Pay dispute at London Underground

[footprints]

When are those voting no in these ballots going to learn that the best way to get an outcome of no strikes is not to vote at all? Great work from every 'no' voter in nudging the percentage of returned ballot papers over the 50% threshold.

What a Christmas gift for the Tories from the RMT. The Labour mayor can either have the tube grind to a halt for the best part of a week or enforce minimum service levels. Either way, it's lose-lose for him while the Government just sits back and watches him squirm. Meanwhile, most Londoners enjoy a bonus week working from home.

 

[Mawkie]

When are those voting no in these ballots going to learn that the best way to get an outcome of no strikes is not to vote at all? Great work from every 'no' voter in nudging the percentage of returned ballot papers over the 50% threshold.

Eveyone I spoke to who voted no knew exactly what the implications were, but had a genuine interest in having their vote registered in a democratic process.

What a Christmas gift for the Tories from the RMT. The Labour mayor can either have the tube grind to a halt for the best part of a week or enforce minimum service levels. Either way, it's lose-lose for him while the Government just sits back and watches him squirm. Meanwhile, most Londoners enjoy a bonus week working from home.

You're over thinking it a bit. I'm sure the RMT haven't given much thought to the relationship between the Mayor and central government. (As a slight aside, there is often a sense of "The RMT" being the force behind the action, when of course the RMT is driven by its members from local branch meetings, upwards.)

Not to belittle the impact of the various areas of the business going on strike, but the tube won't grind to a halt for a week - lots of roles within LU can be covered by managers and such will create minor difficulties in running a service. If the strike goes ahead, it will be disastrous on the 8th and 10th Jan when stations staff and train ops participate.

I would guess (from comments in the various WhatsApp groups) that members would be happy with an extra 1.5-2% over the 'full and final' 5% offered by LU.

 

[Snow1964]

Looks like there will be massive disruption from Jan 6 until Jan 12. Sadiq may be forced to issue work notices.

Unless I am misunderstanding (which is fairly likely as MSL is new), the mayor gives directions to TfL, but isn't the employer, and it is employer who issues work notices

 

[kw12]

I would guess (from comments in the various WhatsApp groups) that members would be happy with an extra 1.5-2% over the 'full and final' 5% offered by LU.

... Which would cost LU several £million extra per year

 

[bluegoblin7]

Not to belittle the impact of the various areas of the business going on strike, but the tube won't grind to a halt for a week - lots of roles within LU can be covered by managers and such will create minor difficulties in running a service. If the strike goes ahead, it will be disastrous on the 8th and 10th Jan when stations staff and train ops participate.

I think you overestimate what managers are able to cover what, and where that resource is.

The Service Control dates will be particularly solid, from what I'm hearing from my members as a senior Service Control rep. Granted a couple of lines aren't as solidly RMT as others, but given one of the biggest sticking points in the pay deal is around the freezing of pay bands this is an issue that Service Control as a whole - and many other traditionally 'white collar' grades - is particularly invested in.

 

[Thirteen]

Since it's unlikely we'll see any talks until after Christmas and New Year, it doesn't give much time to call things off.

 

[Mawkie]

...but given one of the biggest sticking points in the pay deal is around the freezing of pay bands this is an issue that Service Control as a whole - and many other traditionally 'white collar' grades - is particularly invested in.

It was the banding issue that cemented my vote - although it doesn't impact me personally.

Since it's unlikely we'll see any talks until after Christmas and New Year, it doesn't give much time to call things off.

For such a behemoth, LU can move surprisingly quickly when it wants to.

 

[winks]

With regards to freezing the payscales what does this look like as someone at the top surely doesn’t get the 5% rise. I believe NR have tried this too - a bit crafty !

 

[Daniel]

With regards to freezing the payscales what does this look like as someone at the top surely doesn’t get the 5% rise. I believe NR have tried this too - a bit crafty !

Correct to my understanding, someone at the top wouldn't get a payrise.

If the band is £20,000 to £40,000 for example:

If you're on £40,000 you will stay on £40,000
If you're on £20,000 you will be on £21,000
A new member of staff entering the grade (after the implementation date) will be on £20,000 and thus on less than all other colleagues in the same role

Also naturally the difference between banded and non-banded grades becomes smaller, further lowering the incentive to enter roles such as those in Service Control, with increasing responsibility for dwindling additional compensation

 

[winks]

the 5% for those at the top will be paid as a non-consolidated payment, I assume.

 

[Goldfish62]

I was told that railway staff working for the new Crossrail and even the North London Line get the same perks with free travel as London Underground railway staff, but in addition a 75% national discount card. Maybe the Underground people just want parity with their Crossrail colleagues, which seems reasonable.

They're not colleagues. London Overground staff work for Arriva Rail London and Elizabeth Line staff work for MTR Elizabeth line. Neither are part of TfL.

LU staff are TfL employees. It is RDG, not TfL, that grants privs. Despite requests over a number of years RDG have flatly refused to allow TfL staff to have privs. It's not through lack of asking by TfL. The unions understand this.

 

[Central]

I’m retired Underground staff have had a Priv card since I joined in 1966,now have a retired staff one.I thought REPTA issued Priv cards.

 

[Dstock7080]

REPTA Railway Employees & Public Transport Association do not issue PRIV cards and the organisation is closing on 31 December.
PRIV cards are only available to Underground staff employed prior to 1 April 1996.

 

[Mawkie]

Despite requests over a number of years RDG have flatly refused to allow TfL staff to have privs. It's not through lack of asking by TfL. The unions understand this.

My understanding is that TfL have flatly refused to discuss Privs as part of the pay deal. Do you have anything to substantiate your claim?

I can't claim to know much about those negotiations, but I saw a FOI from Network Rail that got Privs from RDG for £200 a year per employee, so it seems it's more a commercial decision for TfL than a "reciprocal thing".

 

[rmt4ever]

They're not colleagues. London Overground staff work for Arriva Rail London and Elizabeth Line staff work for MTR Elizabeth line. Neither are part of TfL.

LU staff are TfL employees. It is RDG, not TfL, that grants privs. Despite requests over a number of years RDG have flatly refused to allow TfL staff to have privs. It's not through lack of asking by TfL. The unions understand this.

I believe you are wrong. LU staff are completely London Underground Ltd employees. Not TFL employees

 

[bluegoblin7]

I believe you are wrong. LU staff are completely London Underground Ltd employees. Not TFL employees

LUL is a wholly-owned subsidiary of TfL. Whilst my contract is for the former, I often - and know of plenty of others - who will use 'I work for TfL' interchangeably. Likewise, colleagues at other TfL subsidiaries or concessionaires are exactly that. I think we're splitting hairs.

I can't claim to know much about those negotiations, but I saw a FOI from Network Rail that got Privs from RDG for £200 a year per employee, so it seems it's more a commercial decision for TfL than a "reciprocal thing".

It is RDG, not TfL, that grants privs. Despite requests over a number of years RDG have flatly refused to allow TfL staff to have privs. It's not through lack of asking by TfL. The unions understand this.

A bit of both. TfL are in a better position than NR to negotiate Privs as they can offer 'something' in return, i.e. reciprocal travel for RDG staff. The exact details have never been made public as they are part of negotiations, but it has swayed between which side refuses over the years. Currently, TfL aren't happy with the strings RDG would like to impose, AIUI.

Priv is being dealt with outside of the pay discussions, but it is something on the table at LU Company Council.

 

[Goldfish62]

I believe you are wrong. LU staff are completely London Underground Ltd employees. Not TFL employees

Despite being taken over by TfL in 2004 some LU staff seem to be in denial that they're anything to do with TfL. It used to get quite tiresome.

LU employees are as much part of TfL as London Bus Services Ltd staff are. Any travel concessions negotiated for LU staff have to be applied TfL-wide.

A bit of both. TfL are in a better position than NR to negotiate Privs as they can offer 'something' in return, i.e. reciprocal travel for RDG staff. The exact details have never been made public as they are part of negotiations, but it has swayed between which side refuses over the years. Currently, TfL aren't happy with the strings RDG would like to impose, AIUI.

Priv is being dealt with outside of the pay discussions, but it is something on the table at LU Company Council.

It was always on the table in my time at TfL but despite warm words it never got anywhere, and I very much doubt it will.

 

[SunSeeker]

Despite being taken over by TfL in 2004 some LU staff seem to be in denial that they're anything to do with TfL. It used to get quite tiresome.

LU employees are as much part of TfL as London Bus Services Ltd staff are. Any travel concessions negotiated for LU staff have to be applied TfL-wide.

I wouldn't call it denial, probably because of the fact our contract is with LUL, not TfL. Yes they are both part of the same corporate family, but they are still separate employers.

It may be the case for travel agreements, but each negotiates under different collective bargaining arrangements for pay and conditions, so I would say we are not as close as you think.

 

[Goldfish62]

It may be the case for travel agreements, but each negotiates under different collective bargaining arrangements for pay and conditions, so I would say we are not as close as you think.

Oh but you are. LU shares the same COO as the rest of TfL and different parts of TfL having different collective bargaining arrangements. LU is just as much part of TfL as the other constituent modes.

 

[SunSeeker]

Oh but you are. LU shares the same COO as the rest of TfL and different parts of TfL having different collective bargaining arrangements. LU is just as much part of TfL as the other constituent modes.

Oh but we are not. Nobody is denying LUL is part of TfL. You seem to think it's all one big company, which is wrong. They are separate employers with separate terms and conditions, and separate rules and policies. Your claim of LUL staff being 'in denial' and finding it 'tiresome' says a lot about your lack of knowledge. As you don't appear to work for either of the employers mentioned, probably best to stay out of topics that don't concern you.

 

[Central]

It’s not the LUL pension fund,it’s TfL pension fund,so I would say we’re all TfL employees.

 

[Goldfish62]

Oh but we are not. Nobody is denying LUL is part of TfL. You seem to think it's all one big company, which is wrong. They are separate employers with separate terms and conditions, and separate rules and policies. Your claim of LUL staff being 'in denial' and finding it 'tiresome' says a lot about your lack of knowledge. As you don't appear to work for either of the employers mentioned, probably best to stay out of topics that don't concern you.

There really is no need to be so aggressive. Prior to retirement I had lengthy service with TfL and predessessors.

I worked on the bus side and constantly came up against LU management who behaved like they were nothing to do with TfL. It was extremely tiresome and often stood in the way of resolving simple issues.

 

[Mawkie]

I worked on the bus side and constantly came up against LU management who behaved like they were nothing to do with TfL. It was extremely tiresome and often stood in the way of resolving simple issues.

I agree, I'm sure you must have heard the old nonsense, "LU is the only part of TfL that makes money - buses only run coz of the profit we make."

We are OneTeam (but only when it suits management )

To bring back on track a little....Talks resumed at ACAS yesterday and continue today, so at least everyone is around the table talking.

 

[Goldfish62]

To bring back on track a little....Talks resumed at ACAS yesterday and continue today, so at least everyone is around the table talking.

That's hopeful news. As it is TfL are saying little or no tube service next week, so I hope minds are most definitely focussed on the talks.

 

[LTJ87]

TfL has just put out a press release about the strike.

TfL advises Tube customers to only travel if their journey is essential during planned RMT strike

TfL advises Tube customers to only travel if their journey is essential during planned RMT strike

tfl.gov.uk

TfL will operate as much of the network as possible, but it is currently expecting the following service throughout the week:

• On Sunday 7 January, Tube services will end earlier than normal. Customers are advised to complete Tube journeys by 17:30, although lines serving the Emirates will try to remain open longer. Football fans are encouraged to make their way straight to the trains after the match as services will start to close from 19:30 on those lines
• From Monday 8 to Thursday 11 January, severe disruption is expected, with little to no Tube service expected to run
• On Friday 12 January, Tube services will start later than normal, with a good service expected by 12:00

 

[D7666]

w.r.t. to those still thinking we are one happy family, we are not.



As one employed now by TfL formerly LU - and was TUPE'd from LU to TfL a few years back - one can assure you LU and TfL are different employers. If they were the same employer there would have been no TUPE. I have the same job function, I do the same work. But the employer is different, job title is different, job grade is different.

LU and TfL have different terms and conditions, different pay scales, different grading systems, different pay bands within grades, different contractual and non contractual benefits, different methods of pay awards/increases, and resulting from the latter different effects on pensions contributions.

 

[Goldfish62]

w.r.t. to those still thinking we are one happy family, we are not.



As one employed now by TfL formerly LU - and was TUPE'd from LU to TfL a few years back - one can assure you LU and TfL are different employers. If they were the same employer there would have been no TUPE. I have the same job function, I do the same work. But the employer is different, job title is different, job grade is different.

LU and TfL have different terms and conditions, different pay scales, different grading systems, different pay bands within grades, different contractual and non contractual benefits, different methods of pay awards/increases, and resulting from the latter different effects on pensions contributions.

There are also different Ts and Cs and pay scales within the employer known as TfL. Doesn't make the affected jobs any less TfL though.

However, this is all completely irrelevant. It started when someone suggested that those working on EL and LO are colleagues of LU staff when clearly they're not because Arriva Rail London and MTR Elizabeth line are not owned by TfL and are merely contractors, just the same as GoAhead London, RATP, Stagecoach etc.

 

[paul332]

I'm sure all the nurses, teachers, hospitality workers and general public who won't be able to get to work or their holidays will completely understand the plight, terrible pay and conditions that these poor train drivers are forced to endure, and will support them to the hilt. I know I do.

 

[Thirteen]

That's hopeful news. As it is TfL are saying little or no tube service next week, so I hope minds are most definitely focussed on the talks.

I would imagine TfL is just covering their backs in case talks breaks down.

 

[KingKiev123]

I'm sure all the nurses, teachers, hospitality workers and general public who won't be able to get to work or their holidays will completely understand the plight, terrible pay and conditions that these poor train drivers are forced to endure, and will support them to the hilt. I know I do.

Why is it that people always assume that it will be the drivers striking? ASLEF (the driver union) voted to accept the pay deal. It will mostly be the rest of us that are striking