Planned 387 and 377 cascades to Southern and Southeastern in 2025

[Sun Chariot]

Thanks @bramling I really think train interior design should first undergo a "common blimmin' sense..." check from this forum's members.
I recall Siemens class 450 initially had first class toward the middle of one trailer car. Very same effect - people walking through first, to use the toilet. The refits at least put the first class accommodation to the outer end of each DMC.

 

[43096]

Thanks @bramling I really think train interior design should first undergo a "common blimmin' sense..." check from this forum's members.
I recall Alsthom class 450 initially had first class toward the middle of one trailer car. Very same effect - people walking through first, to use the toilet. The refits at least put the first class accommodation to the outer end of each DMC.

I think you means Siemens Class 450!

 

[Sun Chariot]

I think you means Siemens Class 450!

Ah yes! Darn. Thanks.
If Iooked hard enough, I'd have seen the builder's plate on 'em. They pass by me daily.

 

[Class15]

Speculative discussion! Time to get the crayons out:

-South Eastern standardise metro fleet with new stock, replacing 465s, 466s, 376s and 707s.

-376s to Southern to bolster capacity
-707s fitted with pantographs and go to Great Northern

 

[Sun Chariot]

-376s to Southern to bolster capacity

I really need to read more carefully...
I thought you'd written "to lobster capacity"
and I had a mental image of very sunburned people squashed in like sardines, but redder.

 

[Wolfie]

Thanks @bramling I really think train interior design should first undergo a "common blimmin' sense..." check from this forum's members.
I recall Siemens class 450 initially had first class toward the middle of one trailer car. Very same effect - people walking through first, to use the toilet. The refits at least put the first class accommodation to the outer end of each DMC.

The 350s, all except the /2s which are going off lease, still have 1st class in the middle.

 

[SolomonSouth]

Since the May timetable change is seeing some Networkers off mainline services, I assume at least a few more 377s will be arriving to cover for these? If not it seems odd to say that, given the fact that I'm not sure SE have many spare 375s as of right now. (Plus Electrostar reliability seems to be dropping off a cliff and short forms are common now but that's a whole other discussion).

Since we know SE lack stabling space, a few Networkers will probably (almost certainly) go in the May timetable change.

As for which 465s will go, I reckon that 465908 is at the top of the list to go, given how many failures it has had over the last month. After that, probably 465178, 005, 160, 188 and 184, plus 466008 (which is coupled to 465188) all of which have been idling for a long while - 178 and 005 since last year late November-ish in the Victoria wall siding, and 160, 188, 184 and 466008 since February in Slade Green.

Perhaps 465914 after that - I don't think that unit has moved since late January but if I'm wrong please correct me.

Not sure after that with specific numbers but my thinking is - it ought to be the 11 weakest 465s going regardless of sub-class (377s leasing company is different to both BREL and Met-Cam 465s), and potentially some poor 466s too. I could be wrong though.

 

[Class15]

As for which 465s will go, I reckon that 465908 is at the top of the list to go

That would be ‘interesting’!

 

[SolomonSouth]

That would be ‘interesting’!

I can't see them keeping it. It has failed far more than any other 465, BREL or Met-Cam. Sledgehammering it to pieces for spares and scrapping it seems like the obvious decision if SE value a reliable railway.

908 is an obvious weak link among the 465s that could and should be cut loose.

 

[Class15]

I can't see them keeping it. It has failed far more than any other 465, BREL or Met-Cam. Sledgehammering it to pieces for spares and scrapping it seems like the obvious decision if SE value a reliable railway.

908 is an obvious weak link among the 465s that could and should be cut loose.

You are aware of the paint job aren’t you?

 

[SolomonSouth]

I indeed am aware of the paint job. But I think a reliable railway service is far more important to average commuters (99% of the people who use Southeastern). Certainly it's more important to me to have my train turn up fault-free than it is for my train to have a special paint job.

The 465 is an ugly design anyway so you could only do so much with it. Awkwardly bulky, and the bumpers look like buck teeth.

The 707 is far better looking visually but wasn't around in the NSE days.

This is getting off topic anyway so let me bring it back. SE is run by people with common sense. It is not run by enthusiasts. People with common sense want a reliable service and rolling stock. 908 is the most unreliable 465 by far right now. So it should go.

I can't see how they can justify keeping it.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I indeed am aware of the paint job. But I think a reliable railway service is far more important to average commuters (99% of the people who use Southeastern). Certainly it's more important to me to have my train turn up fault-free than it is for my train to have a special paint job.

The 465 is an ugly design anyway so you could only do so much with it. Awkwardly bulky, and the bumpers look like buck teeth.

The 707 is far better looking visually but wasn't around in the NSE days.

This is getting off topic anyway so let me bring it back. SE is run by people with common sense. It is not run by enthusiasts. People with common sense want a reliable service and rolling stock. 908 is the most unreliable 465 by far right now. So it should go.

I can't see how they can justify keeping it.

Well said.

 

[Class15]

I indeed am aware of the paint job. But I think a reliable railway service is far more important to average commuters (99% of the people who use Southeastern). Certainly it's more important to me to have my train turn up fault-free than it is for my train to have a special paint job.

The 465 is an ugly design anyway so you could only do so much with it. Awkwardly bulky, and the bumpers look like buck teeth.

The 707 is far better looking visually but wasn't around in the NSE days.

This is getting off topic anyway so let me bring it back. SE is run by people with common sense. It is not run by enthusiasts. People with common sense want a reliable service and rolling stock. 908 is the most unreliable 465 by far right now. So it should go.

I can't see how they can justify keeping it.

The 465s aren’t ‘ugly’ by definition - that’s your opinion and I personally like them. However I agree with you regarding 908, but we’ll see if Chris Green sees it the same way

 

[SolomonSouth]

908 seemed to have a huge decline after Doncaster. Before Doncaster, it seemed fine. Not sure what happened to it up there, but something definitely seemed to go wrong.

Am I correct in saying that the other 377s coming over are in the low 1xx range? Or are 163 and 164 coming back?

 

[bramling]

Speculative discussion! Time to get the crayons out:

-South Eastern standardise metro fleet with new stock, replacing 465s, 466s, 376s and 707s.

-376s to Southern to bolster capacity
-707s fitted with pantographs and go to Great Northern

The first part is okay, but what would GN do with the 707s?

 

[SolomonSouth]

The first part is okay, but what would GN do with the 707s?

I was thinking the same thing - I don't think GN have any use for the 707s. Besides, they are doing fine on SE as is - in fact, SE supposedly invested in toilets, so 707s will almost certainly stay with SE.

(Never mind the fact that overhead conversion may not even be possible in a 707, we don't know the facts here).

The 379 and 387 should be more than enough capacity together. 30X 379, and I'm assuming around 10-15X 387, should be sufficient.

It's around the same capacity as 41X 365s in theory (which was enough by itself), but far more in practise, due to the 365s' awful reliability. There is a reason Networkers were called "Notworkers," and it wasn't because they were well-built, good trains.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think a DC version of the 385s would work very nicely, with 4 and 6 carriage variants.

 

[Class15]

I think a DC version of the 385s would work very nicely, with 4 and 6 carriage variants.

That’s actually not a bad idea.

 

[JonathanH]

Am I correct in saying that the other 377s coming over are in the low 1xx range?

Yes, there was a posting which confirmed 377121-377133.

 

[brad465]

908 seemed to have a huge decline after Doncaster. Before Doncaster, it seemed fine. Not sure what happened to it up there, but something definitely seemed to go wrong.

While I wouldn't rule out increased faults being partly responsible, the paint job has unquestionably increased the attention on it. Some of the faults have been minor (ones that don't stop it being able to move on its own power, but still make it unfit for passenger service, including that graffiti act), and I would not be surprised if other units have had comparable minor issues in the same timeframe, but we don't bat an eyelid to because they're not unique units. What other Networker units have a speed dial no. you can text and in seconds know where it's due to be the whole day?

I think a DC version of the 385s would work very nicely, with 4 and 6 carriage variants.

With good acceleration and a group of them getting a 375-style refurb, these would be good on Maidstone East, Tunbridge Wells and Chatham mainline stopping services. The Networkers have good acceleration but low interior comfort; the 375s have good interior comfort, but poor acceleration. Rolling stock on outer-suburban/semi-fast services needs to be a good hybrid of these two.

 

[SolomonSouth]

While I wouldn't rule out increased faults being partly responsible, the paint job has unquestionably increased the attention on it. Some of the faults have been minor (ones that don't stop it being able to move on its own power, but still make it unfit for passenger service, including that graffiti act), and I would not be surprised if other units have had comparable minor issues in the same timeframe, but we don't bat an eyelid to because they're not unique units. What other Networker units have a speed dial no. you can text and in seconds know where it's due to be the whole day?

Fair point. You can't know where any other specific 465s are other than 908.

Either way, all the faults have probably put it at the top of the scrap list to make way for 377s, and just below it (probably) are the idling BRELS which have not moved for ages.

Yes, there was a posting which confirmed 377121-377133.

Thanks for confirming. 123-133 are those that are still yet to come then.

 

[JonathanH]

With good acceleration and a group of them getting a 375-style refurb, these would be good on Maidstone East, Tunbridge Wells and Chatham mainline stopping services.

Personally, I think the 707s would be reasonable for Tunbridge Wells services, once they are fitted with toilets. No need for anything to get a 375-style refurb.

 

[Cowley]

Just a reminder that this thread is to discuss

Planned 387 and 377 cascades to Southern and Southeastern in 2025​

Before we get any further off topic.

Thanks

 

[SolomonSouth]

I know 387129 at a minimum is with Southern. Not sure how many other 387/1 are with Southern though.

 

[BranstonJnc]

I think a DC version of the 385s would work very nicely, with 4 and 6 carriage variants.

One possible improvement would be a large fleet of 8 cars, all with the same design, but two interiors (a Metro-style and a Main Line-style). A fair few routes only warrant 8 car, or only take 8 car (Chatham Main Line stoppers, as well as the likes of Gillingham via Longfield, or Ashford via Maidstone East). Some Metro lines would also be able to function with 8 car operations only (e.g. the Bexleyheath line now that the Elizabeth Line has started to draw people away from that more traditional commuting route). If you had a set of 8 car units, either Main Line or Metro in interior, and gangway-fitted, you could then have a fleet of 4 car Metro units which bolt onto either to make 12 car operations at rush hour, and also be equally suitable for Maidstone West, Sheerness or the like.

Totally standard, standard kit of parts, doors, gangways, whatever. The only difference would be the Main Line interior for a part of the 8 car fleet.

That would allow all the 376s to go to Southern (very sensible - Bombardier product, Metro style, 10 car operations), and the 707s could be used for pretty much anything else.

 

[cactustwirly]

I think a DC version of the 385s would work very nicely, with 4 and 6 carriage variants.

I disagree they are not suitable Networker replacements. They are quite narrow and have high floors, quite a low capacity too.

Something like the 707s would be ideal, or something with high density 2+3 seating

6 carriages would be useless, would be better to have fives plus a subclass of 4s for the Victoria lines

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I disagree they are not suitable Networker replacements. They are quite narrow and have high floors, quite a low capacity too.

Something like the 707s would be ideal, or something with high density 2+3 seating

6 carriages would be useless, would be better to have fives plus a subclass of 4s for the Victoria lines

Only low capacity with ScotRail’s interior style. SouthEastern don’t have to do the same. I suggested them because they have great acceleration and they’re more reliable than Aventras, but unlike Desiro Cities they have gangways.

It wouldn’t be useless to have six carriages, because you could either use them with a four carriage set to make ten, OR another six carriage set to make twelve. Currently there are a range of Metro routes serviced by 12 cars in the peak. Only fives would cause those services to run with reduced capacity.

 

[Chiltern006]

it’s a shame the desiro city production line is closed…

 

[SolomonSouth]

I have seen 377121 and 122 around a fair bit, mostly in and out of Victoria/Charing X. Never Cannon Street. I assume the remaining 377/1 will have similar workings?

They either work with each other or work with 1X 377/5. Peculiarly I’ve never seen a 12 car 377 on SE. Any reason why this could be the case?

 

[brad465]

I have seen 377121 and 122 around a fair bit, mostly in and out of Victoria/Charing X. Never Cannon Street. I assume the remaining 377/1 will have similar workings?

They either work with each other or work with 1X 377/5. Peculiarly I’ve never seen a 12 car 377 on SE. Any reason why this could be the case?

They're rare, but I've been on a 12-car 377/5 with SE. I suspect the main reason they're rare is they are not needed on the routes they use, chiefly the Maidstone East line and to a lesser extent Chatham mainline stoppers. On the MDE line beyond Swanley, a 12-car needs SDO at every station bar Ashford. The one time I went on a 12-car was from MDE-Victoria several years ago, and it was very nice going into the back unit as it was quiet from not being in any platform until Swanley (granted a few boarded the rear unit there as the back is nearest the entrance).