Person climbs OHLE Warrington

[dysonsphere]

having being bought up on southern Region I understood the danger of third rail by about 7 years old

 

[DarloRich]

having being bought up on southern Region I understood the danger of third rail by about 7 years old

because, i am sure, someone from British Rail came to your school and told you about the danger. They certainly came to mine. You (and others) are assuming that still happens in any coordinated manner. It doesn't.

 

[headshot119]

because, i am sure, someone from British Rail came to your school and told you about the danger. They certainly came to mine. You (and others) are assuming that still happens in any coordinated manner. It doesn't.

It does where I live, though the nearest OHLE is about 15 miles away, and the nearest 3rd rail about 10.

 

[chris89]

because, i am sure, someone from British Rail came to your school and told you about the danger. They certainly came to mine. You (and others) are assuming that still happens in any coordinated manner. It doesn't.

Bit of ashame that it doesn't.

Back in Year 7/8 for me (2000/2001) Had those rail safety video's and officers from BTP come to the school for assembles and for form time etc. Many of the things gone over included 3rd Rail and OHL and was no way near that stuff (Castle Cary)

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I take 50Hz as 50 cycles per second...what am I missing?

A cycle is the complete phase from 0 to + back to 0 then - and back to 0, so 50 cycles would indeed be 100 peaks. In this case the voltage hits +/-25kv 100 times in 50 cycles, or hz.

I dont think the voltage is 25k rms, more a peak voltage. Engineers i have spoken to have advised me the voltage tends to hold itself steady around 22-23kv once traction demands in the area are taken into account. What people dont take into consideration is its not necessarily the voltage thats the killer. Its the current, or amps. 100amps at 750v (75000watts) is just as much a killer than 25kv at 3 amps (also 75000 watts) Having said that it is in electricitys nature to find itself a route to ground and will take the shortest route available. the maximum current the supply is capable of handling will take that route if it is easier to get to ground than whatever electrical equipment is drawing from that supply. You will find the amount of current available in the wire is significantly more than what the train will draw to take into account peak demands etc.

 

[hassaanhc]

So much trespass madness going on at the moment - much of which does not make the NRS websites.....

Must be something in the weather ...

I actually witnessed a trespass on Tuesday . It was on the DLR at Gallions Reach while walking to the station, two kids (out of a group of four, age about 11-14) went down the end ramp of one platform, across the track, and back up the other. Turned out the PSA of the previous train to Beckton had seen them right on the edge and had told the control room, so was inspecting the line on the way back until Cyprus. I informed him about what I'd seen and he took my details in case the BTP wanted to contact me (although they haven't done so yet).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's easy to make reference to the "Darwin Awards" when things like this happen. But at the end of the day, a young person with their life ahead of them has suffered serious injury at the very least. Much like the recent incident at Wrenthorpe sidings, there's only so much comfort to be gained from the "I would've known better" sentiments.

Best post . This forum loves knee-jerk reactions when someone does anything bad on/to the railway :roll:.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Best post . This forum loves knee-jerk reactions when someone does anything bad on/to the railway :roll:.

That remark stating "knee-jerk" is rather insulting to those of us who have very many years of experience to bring to bear onto such a debate as this, where events going back to the 1950's can be used in drawing similarities to the events in 2015

Or would you prefer that we sat back and said nothing at all on the matter in question....:roll:

 

[the sniper]

So much trespass madness going on at the moment - much of which does not make the NRS websites.....

Must be something in the weather ...

Funnily enough, I've experienced more stone throwing incidents in the last week than I have in the last three years.

 

[yorksrob]

because, i am sure, someone from British Rail came to your school and told you about the danger. They certainly came to mine. You (and others) are assuming that still happens in any coordinated manner. It doesn't.

Absolutely. On many threads such as this, I've been trying to ascertain whether this still happens.

Many of the railways dangers are hidden and it's unreasonable to expect youngsters to automatically know that cables are exposed and the dangers of points etc without anyone explaining it to them.

Tell someone not to do something, and they'll probably go ahead and do it anyway. Explain why and how something might be dangerous and you've got more chance of them not doing it.

 

[jimm]

Absolutely. On many threads such as this, I've been trying to ascertain whether this still happens.

Many of the railways dangers are hidden and it's unreasonable to expect youngsters to automatically know that cables are exposed and the dangers of points etc without anyone explaining it to them.

Tell someone not to do something, and they'll probably go ahead and do it anyway. Explain why and how something might be dangerous and you've got more chance of them not doing it.

Chiltern Railways, for one, certainly carry out school visits. Their driver Dave Newell was made an MBE a few years ago for his part in this work.

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2011/...ys-driver-gets-well-deserved-mbe-recognition/

 

[DaleCooper]

A cycle is the complete phase from 0 to + back to 0 then - and back to 0, so 50 cycles would indeed be 100 peaks. In this case the voltage hits +/-25kv 100 times in 50 cycles, or hz

In fact the voltage passes through 25kV four times in a cycle (see explanation of peak and RMS below)

Cycles are not the same as Hertz (Hz) which is the unit of frequency (cycles per second)

I dont think the voltage is 25k rms, more a peak voltage. Engineers i have spoken to have advised me the voltage tends to hold itself steady around 22-23kv

You misunderstand the meaning of RMS and peak in this context. The peak of a sine wave is 1.4142 x the RMS value therefore 22kV RMS has a peak value of 31kV. The difference between the nominal 25kV and the actual "on load" voltage is not really important to this discussion.

 

[najaB]

...therefore 22kV RMS has a peak value of 311kV...

31kV, surely?

 

[DaleCooper]

31kV, surely?

Yes I just realised that typo myself and will edit it.

 

[Saint66]

In primary school about 10 to 11 years ago, we weren't visited by anyone, but were taken a centre in MK which took you through multiple dangerous location scenarios, and what you shouldn't do, for example, railway's, and the OHLE and third rail.

So, I think it depends on the school.

 

[DaleCooper]

When I was at primary school I climbed the fence into an electricity substation and got the cane for it.

Yes, it was a long time ago.

 

[najaB]

When I was at primary school I climbed the fence into an electricity substation and got the cane for it.

Bet you never even thought of doing again though. I know it's a can of worms, but there is something to be said for corporal punishment, correctly (and sparingly) applied.

 

[Aldaniti]

Nobody came to our school.... Even when I was at primary school I had a funny suspicion that touching an overhead wire might not have a positive outcome. It was the same with crossing a busy motorway, jumping into the sea, off the top of Blackpool Tower or putting my hand into a roaring fire....

 

[najaB]

Nobody came to our school.... Even when I was at primary school I had a funny suspicion that touching an overhead wire might not have a positive outcome. It was the same with crossing a busy motorway, jumping into the sea, off the top of Blackpool Tower or putting my hand into a roaring fire....

I agree there's an element of common sense to it, but you'd be surprised at the number of people who think that the OHLE is only live when a train is passing.

 

[Aldaniti]

I agree there's an element of common sense to it, but you'd be surprised at the number of people who think that the OHLE is only live when a train is passing.

Oh, I can well believe it!

 

[TDK]

This isn't a new thing, my Dad who is now 85 years old used to put conkers on the live rail and see if he could do it without getting a tingle in his hands, he was 15 at the time. It doesn't matter how much you drum in to people be it youths or adults (look at the level crossing incidents) there are always going to be people who break the law because this is what this 14 year old has done and most 14 year olds do know when they are doing wrong. Most of it in my experience is " showing off" in front of their mates.

This is a real sad affair and this poor kid and I believe he is still alive will suffer most likely for the rest of his life. There is no one to blame except the person who has been injured and the people with him, it's not the railway, it's most likely not the parents and it's not railway companies not distributing information on the dangers.

I just feel for his family and friends especially the people who were there if any and the poor people who had to clear up the mess.

It is easy to stereotype people but this can happen to anyone no matter what their background is, on the Southern we used to get more vandalism and trespass in the green belt millionaire rich areas than anywhere else.

Thoughts go out to all involved.

 

[alxndr]

There is no one to blame except the person who has been injured and the people with him, it's not the railway, it's most likely not the parents and it's not railway companies not distributing information on the dangers.

I'm not sure, I think a portion of the blame does need to go to those who have failed to educate. People can't be expected to automatically know the risks if they're not informed, and somewhere down the line the information needs to be given out. Once someone's been told then they can choose to ignore it or not, but if that's not happened then it's unfair to expect them to take the entire blame (obviously we don't know what was happening in the minds of the people unfortunately involved in this particular incident).

Personally I don't think it should be the job of the state, but parents can't be relied upon to impart the information to their kids, so it has to be. Not all parents even know of the dangers themselves, and it's not like touching a hot stove, you can't learn by experience, and nor is the danger clearly apparent. OHLE isn't littered with "danger of death" signs like electricity pylons, and third rail looks scarily innocent.

As for whether I was actually taught in school (2000-2013), if I was then it wasn't something that ever stuck in my mind. Someone must have mentioned the dangers to me though as I do remember being scared of the running rails and thinking they were electrified and would kill me, but not scared enough not to test it.

 

[MCR247]

That remark stating "knee-jerk" is rather insulting to those of us who have very many years of experience to bring to bear onto such a debate as this, where events going back to the 1950's can be used in drawing similarities to the events in 2015

Or would you prefer that we sat back and said nothing at all on the matter in question....:roll:

I just find it interesting that on the 375 derailment thread (where there were no serious injuries AFAIK) people were saying that puns were inappropriate as it could've resulted in a serious incident yet in this thread about a seriously injured 14 we're 4 pages in and no-one seems to be too sympathetic. We don't even know the full details yet and I can't help feel that if this thread was about anyone else, or even a member of train crew, this thread would be very different...

 

[SPADTrap]

I just find it interesting that on the 375 derailment thread (where there were no serious injuries AFAIK) people were saying that puns were inappropriate as it could've resulted in a serious incident yet in this thread about a seriously injured 14 we're 4 pages in and no-one seems to be too sympathetic. We don't even know the full details yet and I can't help feel that if this thread was about anyone else, or even a member of train crew, this thread would be very different...

I'm not sure they're comparable events.

 

[dakta]

Some people are just thick. Going back in time, one of my first jobs on leaving school was shadowing a guy who maintained properties, one of the jobs was to clear the guttering on industrial units, one area we had to cover were two fairly tall units with a carpark between with pylons running over the carpark inbetween. To get to the roof we were using one of those towers you can assembly with scaffolding that you can push along.

Anyway, the lad I was working with decided he couldn't be bothered disassembling it between buildings and wanted to push it to the other building. It wasn't as high as the lines but bloody close - we had a heated row about it, his logic was it wasnt quite as high as the lines, my logic being 200-400kV will jump if offered a low enough resistance path to ground. I wasn't sure how far but I wasn't happy.

Argument got quite heated and ended with a call to my boss which promptly terminated his hopes for an early shift finish.

Whether I cost him that early shift finish, or saved him from it, I will never know!

 

[Johnuk123]

When I went to school the classroom was almost within touching distance of the Walsall to Wednesbury line.

We never had the slightest talk about the railways whatsoever, just "eyes front" or similar whenever a train went past.

 

[furnessvale]

When I went to school the classroom was almost within touching distance of the Walsall to Wednesbury line.

We never had the slightest talk about the railways whatsoever, just "eyes front" or similar whenever a train went past.

My classroom overlooked the Preston Dock Branch.

The sight of a Super D coming up the steep branch with a raft of banana vans meant "eyes front" was a physical impossibility!

 

[najaB]

It wasn't as high as the lines but bloody close - we had a heated row about it, his logic was it wasnt quite as high as the lines, my logic being 200-400kV will jump if offered a low enough resistance path to ground. I wasn't sure how far but I wasn't happy.

I seem to remember a handy rule of thumb that it's 1 inch per kV safe working distance. So at 20OkV you would get quite a spark.

 

[furnessvale]

I seem to remember a handy rule of thumb that it's I inch per kV. So at 20OkV you would get quite a spark.

I believe the figure for perfect conditions is 1cm per 10kv but anything less than perfect increases things considerably.

During tests with a 9F loco on the Crewe avoiding lines when 25kv was first introduced there, the wire was lowered to about a 2" gap before flashover occurred.

 

[dakta]

In all fairness I always wondered if I was just being 'soft' (as i'm sure was thought of me at the time).

Problem is, you can't really compare heights of things easily from the ground, so what might look like a good few meters from the floor can be considerably different. Guessing how far the electricity will jump just seems daft.

I always live by the rule, if in doubt there ain't any doubt. We take enough risks day to day without dancing with the HV :P

 

[HilversumNS]

Children become legally responsible for crimes at the age of 10. IE to know what is right and what is wrong.

By that age, I'd also expect them to know that overhead lines carry electricity, and to know that electricity can be dangerous.

So without even knowing what the current etc is, there should be some sort of mental thought along the lines of "Touching those cables can be dangerous" and without knowing that they are safe, the default thinking should be "Better not touch them, as I don't know that it is safe"

Of course this particular case may have involved other factors, such as drugs or alcohol or some other personal issue.