Penalty fare issues

[thw6]

Hiya I was issued with a penalty fare on Eastleigh to Fareham. I had a valid ticket when the inspector scanned my train ticket and the machine told him to issue a penalty fare. I appealed which was rejected and had a letter saying “I understand a valid ticket was unavailable for inspection “and produce for inspection a valid ticket as evidence of their right to make a journey on the relevant train”.

 

[RPI]

Did you buy the ticket after the train had departed? IE did you buy it whilst you were sat on the train?

 

[methecooldude]

Can you upload a photo of any paperwork you were issued, reacting any personal information

 

[thw6]

Did you buy the ticket after the train had departed? IE did you buy it whilst you were sat on the train?

I probably did thinking about it but was before ticket inspector checked

This is the letter I had

This is the letter to contradict the letter the notice wasn’t given after the journey I was still on the train and I had a ticket to show the revenue inspector and he scanned it. This feels like extortion.

Again the notice says no ticket which was obviously not the case

 

[island]

You may wish to edit the image as it currently displays personal details.

I can see that you purchased the ticket at 07:42 on 07•MCH•24, two minutes before the Penalty Fare was issued and fourteen minutes after the train left Eastleigh.

Why didn't you buy a ticket before getting on the train? Eastleigh station ticket office opens at 06:00, and there are also vending machines.

 

[thw6]

I buy my tickets on my phone because I can have travel paid for for work purposes

 

[island]

I buy my tickets on my phone because I can have travel paid for for work purposes

That doesn't answer the question of why didn't you buy it before getting on the train.

At the moment what I'm seeing is someone who paid only when they heard/saw an inspector coming round, which is a criminal offence under section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act.

 

[furlong]

So, the timing here is absolutely crucial.

At the FIRST point in time that you were asked to present your ticket, had you already completed the purchase of it?
If you had, then you should persist with your appeal on those grounds.

However, the letter does state otherwise. Is it wrong?

- What time did you board the train?
- What time did you complete the ticket purchase?
- What time were you asked for your ticket?
- What time was printed on the Penalty Fare that was issued?

Note that there is a byelaw that requires you to buy your ticket before you board when you can do so. Buying it after the train has departed does not make the ticket invalid, but neither does it retrospectively cancel out the offence of boarding without a valid ticket. A Penalty Fare focusses on whether you are in possession of a valid ticket at the point in time when you are asked to show one. (Unless there are exceptional circumstances, you can only face one sanction, not both. Once they've decided to use a Penalty Fare and especially after an appeal has been decided, they can't change theirs minds and prosecute.)

 

[thw6]

So, the timing here is absolutely crucial.

At the FIRST point in time that you were asked to present your ticket, had you already completed the purchase of it?
If you had, then you should persist with your appeal on those grounds.

However, the letter does state otherwise. Is it wrong?

- What time did you board the train?
- What time did you complete the ticket purchase?
- What time were you asked for your ticket?
- What time was printed on the Penalty Fare that was issued?

Note that there is a byelaw that requires you to buy your ticket before you board when you can do so. Buying it after the train has departed does not make the ticket invalid, but neither does it retrospectively cancel out the offence of boarding without a valid ticket. A Penalty Fare focusses on whether you are in possession of a valid ticket at the point in time when you are asked to show one. (Unless there are exceptional circumstances, you can only face one sanction, not both. Once they've decided to use a Penalty Fare and especially after an appeal has been decided, they can't change theirs minds and prosecute.)

Yes I had purchased the ticket by the time the inspector had seen me. He had scanned my ticket but the machine told him to issue a penalty fare.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Does the penalty fare have your details on it?

 

[furlong]

The letter you attached states otherwise.
Please tell us the actual times.

 

[Llanigraham]

I buy my tickets on my phone because I can have travel paid for for work purposes

Most companies should be quite happy re-embursing you for tickets bought in paper format from a ticket office or machine, both of which were available from your starting station.

 

[furlong]

Also the machine cannot instruct him to issue a Penalty Fare. That is a decision only he can make.

The stated reason is "No ticket". The timings really are crucial. That would be taken to mean you did not present the ticket when you were FIRST asked to show it.
If you can prove that explanation of why it was issued was incorrect then you can appeal on the basis that it wasn't issued in accordance with the regulations.

4.—(1) A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket.
...
5.—(1) Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare.

 

[island]

So, the timing here is absolutely crucial.

At the FIRST point in time that you were asked to present your ticket, had you already completed the purchase of it?
If you had, then you should persist with your appeal on those grounds.

However, the letter does state otherwise. Is it wrong?

- What time did you board the train?
- What time did you complete the ticket purchase?
- What time were you asked for your ticket?
- What time was printed on the Penalty Fare that was issued?

Note that there is a byelaw that requires you to buy your ticket before you board when you can do so. Buying it after the train has departed does not make the ticket invalid, but neither does it retrospectively cancel out the offence of boarding without a valid ticket. A Penalty Fare focusses on whether you are in possession of a valid ticket at the point in time when you are asked to show one. (Unless there are exceptional circumstances, you can only face one sanction, not both. Once they've decided to use a Penalty Fare and especially after an appeal has been decided, they can't change theirs minds and prosecute.)

This is correct advice, albeit highly technical and it is not assured that the appeals panels will recognise it. However, as an appeal has already been decided, the OP can no longer be prosecuted for the violation.

The letter you attached states otherwise.
Please tell us the actual times.

As already posted above, the penalty fare was printed at 07:44 and the ticket was purchased at 07:42. The train left at 07:28. The OP will need to advise when they were asked for a ticket, but I can easily see it taking more than two minutes for an inspector to ask for someone's ticket, determine that a penalty fare is appropriate, and type up the penalty fare.

 

[thw6]

I purchased the ticket

Most companies should be quite happy re-embursing you for tickets bought in paper format from a ticket office or machine, both of which were available from your starting station.

But I use the SWR app as its convenient for me

This is correct advice, albeit highly technical and it is not assured that the appeals panels will recognise it. However, as an appeal has already been decided, the OP can no longer be prosecuted for the violation.

As already posted above, the penalty fare was printed at 07:44 and the ticket was purchased at 07:42. The train left at 07:28. The OP will need to advise when they were asked for a ticket, but I can easily see it taking more than two minutes for an inspector to ask for someone's ticket, determine that a penalty fare is appropriate, and type up the penalty fare.

I was asked for a ticket after I purchased I assume at 7.43 and the ticket was scanned by the machine. If I didn’t have the ticket then I would hold my hands up and say it’s my fault

 

[island]

I was asked for a ticket after I purchased and the ticket was scanned by the machine.

Asking for the third time, why did you not purchase a ticket before getting on the train?

 

[methecooldude]

I purchased the ticket

But I use the SWR app as its convenient for me

Cool, so why didn't you use it to buy the ticket before boarding the train 14 minutes ealier?

 

[glasgowniteowl]

You seem to be being a bit vague about when you bought the ticket and exactly what happened, saying that you probably did buy it after the train departed, surely you know exactly what happened and when? And why not just say exactly the sequence of events

 

[thw6]

Cool, so why didn't you use it to buy the ticket before boarding the train 14 minutes ealier?

I did start it but was on a rush and didn’t quite finish buying it.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The letter of rejection explicitly says that the ticket was purchased whilst the penalty fare was being issued. Do you dispute that version of events?

I did start it but was on a rush and didn’t quite finish buying it.

And what happened in the intervening 14 minutes once on the train?

 

[thw6]

You seem to be being a bit vague about when you bought the ticket and exactly what happened, saying that you probably did buy it after the train departed, surely you know exactly what happened and when? And why not just say exactly the sequence of events

I bought ticket as shown, ticket inspector came over scanned my ticket, machine bleeped and he told me the machine had told him
To print a penalty fare.

The letter of rejection explicitly says that the ticket was purchased whilst the penalty fare was being issued. Do you dispute that version of events?


And what happened in the intervening 14 minutes once on the train?

Yes I dispute the first bit as the ticket was scanned by the revenue inspector. The signal is not the best on that line

 

[island]

Also the machine cannot instruct him to issue a Penalty Fare. That is a decision only he can make.

Likely to be conflict avoidant wording. Nothing turns on this.

 

[methecooldude]

I bought ticket as shown, ticket inspector came over scanned my ticket, machine bleeped and he told me the machine had told him
To print a penalty fare.


Yes I dispute the first bit as the ticket was scanned by the revenue inspector. The signal is not the best on that line

But the signal would have been fine at Eastleigh, where you should have purchased the ticket before boarding the train.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I bought ticket as shown, ticket inspector came over scanned my ticket, machine bleeped and he told me the machine had told him
To print a penalty fare.


Yes I dispute the first bit as the ticket was scanned by the revenue inspector. The signal is not the best on that line

I suspect on balance they may not believe that, given the proximity of the purchase time and time the PF was issued. It was very lucky that the signal improved just as the inspector came along though, wasn’t it?

 

[WesternLancer]

Recall another recent thread where staff who check tickets explained that their scanners are set such that they can tell when a ticket has been bought after the train concerned left (or was scheduled to leave) the station of journey origin stated on the ticket. This automatically would seem to indicate that the passenger had bought after boarding, and had thus commenced their journey without a valid ticket. This is not permitted under the ticket rules, hence the Penalty Fare gets issued.

Not sure what SWR publicity says but many rail companies use the phrase on posters 'Buy Before you Board'

If the OP did no buy before boarding then this is the probable explanation of why the staff member might have said 'the machine says I have to issue a Penalty Fare' or some such similar phrase. Perhaps instead of a more accusatory phrase like 'you only bought this ticket when you saw me coming along checking tickets' which might have potentially aroused conflict / an argument.

I am not saying the OP did that - as they have nowt to gain personally if their travel is refunded by employer anyway - but a member of railway staff would not know that. In post #4 the OP states that they probably bought their ticket after boarding the train, this is not permitted - though I suspect many people do it for all sorts of different reasons.

 

[furlong]

This would have to be a highly-technical appeal.

How did you first know there was a ticket inspection? For example, did you hear a voice saying something like "Tickets please" to the carriage or part of the carriage where you were sitting?

 

[thw6]

The inspector had a body cam so that would prove that when he saw me and scanned my ticket it bleeped and told him to issue the fare. Also for anyone who knows that line will know the signal inbetween Eastleigh and Fareham isn’t the best

suspect on balance they may not believe that, given the proximity of the purchase time and time the PF was issued. It was very lucky that the signal improved just as the inspector came along though, wasn’t it?

I

But the signal would have been fine at Eastleigh, where you should have purchased the ticket before boarding the train.

Agreed but surely common sense in this day and age should apply. A valid ticket shown to an inspector should mean it’s ok. It’s extremely petty. Fareham also has barriers so there wouldn’t have been a chance to avoid paying for a ticket anyway

 

[furlong]

Recall another recent thread where staff who check tickets explained that their scanners are set such that they can tell when a ticket has been bought after the train concerned left (or was scheduled to leave) the station of journey origin stated on the ticket. This automatically would seem to indicate that the passenger had bought after boarding, and had thus commenced their journey without a valid ticket. This is not permitted under the ticket rules, hence the Penalty Fare gets issued.

Incorrect. A Penalty Fare couldn't be issued but a prosecution could be commenced. What I would expect a sensible train company to do would be to record details and issue a warning letter both on the spot and by post, that if they were caught a second time they'd be prosecuted.

But for this thread, what's crucial is the relative timing of the FIRST request to see tickets and the COMPLETION of the ticket purchase. If the inspector made an announcement on entry to the carriage as they often do, buying the ticket after that is too late. (Or at least, the train company can make that as a plausible argument and I think an independent body would be VERY sympathetic to that sort of technicality. "Everyone in the carriage was asked at 07:41 to show a valid ticket. You did not possess one until later.")

 

[island]

I am not saying the OP did that - as they have nowt to gain personally if their travel is refunded by employer anyway - but a member of railway staff would not know that. In post #4 the OP states that they probably bought their ticket after boarding the train, this is not permitted - though I suspect many people do it for all sorts of different reasons.

There can be no question that the ticket was purchased after departure; the ticket Aztec code was attachec upthread and upon scanning revealed purchase time 07:42, 2 minutes before the PF was issued and 14 minutes after the train in question left Eastleigh.

My money's on the app being open with finger on the purchase button, and the button only having been pressed upon seeing an inspector.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The inspector had a body cam so that would prove that when he saw me and scanned my ticket it bleeped and told him to issue the fare. Also for anyone who knows that line will know the signal inbetween Eastleigh and Fareham isn’t the best

I


Agreed but surely common sense in this day and age should apply. A valid ticket shown to an inspector should mean it’s ok. It’s extremely petty. Fareham also has barriers so there wouldn’t have been a chance to avoid paying for a ticket anyway

It’s not at all petty, as accepting tickets bought immediately prior to a ticket inspection would open the floodgates to fraudulent travel.