Penalty fare dispute

[Eric]

I appear to have got myself in trouble tonight and need help. I was visiting my old school in Frizinghall (Bradford Grammar school) and rather than use the free bus pas, I decided to walk the short journey to Frizinghall and catch the train into Bradford for the sake of nostalgia.

I walked onto the platform and saw no Ticket Machine facilities to purchase my £1.30 ticket. The train arrived and I got in the second carriage from the front. I presume because it’s such a short journey into Forster Square that the conductor never came through the train.

On arrival at Forster Square, I approached the two male gatestaff to buy a ticket. They refused to issue me with a ticket claiming I’d got on further down the line and have travelled without a ticket in a penalty fare zone.

I argued that there’s no ticket machine at Frizinghall, they said there is one on the Leeds/Ilkley/Skipton platform and I should have used that. I said there was no signage or any indication the ticket machine even existed on that platform because it’s over a bridge and then the platform is the other side of said bridge.

Do they seriously expect people to know all things? This was the first time I’ve visited Frizinghall in what must be 30 years.

They have taken my name and address for a penalty fare and despite me holding out £1.30 they blatantly refused to take it. Instead they let me through without paying.

I thought this was a trick of them to catch me out for not paying, so I went to the ticket machine behind platform three and bought the £1.30 ticket so that I can complain to Northern about this harassment and aggressive behaviour by their gate line staff.

How can behaviour like this be allowed to take place?

 

[clagmonster]

By the book they were in the right, though I do think it is harsh if there is a platform with a station entrance that there isn't a ticket machine provided. The one way in which you could be able to appeal a penalty fare is if you there was insufficient signage advertising the penalty fare scheme in operation. This usually takes the form of yellow posters.

Did you receive any paperwork?

 

[Eric]

Yes, a penalty fare ticket. It says if I wish to appeal against a Penalty Fare you must do so in writing within 21 days after the date of the issue and send it to the appeals address.

There were no yellow posters and no ticket machine on the Bradford platform.

This seriously cannot be right when I had railcard and money to pay. Why else would I present myself to the man with the ticket machine around his neck.

I’m getting more disillusioned with travelling by train as each passing day comes.

 

[clagmonster]

The ticket machine on the other platform is a ticket purchasing facility at that station. I would appeal on grounds of insufficient signage, others will probably help with how to word said appeal.

I do actually agree with you on the principle, if they are going to have penalty fares they should have decent facilities for passengers to pay their fares.

 

[yorkie]

I argued that there’s no ticket machine at Frizinghall, they said there is one on the Leeds/Ilkley/Skipton platform and I should have used that. I said there was no signage or any indication the ticket machine even existed on that platform because it’s over a bridge and then the platform is the other side of said bridge.

Do they seriously expect people to know all things? This was the first time I’ve visited Frizinghall in what must be 30 years.

This is how Northern operate, yes.

They have taken my name and address for a penalty fare and despite me holding out £1.30 they blatantly refused to take it. Instead they let me through without paying.

I thought this was a trick of them to catch me out for not paying, so I went to the ticket machine behind platform three and bought the £1.30 ticket so that I can complain to Northern about this harassment and aggressive behaviour by their gate line staff.

How can behaviour like this be allowed to take place?

They will not give a damn about allegations of harassment and aggressive behaviour; any such complaint can be made but keep it separate to your appeal which should stick to the facts.

As for how it is allowed to take place, it's allowed because the DfT want this to happen.

Yes, a penalty fare ticket. It says if I wish to appeal against a Penalty Fare you must do so in writing within 21 days after the date of the issue and send it to the appeals address.

There were no yellow posters and no ticket machine on the Bradford platform.

This seriously cannot be right when I had railcard and money to pay. Why else would I present myself to the man with the ticket machine around his neck.

I’m getting more disillusioned with travelling by train as each passing day comes.

That appears to be the intention of most DfT policies, including their Penalty Fare scheme requirements. However let's not go into that on this thread, as it won't be helpful to your appeal.

I'd go back there and establish exactly what is there in terms of ticket machine (and what payment methods it accepts) and signage (or lack of) and gather evidence. Had this cropped up last week I could have gone there myself, but I am not able to for a few weeks now.

 

[Eric]

This is how Northern operate, yes.

They will not give a damn about allegations of harassment and aggressive behaviour; any such complaint can be made but keep it separate to your appeal which should stick to the facts.

As for how it is allowed to take place, it's allowed because the DfT want this to happen.


That appears to be the intention of most DfT policies, including their Penalty Fare scheme requirements. However let's not go into that on this thread, as it won't be helpful to your appeal.

I'd go back there and establish exactly what is there in terms of ticket machine (and what payment methods it accepts) and signage (or lack of) and gather evidence. Had this cropped up last week I could have gone there myself, but I am not able to for a few weeks now.

There was no signage or ticket machine on the platform.

How am I supposed to know the other platform up and over the bridge and then down the road to the other platform has one?

I’d not physically visited Frizinghall since the early 90s.

This is ridiculous from Northern and to the gateman who said used the app, I don’t know a thing about apps other than they use your data and I’m forever disabling them on my phone. .

 

[Eric]

The ticket machine on the other platform is a ticket purchasing facility at that station. I would appeal on grounds of insufficient signage, others will probably help with how to word said appeal.

I do actually agree with you on the principle, if they are going to have penalty fares they should have decent facilities for passengers to pay their fares.

If you could help me that would be greatly appreciated.

I certainly wasn’t aware of any signs on the platform saying ‘ticket machine on platform one’.

 

[furlong]

Firstly, you (or someone nearby) should take photos of the passenger routes through the station from all entrances, showing all Penalty Fares posters.

Compliance of a station with the new regulations seems now to be a simple question of fact: either the station complies entirely and PFs can be issued, or it does not and no PF can be issued to anyone.
(Your route through the station no longer appears to have any relevance - all passenger routes through the station must comply if any PF is to be issued).
If you appeal on those grounds, it is for the company to prove that the station complied when you travelled (but if you obtain evidence of non-compliance, I'd still suggest you submit it even though there's no requirement for you to do so - the onus is entirely on the company to disprove your assertions).

During my travels on the network, I've come across a significant number of stations that don't seem to comply with the strict new regulations. It's completely inexcusable as the whole Penalty Fare system is grounded on the assumption that the signs are so prominent that anyone claiming not to realise they should have got a ticket/permit before boarding can reasonably be assumed to be lying.

 

[furlong]

It's completely inexcusable as the whole Penalty Fare system is grounded on the assumption that the signs are so prominent that anyone claiming not to realise they should have got a ticket/permit before boarding can reasonably be assumed to be lying.

It sounds like the staff you encountered understood the second part of that correctly - the question is whether the train company complied with the first part, a prerequisite for the second. You'll find the regulations at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made . Ignore references to compulsory ticket areas (hardly any of these exist).

Display of Notices

8.—(1) The requirements for the display of notices are as follows.

(2) Where any entrance onto a platform at the station is not the entrance to, or situated within, a compulsory ticket area, a notice complying with the requirements of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 (“a standard notice”) must be displayed at that entrance.
...
(4) Standard notices and compulsory ticket area notices must also be displayed at sufficient locations around the station so that at least one notice is readily visible to passengers prior to boarding a train at the station, including passengers changing from one train to another train.

...

Standard notice

1.—(1) A standard notice must contain—

(a)the penalty fares logo as shown in Part 3;

(b)the word “WARNING” in large, prominent text at the top of the notice;

(c)the wording “Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare”;

(d)the wording “A Penalty Fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable to your journey (whichever is greater)”;

(e)wording which indicates where information about the circumstances in which a person may be charged a penalty fare in relation to travel by, presence on or leaving a train is published or may be obtained; and

(f)the logo, and name if the logo does not contain the name, of each operator that charges penalty fares in relation to trains arriving at or departing from the area of the station to which the notice applies.

...

(3) The grounds on which an appeal under this regulation may be made are that—

(a)the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations;

 

[Eric]

Firstly, you (or someone nearby) should take photos of the passenger routes through the station from all entrances, showing all Penalty Fares posters.

Compliance of a station with the new regulations seems now to be a simple question of fact: either the station complies entirely and PFs can be issued, or it does not and no PF can be issued to anyone.
(Your route through the station no longer appears to have any relevance - all passenger routes through the station must comply if any PF is to be issued).
If you appeal on those grounds, it is for the company to prove that the station complied when you travelled (but if you obtain evidence of non-compliance, I'd still suggest you submit it even though there's no requirement for you to do so - the onus is entirely on the company to disprove your assertions).

During my travels on the network, I've come across a significant number of stations that don't seem to comply with the strict new regulations. It's completely inexcusable as the whole Penalty Fare system is grounded on the assumption that the signs are so prominent that anyone claiming not to realise they should have got a ticket/permit before boarding can reasonably be assumed to be lying.

So you suggest that I go to Frizinghall station tomorrow and take pictures of all the signs leading to Platform Two?

Platform One is up the road outside the station and over the bridge and then down the other road. Any posters there where I presume the ticket machine is are not visible to passengers going to Bradford.

How do I date my photographs to show there isn’t any penalty fare notices? Will Northern suddenly put penalty fare posters at the station?

 

[furlong]

So you have two requirements there.

Firstly, under 8(2), there must be a notice at every entrance - but note that these are now allowed to be in hidden locations that you wouldn't see unless you were specifically looking. (For example at right angles to your line of sight or even behind you as you enter!)

But the important one that sets the threshold is 8(4) which requires that "at least one" notice is "readily visible" prior to boarding a train. You are claiming this was untrue. Retrace your steps and see if you missed something "readily visible" or if the station doesn't comply with the rules. Also check the wording of any posters you find carefully against those requirements - I've seen many posters that don't use the required words.

 

[furlong]

The way these appeals work is that your statements (including when and where you took photos) are assumed to be correct unless the train company proves otherwise.

(4) Where the appellant makes representations as part of an appeal under this regulation in relation to any of the matters specified in paragraph (5), it is for the operator on whose behalf the penalty fare was charged to provide evidence that reasonably demonstrates that any fact described by the appellant in relation to any of those matters is not true.

6.—(1) Subject to paragraph (6), a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train (in this regulation “the passenger”) must not be charged a penalty fare where either paragraph (2) or (3) applies.

(2) This paragraph applies if, at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train—

(a)there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket for that passenger’s journey;

(b)the requirements for the display of notices specified in regulation 8 were not satisfied;

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Simply put, Northern have one template which they use for Penalty Fares posters. That template is simply not compliant with the relevant Regulations and hence any Penalty Fare issued by them is void and null - compliance with all of the Regulations by the scheme operator is an issue of 'strict liability', so to speak (similarly to the Penalty Fares scheme!).

They could change it easily enough (it would cost them a fair amount in printing and labour costs, but it would be doable). However they are very unlikely to do so, so I would not worry unnecessarily about the potential risk of them subsequently putting up posters.

At the end of the day, it is for them to prove that a Penalty Fare is owed, and to rebut any points of appeal you make - that is, if they were to take it to County Court, which is absolutely unheard of. The alternative is that they withdraw the Penalty Fare and instead decide to prosecute you under. for example, Railway Byelaw 18, which purports to make boarding a train without a ticket a strict liability offence where no permission to do so has been obtained and there are facilities to have bought a ticket before boarding.

In my view the question of the existence of facilities is a key question for any such prosecution and so I think Northern would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there were indeed purchasing facilities. I don't think this can reasonably be said if, for example, there was no indication that purchasing faciilties existed when entering the station from a given route.

This is by no means an isolated issue - just the other day I boarded a train at Low Moor and, had I not been in the presence of other people more familiar with the station, I would not have realised that there is one single TVM in the car park some meters away. up a slight embankment. It is by no means obvious, or signed (like it always is in Scotland, for example).

In any case - in my view a Byelaw 18 prosecution is doomed to fail insofar as Byelaw 18 is ultra vires (i.e. unlawful) by itself. See discussion on this here. I am sure the members here would be more than happy to give advice if you wished to defend the Penalty Fare, and/or any resultant prosecution, on this (or any other legitimate) basis.

Have you already paid the Penalty Fare?

 

[furlong]

Once you've established whether any of these regulations were breached, you need to write a concise appeal that quotes the relevant regulations (like I extracted some bits above) and sets out the mistake that you believe was made. If there are multiple grounds for a successful appeal list each of them independently.

If you have paid already, the new regulations make it quite clear the company has to reimburse you the entire amount - it cannot deduct any amount for a fare it still wants you pay, but must pursue that separately if it thinks it's still so entitled (and there's an untested argument that the existence of the appeals procedure means you get the journey for nothing after a successful appeal, as you discharged your contractual duty to pay your fare by paying the Penalty Fare and then the appeal process mandates that it is reimbursed in full without providing for any residual liability).

 

[Hadders]

So you suggest that I go to Frizinghall station tomorrow and take pictures of all the signs leading to Platform Two?

Platform One is up the road outside the station and over the bridge and then down the other road. Any posters there where I presume the ticket machine is are not visible to passengers going to Bradford.

How do I date my photographs to show there isn’t any penalty fare notices? Will Northern suddenly put penalty fare posters at the station?

Yes, go to the station as soon as possible and take photos.

 

[30907]

The walking time from P2 to P1 and back is, according to Googlemaps, 6 minutes. Even had you gone directly to P1, as someone in the know would, that's 4 minutes.

Comparing the other causes celebres on the line, Silsden and Cononley, it's more than twice the time at Silsden, and you would be unlucky to need 6 minutes at Cononley even on a bad day.

Even if there is a poster, and I would appeal on the ground that there is no means to buy a ticket within a reasonable distance (nor, I presume, any way of knowing where the machine is?), and if necessary take it up with Metro etc.

 

[thejuggler]

Frizinghall is similar to Bramley on Caldervale line - offset platforms with significant walks between the two and two separate entrances. In such circumstances there should be a TVM on each platform, but as the regs only require one per station so that's what you get. The issue at Frizinghall is also further compounded by the fact the (admittedly small) car park is adjacent to the Bradford platform entrance.

As regards signage, Bramley has a warning of penalties poster, but the actual sign saying where the machine is is small and at the top of a post at least 8ft above ground and amongst every growing trees. It isn't anywhere you would look and there are far more noticeable places it could be mounted. If you aren't using the car park you would not see the TVM if going to the Bradford platform.

 

[pompeyfan]

Reading through this makes a mockery of the whole PF system. Penalising someone who sounds like they honestly intended to pay their fare, and yet I regularly see wilful fare evaders who barge through RPIs or hop the barriers to avoid payment who go unchallenged. I admit life isn’t fair but it smacks of picking on those willing to comply.

I’m aware the above isn’t constructive to the discussion but it’s actually wound me up.

 

[Eric]

The walking time from P2 to P1 and back is, according to Googlemaps, 6 minutes. Even had you gone directly to P1, as someone in the know would, that's 4 minutes.

Comparing the other causes celebres on the line, Silsden and Cononley, it's more than twice the time at Silsden, and you would be unlucky to need 6 minutes at Cononley even on a bad day.

Even if there is a poster, and I would appeal on the ground that there is no means to buy a ticket within a reasonable distance (nor, I presume, any way of knowing where the machine is?), and if necessary take it up with Metro etc.

Is that six minutes to a normal person? I'm retired and not as quick on my feet as I would like to be these days, but I know from what I experienced yesterday that you have to walk quite a distance up and over the bridge and then down the side of the road and access platform one through the carpark.

My son is taking me to the train station later when he's finished work. We're going to take photos and hopefully make Northern Rail see sense.

I will report back and hopefully post the photos on here for you to see.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reading through this makes a mockery of the whole PF system. Penalising someone who sounds like they honestly intended to pay their fare, and yet I regularly see wilful fare evaders who barge through RPIs or hop the barriers to avoid payment who go unchallenged. I admit life isn’t fair but it smacks of picking on those willing to comply.

I’m aware the above isn’t constructive to the discussion but it’s actually wound me up.

It's a typical Northern half-job, followed by their contracted thugs throwing the PFs and prosecutions around. It is a serious attitude problem and it stinks.

South East operators who have had PFs for years manage to do it properly.

If only one TVM is affordable, logic says it should be placed in the nearest location as possible to being convenient for both platforms, and that there should be clear signage on any other platform and at station entrances denoting where it is and that its use is mandatory.

 

[30907]

Is that six minutes to a normal person? I'm retired and not as quick on my feet as I would like to be these days, but I know from what I experienced yesterday that you have to walk quite a distance up and over the bridge and then down the side of the road and access platform one through the carpark.

Not able to do a site visit today so I will leave it to you! Googlemaps says 0.2miles which is a long 3 minutes, but you have to allow for rounding.
Bramley shows up as 0.1m and 3 min, and is definitely shorter.

If only one TVM is affordable, logic says it should be placed in the nearest location as possible to being convenient for both platforms, and that there should be clear signage on any other platform and at station entrances denoting where it is and that its use is mandatory.

In none of these cases is there an obvious central location, unlike (say) Saltaire. I would be content with one machine placed on the main departure platform PROVIDED that PFs were then not enforced from the other platform. That would be workable at Frizinghall, Cononley and Steeton, being close to a terminus, but more difficult at Bramley.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In none of these cases is there an obvious central location, unlike (say) Saltaire. I would be content with one machine placed on the main departure platform PROVIDED that PFs were then not enforced from the other platform. That would be workable at Frizinghall, Cononley and Steeton, being close to a terminus, but more difficult at Bramley.

Yes, that would be an acceptable solution. Passengers should not be expected to make a long walk to buy a ticket just because the TOC is too cheap to provide a TVM on each platform.

Anyone familiar with Aughton Park on Merseyrail at all? It's my old local station and is situated in a deep cutting with steps and ramps to the platforms. If it had a TVM on the Liverpool bound platforms, passengers bound for Ormskirk would spend more time walking down and back up again than they'd spend on the train; it would be plainly ridiculous.

 

[robbeech]

I’m not familiar with the station. Does the machine accept cash and cards?
You say you held out the £1.30 which implies you wanted to pay cash. If the machine is card only then you had no means to pay. I assume it accepts both as someone who knows the station would have mentioned by now.

Also, you say you’re not as quick on your feet, and you hold a railcard, if you don’t mind me asking is it a senior railcard or a disabled one? If the latter then you are allowed to purchase a ticket on the train (or at your destination If the opportunity doesn’t present itself) anyway.

 

[NoOnesFool]

It does not matter that ticket purchase point (TVM) was over the bridge, the fact of the matter is, there was one at the station of origin for your journey. The fact that you didn't speak to the conductor on the train to buy a ticket doesn't help your case either. You broke the law, and now you need to pay the Penalty.

 

[323235]

Strictly speaking in a penalty fare zone you need a promise to pay if paying by cash, so you should have walked 6 minutes to get a free promise to pay to come back and board the train and buy a ticket at the first opportunity.

The other thing is that Northern machines are constantly defective and out of service , yet they don't always put it on Journeycheck.

I think the whole situation is reduculous and you should not have to pay a penalty fare , even if you technically liable as it is a shambolic situation.

The fact that Northern have a penalty fare scheme is unacceptable with the machines they currently have in place and the lack of a machine on every platform on every station.

 

[Eric]

Me and my son went to Frizinghall this evening to take pictures and look for penalty fare notices. The platform to Bradford is platform 2 and not platform 1 as I had previously mentioned so apologies. The pictures if they have loaded properly are all from this platform. We looked to find notices of penalty fares and the yellow posters that some have mentioned on here and we found nothing. We even timed the walk from Platform 2 to 1 to The ticket machine on platform 1 which took 6 minutes and 37 seconds, platform 1 also has no penalty fare notices. How can Northern behave like this?

My son is going to email the evidence to Northern tomorrow which my family have used and fight this injustice.

 

[Eric]

I hope the photographs we took are visible for you to see. Northern should be ashamed.

 

[Eric]

It does not matter that ticket purchase point (TVM) was over the bridge, the fact of the matter is, there was one at the station of origin for your journey. The fact that you didn't speak to the conductor on the train to buy a ticket doesn't help your case either. You broke the law, and now you need to pay the Penalty.

It is three minutes from Frizinghall to Bradford and it was a four carriage busy train in the evening. The conductor never came to see me to offer me the ability to purchase a ticket. I offered to pay at Forster Square which has three ticket machines behind platforms two and three.

I strongly disagree that I’m in the wrong here. Instead they give me a penalty fare.

 

[furlong]

So are you honestly saying you couldn't find one of the penalty fares posters anywhere at the station? If so, I'd not only appeal, but write firmly to the DfT pointing out the blatant disregard of the rules and ask them to take immediate action. If you're up to it you could involve your MP and the press.

 

[furlong]

Wasn't there a thread on here before about reports of a local MP taking interest in Northern's behaviour, who might be interested to pursue this?