Penalty Fare - Oyster journey STANDING in first class - appealable?

[Bixer]

Hi all,

Yesterday afternoon me and my girlfriend took what is a fairly regular trip for us from Brentwood to Liverpool Street. For those unsure, this has recently been changed to part of the 'TFL rail' route and as such travel is permitted using an oyster card. Many of the trains that take this route are still the older style ones so it is often difficult to determine whether you are specifically on a TFL Rail train or an Abellio Greater Anglia one. Regardless, an Oyster card is still valid on that route either way.

As is also quite common, the train was quite packed for the entirety of the journey so we simply got on the first carriage at which we saw space and stood for the entire journey.

At no point whatsoever during our journey did any ticket inspectors enter any carriages, nor were any announcements made about standard or first class tickets.

Upon exiting our busy carriage at Liverpool Street Station, me, myself and one other gentlemen were targeted for some reason by two members of staff for apparently not having valid tickets to stand in first class - that's 3 of us of in what must've been a carriage of 40-50. No one else was approached or asked whatsoever and given the circumstances I would be amazed if anyone else on that route had anything other than their usual Oyster card.

Me, my girlfriend and this other chap were subsequently handed Penalty Fare Notices from Abellio Greater Anglia - mine and my girlfriend's ended up at £29 as we had travelled from Brentwood.

Is this appealable at all? I would surely assume it is given the circumstances and that at no point during the journey were there any announcements about specific tickets for First Class?

 

[bb21]

The story makes no sense as I see it.

Where did you board the train and which service was it, if you can remember?

 

[Be3G]

It makes perfect sense. On Sundays (but not, as far as I know, on any other day) Greater Anglia trains call at Brentwood, which is otherwise exclusively served by TfL Rail whose trains are standard-class-only. These GA trains are services to/from Southend, and do convey first class accommodation. It is certainly conceivable that being used to standard-class-only trains on the other days of the week, and considering the lacklusture and poorly signed quality of first class on some of GA's services (although I concede I don't know what first class is like on the Southend trains), it would be possible to board the train and not realise one is in a ‘superior’ class of accommodation. Sadly however, that doesn't mean an offence hasn't been committed.

 

[EM2]

A number of AGA services were making additional calls at Brentwood yesterday (as well as other stations), as there was no TfL Rail service between Seven Kings and Shenfield because of engineering work.

 

[najaB]

For those unsure, this has recently been changed to part of the 'TFL rail' route and as such travel is permitted using an oyster card. Many of the trains that take this route are still the older style ones so it is often difficult to determine whether you are specifically on a TFL Rail train or an Abellio Greater Anglia one. Regardless, an Oyster card is still valid on that route either way.

Looking at Realtime Trains it looks like there were no TfL Rail services running in the afternoon so it should have been pretty clear that it was an AGA service you were boarding. In my experience they have pretty clear marking on the doors to First Class so it would be pretty hard (though not impossible) to claim that you didn't know what you were doing.

 

[matt_world2004]

Wait if you got PF'd at the gateline how did the gateline staff know you had sat in 1st class.?

 

[Agent_c]

There's no difference between standing or sitting in first class chargewise... If the service has a first class service on the timetable and first class has not been declassified, then a first class ticket is required.

 

[Bixer]

The story makes no sense as I see it.

Where did you board the train and which service was it, if you can remember?

The post below yours pretty much sums it up, but yeah we boarded at Brentwood and got off at Liverpool Street.

In hindsight we discovered it was an Abellio Greater Anglia service, but it's usually just TFL Rail, which is all Standard Class.

Looking at Realtime Trains it looks like there were no TfL Rail services running in the afternoon so it should have been pretty clear that it was an AGA service you were boarding. In my experience they have pretty clear marking on the doors to First Class so it would be pretty hard (though not impossible) to claim that you didn't know what you were doing.

I certainly didn't think it was pretty clear - what would they have done differently to a normal day? As I say, trains to Brentwood go to Stratford/Liverpool Street and stop at various stations in between, just like any other day as far as we or anyone else are concerned.

Wait if you got PF'd at the gateline how did the gateline staff know you had sat in 1st class.?

Because they were stood directly outside the doors of the carriage we were on like parasites and approached me, my girlfriend and one other gentleman as we stepped off the carriage. They let at least 20 people off before us without so much as a second look, but pounced on us, I can only assume as we're 'young' looking and thus probably easier targets.

 

[Bixer]

My point was that as it's a service that is usually TFL Rail and one that I regularly get, I didn't think to look out for such announcements/notices as TFL Rail is the same set-up as standard class - basically the same as the London Underground.

 

[maniacmartin]

I can see how you can end up standing in first class without realising it in these circumstances, especially if the train was busy. Sadly, however, the offence is strict liability, and you were in first class with a standard class ticket. I don't envisage any appeal being successful.

My advice would be to pay up and chalk it up as one of life's lessons, and move on

 

[bb21]

It makes perfect sense.

I don't mean the service pattern. I mean the actions of the RPIs. Even if they were stood outside the door of the First Class section as the OP alleged, how did they know passengers did not just walk through them to alight on arrival at the destination?

If there was someone monitoring the passengers specifically on the train then that is pretty shocking behaviour considering that the service provision was dramatically different to the normal ones. They could have easily mentioned it to them and if refused to move, then get them.

It is entirely reasonable in my eyes for a passenger to assume that there is no First Class provision on the train because no train with First Class accommodation is scheduled to call at that station under normal circumstances. To Penalty Fare people in those circumstances is doing no one any favours and serves no purpose imo.

Were there announcements at Brentwood that there was First Class accommodation on the train? I don't think merely being displayed on the departure board is sufficient, as many people would not think to read them in details. (Why would they?) Were there any audio announcements made to that effect?

 

[Be3G]

Ah, yes, sorry – I thought you meant it made no sense that Greater Anglia were calling at Brentwood. I certainly agree with you about the pouncing-type tactic!

I would though highlight what I mentioned earlier which is that Greater Anglia trains do call at Brentwood every Sunday; it wasn't just a special arrangement because of a closure yesterday. (If no-one believes me, check the timetable.) Having said that, for someone who is used to travelling on perhaps weekdays only (e.g. a commuter) I can still see how it'd be a big surprise to find different trains turning up on a Sunday.

 

[Bixer]

I don't mean the service pattern. I mean the actions of the RPIs. Even if they were stood outside the door of the First Class section as the OP alleged, how did they know passengers did not just walk through them to alight on arrival at the destination?

If there was someone monitoring the passengers specifically on the train then that is pretty shocking behaviour considering that the service provision was dramatically different to the normal ones. They could have easily mentioned it to them and if refused to move, then get them.

It is entirely reasonable in my eyes for a passenger to assume that there is no First Class provision on the train because no train with First Class accommodation is scheduled to call at that station under normal circumstances. To Penalty Fare people in those circumstances is doing no one any favours and serves no purpose imo.

Were there announcements at Brentwood that there was First Class accommodation on the train? I don't think merely being displayed on the departure board is sufficient, as many people would not think to read them in details. (Why would they?) Were there any audio announcements made to that effect?

Someone with sense, thank you! This my thought process entirely. To people that are still confused, think about your daily commute to and from work, or whichever you make on a regular basis (specifically Oyster journeys in my case) - do you stop and make note of any potential changes to your train service provider, or whether or not there are First Class carriages when 99% of the time there aren't? No, you just tap in and walk onto a train as you always do.

There were no announcements or noticeboards whatsoever, the only information (as always) was read from the departures board stating '14:56 London Liv St'. I should also reiterate that there were no ticket inspectors/approachable guards on the actual train journey itself, only the two that approached us from the platform.

I should also reiterate that on my carriage of at least 40-50, 20ish passengers or so were allowed to get off undisturbed, while for some reason the 3 of us in particular were pounced upon. Given the circumstances and how busy the carriage was, I'd bet my house that 99% of passengers on our carriage were just standard Oyster Card holders too.

 

[skatering]

Verging slightly off topic but I'm curious...if it's a penalty fareable offence to stand in first class, where is the line actually drawn with this? On my SWT services, first class is often in the centre of the train, meaning it's often necessary to walk through it to find seats/access the toilets/find the guard/find the person selling overpriced instant coffee etc. Is that a byelaw offence? How long can you be in first class with a standard ticket before it becomes a problem?

 

[bb21]

Hmm, what a pile of mess. :roll:

I think in this case, given that the offence is complete (unfortunately for you, as I suspect that signage would have been there on-train) I would say pay the Penalty Fare (which needs to be done whether appealing or not in any case), appeal if you want (but I wouldn't hold your breath), and send a strongly worded letter of complaint to GA regarding this confusing arrangement and their heavy-handed approach, and the lack of audio announcement at Brentwood (if applicable, cc-ed to TfL Rail who manage the station too I would say).

The other passengers getting away with it is neither here nor there so I would say leave that out. If you do not get a satisfactory response from GA, I would say you may wish to take this further with Transport Focus (who can be good at this sort of things, useless as they may be with ticket validities, routeing, etc), and to your MP if needed be. You cannot have been the only one caught up in all this confusion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Verging slightly off topic but I'm curious...if it's a penalty fareable offence to stand in first class, where is the line actually drawn with this? On my SWT services, first class is often in the centre of the train, meaning it's often necessary to walk through it to find seats/access the toilets/find the guard/find the person selling overpriced instant coffee etc. Is that a byelaw offence? How long can you be in first class with a standard ticket before it becomes a problem?

The offence is to "remain" in the class of accommodation not paid for, so walking through non-stop would certainly not qualify. As for how long after stopping constitutes "remaining", well, how long is a piece of string?

On that note, if anyone wishes to continue this discussion please open a separate thread and let us keep this thread on topic for the OP's matter.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The offence is to "remain" in the class of accommodation not paid for, so walking through non-stop would certainly not qualify. As for how long after stopping constitutes "remaining", well, how long is a piece of string?

Something doesn't quite add up for me.

RealTimeTrains indicates that the train was likely operated by a 321 (yes, I know it's timing load not actual train, but...) which has first class at one end of the train. IIRC the vestibules on the 321s are not considered to be in first class; they weren't on the London Midland versions (one of which can now be found in Romford as a standard class only train...)

I don't see how the RPI could have seen the offence from the platform, which leads me on to one of two possible outcomes: they didn't see the offence, and were hoping for the best, or they were on the train and the OP wasn't simply standing in the compartment.

Given some of the RPIs at Liverpool Street, I wouldn't wish to guess which one is more likely.

 

[100andthirty]

I don't know which type of train it was but what follows assumes it was a train with sliding doors. I can understand how you might have been targeted if you had been in the the seating area, but not if you had been in the doorway. I think it would be interesting to see how a magistrate might react if you were targeted for standing in the doorway between two first class sections and how Abellie GA might present how this provides a greater amenity than the doorway between first and standard. However, you might not want the stress or risk of taking it that far. Indeed if you were able to take photographs of the train you got on (first and standard doorways) and a doorway in a TfL Rail train "the Man on the Clapham Omnibus" might reasonably wonder why Abellio GA are making such a fuss.

 

[bb21]

True. Does anything other than 321s (whose vestibules are indeed not classed as First AFAIK) still operate on the Southend Vic line now that they lost their 315s?

However standing in the First Class section at the end of the carriage is still an offence, and there is a small possibility that they were so targeted because they were reported by an undercover member of staff on the train. I can only go by the OP's words so perhaps the OP can clarify exactly where they stood on the train? Was it in the vestibules (door area) or was it further inside beyond the internal doors to the small section at the end of the carriage, or more towards the centre of the carriage?

What also complicates the matter is that there are two different layouts of GA 321 First Class iirc, one with just the small end beyond the last set of doors, the other with about half a coach including both sides of the last set of doors. Not easy to tell if the OP cannot supply unit numbers.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

I don't know the layout of such trains. But surely you could have been in standard and just walked through to first class to alight nearer the front of the train. Or are you telling us that it is illegal for standard class holders to alight through first class doors (and similar if boarding at last minute)?
If I were the poster I would probably pay with a strong protest letter, but also contact local media and make a stink about how pathetic it all is!

 

[bb21]

I don't know the layout of such trains. But surely you could have been in standard and just walked through to first class to alight nearer the front of the train. Or are you telling us that it is illegal for standard class holders to alight through first class doors (and similar if boarding at last minute)?
If I were the poster I would probably pay with a strong protest letter, but also contact local media and make a stink about how pathetic it all is!

I did make that point earlier, but by the looks of it, the OP did not just walk through to that particular set of doors at the end of the journey. If that were indeed the case, then I would equally be advocating fighting it.

 

[Bixer]

True. Does anything other than 321s (whose vestibules are indeed not classed as First AFAIK) still operate on the Southend Vic line now that they lost their 315s?

However standing in the First Class section at the end of the carriage is still an offence, and there is a small possibility that they were so targeted because they were reported by an undercover member of staff on the train. I can only go by the OP's words so perhaps the OP can clarify exactly where they stood on the train? Was it in the vestibules (door are) or was it further inside beyond the doors to the small section at the end of the carriage, or more towards the centre of the carriage?

What also complicates the matter is that there are two different layouts of GA 321 First Class iirc, one with just the small end beyond the last set of doors, the other with about half a coach including both sides of the last set of doors. Not easy to tell if the OP cannot supply unit numbers.

We were stood just by the doors where most people stand - I'm not sure of the appropriate name for it - but just right immediately in front of the sliding doors on opposite sides of the trains. Come to think of it, are a lot of First Class sections not just only part of a carriage and not the entire carriage? So there's a chance we weren't even standing in First Class anyway?

I don't know the layout of such trains. But surely you could have been in standard and just walked through to first class to alight nearer the front of the train. Or are you telling us that it is illegal for standard class holders to alight through first class doors (and similar if boarding at last minute)?
If I were the poster I would probably pay with a strong protest letter, but also contact local media and make a stink about how pathetic it all is!

This is similarly a valid point. Considering the inspectors weren't on the train whatsoever and only approached the train from the platform, they'll have had no idea that this isn't exactly what we did. I should point out that this wasn't the case, but I can't think of any way they would've known. The point about an undercover officer on the carriage somewhere is also worth considering, but that also begs the question of why we were targeted and pointed out among the dozens of other passengers in our position. It also begs the question, is that not disgustingly underhanded if that's the case? Placing an officer on a train, by no means to help anyone or provide accurate information, purely to squeeze as many penalty fares out of the misinformed as they can.

 

[Tetchytyke]

True. Does anything other than 321s (whose vestibules are indeed not classed as First AFAIK) still operate on the Southend Vic line now that they lost their 315s?

I think the 360s end up there sometimes, but the same deal applies on those too, although the compartments are very small and have power doors into them; you'd know if you were in first class on those.

If the OP was in the vestibule (i.e. next to the external doors, not further into the carriage past the internal sliding doors) then the OP wasn't in first class and that would be the basis of the appeal. Though I would advise the OP to tread carefully if, in hindsight, they had moved further into the train and they were in first class; lying in an appeal could cost more than £29 each.

 

[bb21]

Interesting. It sounds like one of those with half a carriage designated First Class seeing that there were internal doors on both sides (321/4s?). Is anyone able to confirm in definitive terms that the vestibule area in that doorway is not classed as First Class? (I am not 100% sure so could do with confirmation.)

If it were a 321/3 or a 360 then no offence would have been committed as the vestibules on those trains are not classed as First Class, but by the sound if it the OP was on a 321/4.

 

[iphone76]

On the AGA 321s, (even those from LM) the first class area is only immediately behind the driver and not anywhere else in the carriage. There is a sliding door to enter the compartment from the vestibule and it is perfectly fine to stand outside in the vestibule area by the external sliding doors. When I used to use them everyday, the inspectors started to look at trains arriving at Liverpool Street and checked people's tickets if they saw they had exited the compartment.

There would be no need to walk through the 1st class section to exit the train as the only door leads to the driver's cab.

If you were standing in that area, and not in the section with the seats, I would definitely try and appeal. Good luck.

 

[Bixer]

Many thanks for all the helpful responses guys! I really appreciate it.

I'm relatively sure me and my partner (and the third gentleman if I'm perfectly honest) must've been misidentified somehow if the usual standing section by the main carriage doors is not First Class.

I'll follow the appropriate appeal routes...fingers crossed...

 

[bb21]

Yeah taking into account what iphone76 said, I think it is reasonable to reach the conclusion that you were not standing in First Class accommodation.

Remember though that the way it works is that you still need to pay it first, even if you want to appeal. Unfortunately that is just the way it works otherwise you could find yourself in a lot of arguments with them over added admin fees etc.

Good luck.

 

[najaB]

I certainly didn't think it was pretty clear - what would they have done differently to a normal day? As I say, trains to Brentwood go to Stratford/Liverpool Street and stop at various stations in between, just like any other day as far as we or anyone else are concerned.

The trains would be a different colour, would look significantly different on the inside, would have left from a different platform (1 instead of 3 which means going down a different set of stairs), would have stopped at far fewer stations than normal and you would have had to walk past about a dozen signs saying that there were no TfL rail services and to use the rail replacement buses.

None of which is a reason to get Penalty Fared, but it does somewhat weaken your 'I didn't realise anything was different' argument.

 

[MP33]

I very rarely use Greater Anglia on a Sunday and when I do so 1st class is a free for all. I raised this once with inspectors at Liverpool Street when they were checking 1st class tickets before departure. They advised that they did not have the resources to do so. It looks that they are doing so now.

What does not help is there are passengers who use the TFL stations who believe that they have an entitlement to use 1st class without the correct ticket. They also appear on a week day, where they think they have an entitlement to upgrade themselves from Liverpool Street to Stratford. Which is not permitted in any class as Stratford is pick up only.

As a 1st class passenger is hardly seen on a Sunday or Public Holiday, it should be declassified or alternatively the start of the journey run as a shuttle service.

Incidentally this evening there was a check. Everyone passed.

 

[gray1404]

This sounds very unfair to me. Clearly some members of staff on the platform saw you 3 in first class and wanted to check that you had first class tickets. However, given they would only have seen you in there from the moment that the train was pulling into the platform then how are they to know that you were not simply passing though first class - if it was in the middle of a carriage. This would be more likely to take longer if there were passengers stood by the door. I've had a look at BRtimes and I do see those services as being adversited as convaying first class for Sunday gone, which is a shame.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Something doesn't quite add up for me.



RealTimeTrains indicates that the train was likely operated by a 321 (yes, I know it's timing load not actual train, but...) which has first class at one end of the train. IIRC the vestibules on the 321s are not considered to be in first class; they weren't on the London Midland versions

Are you sure? I am near certain that they were. Certainly as the vestibule was in the middle of the two First Class sections there was little to justify being there as a Standard passenger.

Though given LM's tendency to declassify, if it was busy enough to want to stand there they probably didn't care. (LM's revenue protection on the south WCML has long been very light-touch).