for the owners it looked like a good bet though as the engine had worked heavy loads in the past (under some training and/or hire arrangement without recalling which) and it seemed somewhat more financially viable than persuading one of the stock owners to hire a set then paying for separate paths and crews. As the freight was already running and GB had some traction competency for the chosen service it made sense and I'd not criticise the group as there was probably a big element of bad luck too. Had it gone to plan then a 5 figure sum was potentially saved, which could be used to pay other overheads in the future.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

I'm far from an engineer, but the concern I had when I saw what it was being tested on was that it was pushing the thing beyond what it was ever likely to need to do in anger again, but I do understand the logic used in the freight test run. Presume for the owners it looked like a good bet though as the engine had worked heavy loads in the past (under some training and/or hire arrangement without recalling which) and it seemed somewhat more financially viable than persuading one of the stock owners to hire a set then paying for separate paths and crews. As the freight was already running and GB had some traction competency for the chosen service it made sense and I'd not criticise the group as there was probably a big element of bad luck too. Had it gone to plan then a 5 figure sum was potentially saved, which could be used to pay other overheads in the future.

Very true, but the question is, did they push it to hard too soon? I am also not an engineer, but could the loco have done with a lighter loading to bed the new engine in first like you would with a car etc.

I agree on that front though, a lot of bad luck was involved with this that's for sure.

 

[Iskra]

Well that is true, it would require them to have space in the schedule and without being them we will never know. I can't think of who else can supply traction, Riviera don't have locos anymore. ROG aren't interested in the charter market so that counts them out of it.

D1015's failure was definiely a blow to not just Pathfinder, but the charter/preservation markets as well. Real shame about what happenend although they're apparently in the process of fitting the spare engine as we speak. What's the thinking behind such a heavy train for a test? A 1000+ tonne plus cement train and not a 10 car rake of mk1's? Sounds like asking for trouble. I would looking forward to the Champion Torbay Express last year but sadly the previous fridays events put pay to that.

ROG ran a number of charters last year.

There are of course many smaller loco owning groups and societies that are happy to provide loco’s- Tornado group, Class 50 alliance, Deltic Preservation Society. Recent events are a setback but I don’t see it being terminal.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

ROG ran a number of charters last year.

There are of course many smaller loco owning groups and societies that are happy to provide loco’s- Tornado group, Class 50 alliance, Deltic Preservation Society. Recent events are a setback but I don’t see it being terminal.

ROG have stated that they aren't interested in the charter market.

Sourcing locomotives isn't usually the issue, it's the drivers and the traction knowledge that is the problem.

As for the Class 50 Alliance, they seem to be the backbone of quite a lot at the moment, certainly done a few tours down this way. Nice to have them out and about.

 

[Iskra]

ROG have stated that they aren't interested in the charter market.

Sourcing locomotives isn't usually the issue, it's the drivers and the traction knowledge that is the problem.

As for the Class 50 Alliance, they seem to be the backbone of quite a lot at the moment, certainly done a few tours down this way. Nice to have them out and about.

Have you got a link to a quote from ROG? Just seems weird when they ran multiple charters last year…

 

[43 302]

Have you got a link to a quote from ROG? Just seems weird when they ran multiple charters last year…

Indeed. I was personally booked on another ROG operated tour that was caped in the end. I'm also aware of ROG operated tour due to take place this year utilising a certain Class 37. Why would they have all that MK3 stock if not to operate charters?

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Have you got a link to a quote from ROG? Just seems weird when they ran multiple charters last year…

Never mind, I stand corrected on this one, having read back and looked at other sources etc. its DRS who are considering pulling out, not ROG. I do appologise.

Could be good work for ROG if they want it especially for the hertitage traction, not so much the new 93.

 

[3973EXL]

Retro Railtours - home page used ROG traction/stock last year.

 

[43 302]

Could be good work for ROG if they want it especially for the hertitage traction, not so much the new 93.

I'm sure they will be demand for people to red pen any new class of loco.

 

[31160]

Its surprising they havent said what the annual Mazey day job will be this year im assuming that there will be one, the obvious choices would be 50s again or the now available 40145, if its new power a 69 might be made available if they work properly by then, or coming from left field AFAIK a class 60 hasnt gone south West on a charter before ive seen a 60 in Long Rock once on fuel tanks so they can go that far, the speed is the issue with that though, but you could go to Exeter say with a skip then put that on the back 60 to penzance and back home with the skip if DB would consider it, but i suspect it will be a 50 again anyway

 

[47827]

Its surprising they havent said what the annual Mazey day job will be this year im assuming that there will be one, the obvious choices would be 50s again or the now available 40145, if its new power a 69 might be made available if they work properly by then, or coming from left field AFAIK a class 60 hasnt gone south West on a charter before ive seen a 60 in Long Rock once on fuel tanks so they can go that far, the speed is the issue with that though, but you could go to Exeter say with a skip then put that on the back 60 to penzance and back home with the skip if DB would consider it, but i suspect it will be a 50 again anyway

There will need to be time to plan training or refreshers if the 40 does anything for another TOC this year. With crewing challenges what they are I'd not think the Mazey Day date would be a favourite. I'm more inclined to think its next outing will be an in house one as soon as stock (probably mk1s) can be found so late summer or autumn, but time will tell.

 

[bleeder4]

With regards to Mazey Day, there is a Statesman Rail trip to Penzance on Mazey Day (25th June) that takes exactly the same route from Birmingham and Worcester that Pathfinder's trip usually takes. So that would be 2 charter trains on an identical route on exactly the same day. I'm not sure what capacity is like on that part of the network these days, but potentially there may be an issue there as well.