In Germany, which has long used plain clothes inspectors (in fact they seem the majority) they do seem notably professional, suddenly producing their ID after the doors close and then asking politely for tickets. Even for those found to be without, who receive penalty charges, they are firm but completely unfazed throughout. A different approach.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Plain-clothes revenue protection bods - is this still happening?
- Thread starter facebender
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
pitdiver
Member
When I worked at the LT Museum I naturally had a staff pass. I would often get out at Leicester Square. It would me great pleasure to see the RPI who was on gateline duty rush over when the gate rejected my ticket as it been set to do so when any tickets needed ID or railcard. As i wasn't in uniform he/she would treat me very carefully when I showed my staff ID card they didn't know who I was.
No, the same approach many UK RPIs take (albeit they tend to be uniformed).
Why on earth would that give you “great pleasure”?
Last edited:
RPI
Established Member
- Joined
- 6 Dec 2010
- Messages
- 2,977
We do plain clothes operations sometimes, usually at gatelines where we have problems with double shufflers or jumpers.
Has he? I was checked in the same revenue block (off-peak when they were seemingly inspecting everyone coming through the gates) and all I saw was an ID card and a medallion (flashed at me without time to properly inspect them), and an RPI introducing themselves as "TfL Revenue Protection." They did not once use the word "ticket."
Of course, I had the cultural context to know the expectation was to show my ticket and photocard. For someone with limited English who doesn't understand how the system works, the RPI might as well have presented a rubber duck, or a cheese sandwich. If the medallion had maybe been accompanied by some text saying "please show me your ticket" - or if the default thing to ask people was "tickets, please" rather than industry jargon about revenue protection, that might have been more universally understandable and made the situation clearer for everyone.
That's happened to me pleanty of times in other countries where I didn't understand what they wanted, but knew the badge must mean something. I usually just look dumb (little effort required) and they either take my ticket out my hand, or explain more. I don't ignore them and walk around them. It's pretty obvious they want something, and experience had told me now it's usually tickets.
How do you know he didn’t also say tickets please to the people who apparently ran away? Everyone who has ever used public transport anywhere at all will be “culturally aware” that tickets aren’t optional and will know why they’re being stopped.
This is just the usual spurious criticism of revenue enforcement.
Same here.
Last edited:
High Dyke
Established Member
I fail to see why some people have an issue with having a ticket or pass checked; unless they're hiding something? I accept there are some revenue protection staff that could benefit from customer service training, but is it necessary to vent anger at someone who is just doing their job?
Yeh it's always puzzled me. If you pay your way then I'd be annoyed if someone else isn't? I don't mind being held up for a minute, and don't find it unreasonable.
Had a ticket check on a London bus last week, supported by police. Plain clothes boarded at one stop and then started checking, police were positioned at the next stop. They didn't get to me by the time the bus arrived at the next stop, and for some reason nobody was covering the back door (it was a Boris routemaster). I was getting off to change buses anyway - so I did and then turned back and asked if they wanted to check my ticket.
(I assume the RPIs then crossed the road and took another bus back to the previous stop, there may have been police on the opposite side too.)
A funny incident on the Croydon tram - two scrotes boarded and started loudly boasting to each other about how they never pay for the tram, next stop RPIs boarded. But luckily for them, someone standing by the door hadn't paid either and he tried to slip past the RPIs unsuccessfully. While the RPIs were occupied with blocking that fare evader's exit, the scrotes did manage to slip past, tapped their bank cards on the readers and got back on... but the RPIs got off to process the caught passenger and didn't check anyone else!
(I assume the RPIs then crossed the road and took another bus back to the previous stop, there may have been police on the opposite side too.)
A funny incident on the Croydon tram - two scrotes boarded and started loudly boasting to each other about how they never pay for the tram, next stop RPIs boarded. But luckily for them, someone standing by the door hadn't paid either and he tried to slip past the RPIs unsuccessfully. While the RPIs were occupied with blocking that fare evader's exit, the scrotes did manage to slip past, tapped their bank cards on the readers and got back on... but the RPIs got off to process the caught passenger and didn't check anyone else!
What if you live in Luxembourg where train tickets are in fact optional?
Yes, the famous Luxembourg goldfish bowl, where no one ever leaves their tiny country to have any experience of the greater world, until the one day they choose to strike out and run into an evil revenue protection inspector at a railway station presenting the dubious foreign concept of a train ticket
Thats relatively new though isnt it ? And they would probably need a ticket of some sort to get to here
philthetube
Established Member
- Joined
- 5 Jan 2016
- Messages
- 3,993
You could have been retired staff, off duty staff, a disabled pass holder, and possibly a pensioner, depending on your age I don't think revenue would be getting too exited about you, I suspect that well over 99% of checks result in the passenger continuing on their way, I am retired underground staff, and there is only one member of revenue staff who I know, and that is because we met outside work.
To be fair this is the view of the overwhelming majority of railway users, in my experience! There is an element of Stockholm syndrome on here due to the disputes and prosecutions forum, or perhaps because some members tend to use “creative” routes/easements which mean they have more occasion to deal with revenue than most travellers.
This is impressive RailUK Forums pedantry! To be even more pedantic, first class tickets in Luxembourg still need to be purchased (and presumably inspected). It appears that cross border SNCF services into and out of the country also require tickets.
I’d suggest a train ticket isn’t going to be an alien concept to a hypothetical Luxembourgish traveller.
Yes, the famous Luxembourg goldfish bowl, where no one ever leaves their tiny country to have any experience of the greater world, until the one day they choose to strike out and run into an evil revenue protection inspector at a railway station presenting the dubious foreign concept of a train ticket
I wonder if they have little scallies who stink of weed and hide in the toilets to try to bunk first class fares in Luxembourg.
matt_world2004
Established Member
- Joined
- 5 Nov 2014
- Messages
- 4,578
Yes every single person that the revenue checks at the gateline is going to be either staff or freedom pass or police ,
I find revenue perfectly polite now I have a staff pass . When I had a contractor oyster it was a different matter however . With a constant interrogation about where I was going and why
One even claimed it was illegal to stop at a McDonald's on the way home from work
Although it is, in general, a very small element of the population who are this dishonest. Which becomes a self-defeating circle as RPIs encounter them all the time, and can project that assumption on to anybody stopped without the correct ticket, whereas the population at large generally doesn't realise this element exists and so gets upset at what they perceive to be heavy-handed treatment by the RPI.
The police service does extensive training of their officers in the fact that, although many who come to their attention are criminals, the vast majority of the population are not, and in fact initially feel a little concern if they have to speak with them and are a bit unnerved by the process.
It didn't seem to be the case in former days with Travelling Ticket Collectors on trains, who were accepted as just part of the process. Notably they were never accused of being on commission for any charges issued (the one on the onetime Liverpool to Taunton through train each trip between Shrewsbury and Hereford used to issue lots of first class upgrade charges when the train was overcrowded), whereas nowadays those RPIs who pick up complex ticket inconsistencies are frequently so accused.
In Luxembourg you could always buy a ticket on the train anyway (though I'm not sure about the TGV with first stop Thionville), there was a €1 surcharge for buying on board but I believe there wasn't any revenue protection in the sense used in this thread.
Dr_Paul
Established Member
- Joined
- 3 Sep 2013
- Messages
- 1,472
I had this at a local supermarket. I didn't go through the line of tills but around the end of it as I had picked up just a prescription from the in-store chemist, and was not buying anything. An unmarked bloke stopped me at the entrance and asked what I had in my bag. I refused to do so and asked him to identify himself, saying something like, 'Who are you?' He then pulled out his security officer's badge from within his coat. I then cooperated with him and showed him the contents of my bag and explained why I had not been to a till. I also asked him to explain why he was not displaying his badge, as without its being visible he could have been just anyone; he said that he was incognito so that thieves wouldn't recognise him as a security officer. What he should have done was to reveal his badge as he approached me, then I would have cooperated immediately.
He should have, but in the end you provided a reasonable challenge, and upon seeing his badge you then cooperated, so only a matter of seconds was really wasted. A bigger problem would have been if he'd insisted you open the bag before providing any identification, or if his lack of ID had led to a more forceful challenge or (attempted) complete blowpast.
The difference there is that, unlike on the railway where you are legally obliged to show your ticket on demand, you’re under no obligation to show the contents of your bag to anyone - security guard or not! They also have no power to detain you on suspicion of committing a minor offence such as shoplifting, so you would be quite within your rights to refuse to cooperate and simply walk away.
Edsmith
Member
What often happens is there is a plain clothes person looking like an ordinary shopper walking round with a basket or trolley and if they see anything untoward they alert the uniformed security guard on the door to take action. I'm slightly puzzled as to why he challenged you just because you walked past the tills and as a previous poster said you are not obligated to let them look in your bag anyway. They should only stop you if they see you conceal something.
This is incorrect. Security guards can detain someone they reasonably suspect of committing an indictable offence (and theft, as an either-way offence, is included), and do so on a daily basis, see section 24A of the Police & Criminal Evidence Act.
Whether the guard whom Dr_Paul dealt with had reasonable grounds to suspect that is a separate matter.
1D54
Member
- Joined
- 1 Jun 2019
- Messages
- 1,056
He'd be simply read his rights
I was thinking of low value shop lifting which is summary only for most purposes, but I see it’s specifically treated as an indictable offence for the purposes of PACE, so I take the point.
Whatever their grounds for suspicion, I’d be very surprised if security guards are generally encouraged/permitted by their employers to detain and search members of the public these days - you can just imagine the cans of worms that would open up, potential allegations of assault etc.
Certainly the approach taken on the railway is that revenue staff are generally instructed to walk away if people become obstructive/aggressive.
- Status