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Penalty fare dispute
- Thread starter Eric
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I'd say that counts. Its got the same info that a PERITS ticket would have.
ForTheLoveOf
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As has been stated thought, it lacks a key feature of "tickets" as defined by the NRCoT.
Any argument by Northern (or other TOCs) that a "Promise to Pay Notice", despite being entitled a "Notice" and clearly not being a "ticket" as defined by the NRCoT, is nevertheless a "ticket" under alleged separate and different definition of "ticket" used in Byelaw 18(3)(i) - is simply ludcrous. "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, what is it?" (or rather, "if it doesn't....") applies here.
Something you pay nothing for, and which you obtain merely to avoid being threatened with a civil penalty, and which states only an origin and no destination or zone of validity, is not a ticket. A machine which dispenses such items - regardless of what the machine is called or what the item is called - is unquestionably not a "[facility] in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket", and as such the defence afforded by Byelaw 18(3)(i) is engaged if Northern were silly enough to prosecute this.
As I and others have said, being free doesn't mean it isn't a ticket. The only reason PERTIS machines charged was to stop people pressing the button and wasting the ticket stock.
ForTheLoveOf
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A ticket you pay nothing for means there is no consideration. Hence there can be no enforceable rights or obligations under the contract - until you actually get on the train, when an implied contract is formed. Something that you pay nothing for is very difficult to qualify as a ticket in the railway world, simply accept it.
Hence why it's called a Promise to Pay Permit.
Take a picture of a current daily newspaper in some of your shots.
What about Free Passes and the like?
Eric
Member
Had a lovely apologetic reply from Northern this afternoon confirming I’ll be refunded the penalty fare I paid.
I won’t reveal too much from the email but they took into account my evidence and the way the gate attendant spoke to me and agreed the signage at Frizinghall isn’t adequate to enforce penalty fares.
I don’t think platform two will get a ticket machine, but there will be a sign that directs people to platform one in the future.
Faith restored.
I won’t reveal too much from the email but they took into account my evidence and the way the gate attendant spoke to me and agreed the signage at Frizinghall isn’t adequate to enforce penalty fares.
I don’t think platform two will get a ticket machine, but there will be a sign that directs people to platform one in the future.
Faith restored.
The law permits train companies to make completely unjustified charges - your £20 fare as a penalty for not searching every square metre of the station to see if a ticket machine exist is just one of a vast number of examples of this. Northern chose not to provide another ticket machine before beginning to charge Penalty Fares, and these problems have been highlighted on this forum and elsewhere ad infinitum. Of course, there are those who say that these problems simply don't exist, and that by extension people (like you) who have been charged immorally do not exist.
It seems that you got a very lucky outcome! Imagine what would have happened if you didn't have the time, knowledge and patience to get this outcome...
It sounds like they've accepted that they haven't met the conditions to be able to issue Penalty Fares from that station and common sense has prevailed. Thanks for letting us know.
Eric
Member
It will be interesting to see what new signs they put up at the station in the coming days.
I would still argue that a sign on Platform Two instructing passengers to go up the road and over the bridge and then back around and down to the machine on Platform One (it took me just over six minutes to walk) isn’t ideal, but at least people will know it’s there.
Hopefully my incident has made Northern review all their stations.
Fawkes Cat
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This is good news: thanks for sharing it with us.
I hope it is not going off at too much of a tangent if we note for future reference (and for anyone with a similar problem who finds this thread) that the way you reacted to Northern's accusation was to
- check the facts on the ground (i.e. the absence of signage)
- document what you found (take photos)
- get in touch with Northern quickly, presenting your evidence.
This seems to me to be the perfect way to do it, and Northern have conceded within a week of the original incident.
A good result, and perhaps a model for others to follow?
I hope it is not going off at too much of a tangent if we note for future reference (and for anyone with a similar problem who finds this thread) that the way you reacted to Northern's accusation was to
- check the facts on the ground (i.e. the absence of signage)
- document what you found (take photos)
- get in touch with Northern quickly, presenting your evidence.
This seems to me to be the perfect way to do it, and Northern have conceded within a week of the original incident.
A good result, and perhaps a model for others to follow?
Eric
Member
It would seem the logical thing to do, especially if you knew without doubt that there wasn't any signs warning you of Penalty Fare notices.
I do wonder how many other stations on the Northern network have slipped through the net regarding poor penalty fare signage?
Frizinghall isn't the busiest station on the Northern network and given its complex layout with you having to exit the station and walk around it, perhaps Frizinghall is just an isolated incident that they missed off the list?
some bloke
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If Northern saw this thread, that might be another factor.
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Silverdale
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Given the approach of the OP and evidence presented to them, Northern really had no option but to withdraw the penalty fare and apologise. Nice job Eric.
The signage at Frizinghall is doubly deficient. Firstly that due to the layout of the station, it is not clear that the does have ticket issuing facility and secondly, regardless of that fact, that penalty fares apply from the station.
Northern have accepted that the errors are theirs as far as the OP is concerned. The acid test will be whether, having had these matters brought to their attention in this way, the signage is changed at Frizinghall, or they go the low-cost route and simply apologise and withdraw penalty fares issued to customers who bother to collect the evidence and complain.
The signage at Frizinghall is doubly deficient. Firstly that due to the layout of the station, it is not clear that the does have ticket issuing facility and secondly, regardless of that fact, that penalty fares apply from the station.
Northern have accepted that the errors are theirs as far as the OP is concerned. The acid test will be whether, having had these matters brought to their attention in this way, the signage is changed at Frizinghall, or they go the low-cost route and simply apologise and withdraw penalty fares issued to customers who bother to collect the evidence and complain.
Eric
Member
Do train operating companies actually read these threads?
some bloke
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Absolutely. Depending upon the topic it can have positive or negative results for passengers.
Well, a timetable anomaly in the current North Downs Line service was fixed after I raised the issue on this forum. See here:-
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-2019-timetable-change.165974/page-2#post-3574617
Well done on pursuing this.
Getting adequate signage up is a step in the right direction and I can understand that having to have a working machine on every platform might be overkill, but nobody should be expected to have to leave a station to access a machine.
Anyone who knows Frizinghall will know that, the two platforms are pretty much two separate stations, and without measuring it exactly probably longer than going between Wigan North Western and Wallgate stations.
Eric
Member
I never looked at it like that. What doesn’t help Frizinghall is that the entrances to both platforms are at polar opposites at each end of the bridge, so it would be impossible to see the ticket machine in the platform shelter on Platform One unless you walked down the road and steps and went on the platform itself.
Yes, and RDG, DfT, third party suppliers do too.
Haywain
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And this should not be regarded as being entirely negative.
thejuggler
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Same as Bramley - although I did notice the Penalty station sign and notice of location of ticket machine sign is now on a new pole and at a sensible height. However I would argue the font is far too small for the amount of text on the sign, considering you are a few feet away when trying to read it.
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