Plymouth shooting incident - 12/08/21

[Typhoon]

The delightful Ms Patel has said as much.

She has started talking about extremist groups.
I know nothing about guns, but I've watched a couple of videos of pump-action shotguns (which the weapon was reported as being, but not confirmed). This seems very specialist to me, I cannot understand why most people, even those with gun licences, would need one. (I stand to be corrected on this). May be she should look at our gun laws? I wouldn't think they would be used in either 'country sports' or rifle shooting as a sport but when I searched for pump-action shotguns the results were mostly UK companies offering them for sale. I really can't see the need for most licence holders to have one, they just look like a bully's toy, maybe I am being naive?

 

[skyhigh]

It's reported this morning that the killer had his gun (and permit) returned to him in July after it was confiscated in December after an allegation of assault.

The police watchdog is investigating why the man who shot dead five people in Plymouth on Thursday had been given back his confiscated gun and permit.

Jake Davison was stripped of the weapon and its licence in December after he was accused of assault, the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) says.
It is to examine why Devon and Cornwall Police decided to return them in July.

Plymouth shooting: Starmer asks why gunman had licence

The police watchdog is investigating the decision to give back Jake Davison's shotgun and certificate.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Ediswan]

I know nothing about guns, but I've watched a couple of videos of pump-action shotguns (which the weapon was reported as being, but not confirmed). This seems very specialist to me, I cannot understand why most people, even those with gun licences, would need one. (I stand to be corrected on this). May be she should look at our gun laws? I wouldn't think they would be used in either 'country sports' or rifle shooting as a sport but when I searched for pump-action shotguns the results were mostly UK companies offering them for sale. I really can't see the need for most licence holders to have one, they just look like a bully's toy, maybe I am being naive?

I did a bit of reading yesterday. In the UK, pump action shotguns are limited to three cartridges. Apparently, they are useful for dealing with crows and the like on farms, but frowned upon by gun clubs.

 

[Trackman]

It's reported this morning that the killer had his gun (and permit) returned to him in July after it was confiscated in December after an allegation of assault.

Plymouth shooting: Starmer asks why gunman had licence

The police watchdog is investigating the decision to give back Jake Davison's shotgun and certificate.

www.bbc.co.uk

It seems they give them out willy-nilly.
This was a headline from the Independent 12 months ago:

Seven-year-old among 2,800 children granted gun licences by police in England and Wales​

Children under 14 can be allowed to own shotguns for 'sporting purposes', Home Office says​

What on earth is going on?
I am unable to read the full article but it does state they have to be supervised, for what it's worth.

 

[Typhoon]

I did a bit of reading yesterday. In the UK, pump action shotguns are limited to three cartridges. Apparently, they are useful for dealing with crows and the like on farms, but frowned upon by gun clubs.

Three cartridges - that is my understanding too. So maybe allow farmers to have them and not hobbyists (I read that the country sports set don't like them either, because it's not sporting)! It might not stop the likes of Davison, but might limit the toll.

I don't mind crows, they see off herring gulls, although they are bl00dy noisy.

 

[MattA7]

I find it very hard to believe a country that has some of the strictest gun laws in the world would issue a gun license to a child. Even the US which has a very poor reputation internationally for its lax gun laws don’t issue gun licenses to under 18s (21 for handguns and carry permits)

Out of interest has there been a reduction in firearms related offenses since gun ownership became heavily restricted. I was always told before the early 90s nearly everyone in the UK owned guns.

 

[Cowley]

Out of interest has there been a reduction in firearms related offenses since gun ownership became heavily restricted. I was always told before the early 90s nearly everyone in the UK owned guns.

In no way was that the case Matt. Although there were certain areas that were synonymous with gun crime back then, it was incredibly unusual to know someone that had a gun or even knew someone that knew someone who had one…
I don’t know if others would agree here, but I don’t feel like the threat of (or lack of) gun crime has changed that much for many years overall actually?

 

[hst43102]

I was always told before the early 90s nearly everyone in the UK owned guns.

I very much doubt that you were told the truth there. Maybe in rural areas, but certainly not "nearly everyone"...

 

[SteveM70]

I don’t know if others would agree here, but I don’t feel like the threat of (or lack of) gun crime has changed that much for many years overall actually?

It depends where you live I suppose. In my 20s when I was young and skint I lived in some pretty ropey areas of a couple of “problem” towns/cities, but even then whilst I knew of some of the ne’er do wells, I never felt directly threatened. But I knew people who - often by being in the wrong place at the wrong time - were scared witless.

 

[Ediswan]

I find it very hard to believe a country that has some of the strictest gun laws in the world would issue a gun license to a child.

It is not an open licence. Quoting The Guardian:

There is no minimum age for applying for a shotgun certificate, but the law prohibits children from using the weapons without supervision of an adult, aged at least 21, until they are 15. Children and teenagers aged under 18 are also banned from purchasing or hiring any firearm or ammunition.

UK law is considered unusually strict due its almost absolute ban on handguns/pistols. The rules for shotguns and sporting rifles are more pragmatic.

 

[MattA7]

I very much doubt that you were told the truth there. Maybe in rural areas, but certainly not "nearly everyone"...

Perhaps the information I was told was inaccurate (to young to remember most of the 90s) I was always under the impression that it was the Dunblane tragedy that resulted in a significant change in UK firearms laws and before that most British citizens were gun owners.

 

[AlterEgo]

Perhaps the information I was told was inaccurate (to young to remember most of the 90s) I was always under the impression that it was the Dunblane tragedy that resulted in a significant change in UK firearms laws and before that most British citizens were gun owners.

It was untrue, plain and simple. Gun ownership has always been a very niche pursuit in the UK.

 

[Busaholic]

She has started talking about extremist groups.
I know nothing about guns, but I've watched a couple of videos of pump-action shotguns (which the weapon was reported as being, but not confirmed). This seems very specialist to me, I cannot understand why most people, even those with gun licences, would need one. (I stand to be corrected on this). May be she should look at our gun laws? I wouldn't think they would be used in either 'country sports' or rifle shooting as a sport but when I searched for pump-action shotguns the results were mostly UK companies offering them for sale. I really can't see the need for most licence holders to have one, they just look like a bully's toy, maybe I am being naive?

Davison lived in the shadow of Devonport Dockyard, so any talk of him being involved with farming or 'country sports' is fanciful in the extreme, so why was he allowed a shotgun licence in the first place? He made a chilling reference on his social media account to there being far more guns in the U.K. than was generally realised: if true, how did he know this? If he had not himself died, I'm sure he would have been prosecuted under Anti-Terrorism legislation.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Davison lived in the shadow of Devonport Dockyard, so any talk of him being involved with farming or 'country sports' is fanciful in the extreme, so why was he allowed a shotgun licence in the first place? He made a chilling reference on his social media account to there being far more guns in the U.K. than was generally realised: if true, how did he know this? If he had not himself died, I'm sure he would have been prosecuted under Anti-Terrorism legislation.

I wonder if his internet socialising had put him into contact with some of the dubious characters from Northern cities... the ones who seem to think that "all the immigrants have guns".

Yeah, guns are so widespread that even politically motivated assassins have to make their own.

 

[GB]

Davison lived in the shadow of Devonport Dockyard, so any talk of him being involved with farming or 'country sports' is fanciful in the extreme, so why was he allowed a shotgun licence in the first place? He made a chilling reference on his social media account to there being far more guns in the U.K. than was generally realised: if true, how did he know this? If he had not himself died, I'm sure he would have been prosecuted under Anti-Terrorism legislation.

I don‘t know the ins and outs of why this person was issued a license (nor I suspect does most people) but you do not need to be a farmer or part of a club to be issued with one.

I’m also not sure what is so “chilling” about saying there are more guns about then people think or why this would point towards something like this happening.

I find it very hard to believe a country that has some of the strictest gun laws in the world would issue a gun license to a child. Even the US which has a very poor reputation internationally for its lax gun laws don’t issue gun licenses to under 18s (21 for handguns and carry permits)

I think you are confusing things with carry permits and purchase restrictions. There are plenty of kids in the USA that have their own guns.

 

[birchesgreen]

I think you are confusing things with carry permits and purchase restrictions. There are plenty of kids in the USA that have their own guns.

Yeah its not hard to find pics of American kids online proudly carrying their M16s!

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I do not know anyone who has told me they a gun at home, but many people would keep quiet about it.

A good change to the law would be raising the age when one may hold a weapon.

 

[birchesgreen]

The only time you would have had a lot of guns in the civilian population was just after the world wars and demobbed soldiers bringing souvenirs home. A lot were soon disposed of one way or the other. I heard that a couple of my ancestors came home from the First with some German pistols and a few bullets. They were told to get rid of them and had the brainwave of hiding them up the chimney (in the summer). When winter came and the fire was lit they'd forgotten the stuff was up there until the bullets started going off!

 

[Falcon1200]

Davison's holding of a firearms licence is concerning, especially in light of his recent pronouncements on social media. Devon and Cornwall police have many questions to answer.

The delightful Ms Patel has said as much.

As indeed has the delightful Sir Starmer, and clearly they are both absolutely right.

May be she should look at our gun laws?

The gun laws seem to have been effective initially in that his gun was removed, what is so hard to understand is why he was allowed it back, ie who made that decision and why.

I was always under the impression that it was the Dunblane tragedy that resulted in a significant change in UK firearms laws and before that most British citizens were gun owners.

Definitely not ! The only guns I ever owned were cowboy-style cap shooters as a kid, and famously of course most of our Police Officers do not, still, carry firearms. Which always makes me feel uncomfortable when abroad seeing every cop with a gun on their belt.

 

[DelW]

Perhaps the information I was told was inaccurate (to young to remember most of the 90s) I was always under the impression that it was the Dunblane tragedy that resulted in a significant change in UK firearms laws and before that most British citizens were gun owners.

Definitely not. In almost 70 years living in Britain I have never known anyone who owned anything more powerful than an airgun or air rifle, and that was only one or two many years ago.

In rural areas there will be a number who own shotguns, but even there I suspect it was a minority.

Personally I have never even seen so much as a shotgun close up, let alone anything more (other than carried by airport police).

 

[Typhoon]

Perhaps the information I was told was inaccurate (to young to remember most of the 90s) I was always under the impression that it was the Dunblane tragedy that resulted in a significant change in UK firearms laws and before that most British citizens were gun owners.

Definitely not ! The only guns I ever owned were cowboy-style cap shooters as a kid, and famously of course most of our Police Officers do not, still, carry firearms. Which always makes me feel uncomfortable when abroad seeing every cop with a gun on their belt.

I think a fair number of guns were handed in but I believe many of these were souvenirs from the war. The owners probably had no ammunition, it was tucked away somewhere, not seeing he light of day for years, and it had only been kept to indicate the the owner or their parent had played an active part in the defeat of Hitler. Events like Dunblane brought it home that they were still potentially life-ending weapons and the need to remember their part in the war was no longer dominant.

In rural areas there will be a number who own shotguns, but even there I suspect it was a minority.

A friend of my father kept chickens, he had a rifle. The only reason I know is that we went to his smallholding after a fox had been in his hen house. We scoured the local area bashing at vegetation with large sticks with the hope that the fox would spring out and Len would shoot it. Looking back I realise how stupid the idea was, I was about 10, my sister about 8 and I never saw Len with the gun before or after. I reckon the few that owned guns were often the Len's of this world.

 

[BrokenSam]

I’ve been following this sort of thing for a while. Blackpill stuff is essentially complete hopelessness and nihilism, the belief that incels are victims of fate, and that no meaningful change will be of help.

I’d say a blackpill movement of total nihilism - by definition - could never be terrorism, which must have some sort of political objective. Jonestown wasn’t terrorism, for example. It was a cultist mass murder.

Things can be very bad, and need urgent action, without being terrorism.

It's Misogynist Terrorism.

 

[GB]

It's Misogynist Terrorism.

Is that a phrase you have just made up?

 

[AlterEgo]

It's Misogynist Terrorism.

Attaching the T-word to everything which is terribly bad and also violent isn’t helpful.

It’s possible for incel violence to be a serious and urgent issue and not at the same time be terrorism.

People just like to attach the T-word to justify why someone should get additional condemnation or a stronger sentence. I think I’d prefer a society where we treated out and out misogyny as the threat it is rather than linking it in with people like the IRA and thinking this was a helpful development.

 

[Busaholic]

It is just getting into semantics as to whether a man whose ideology is framed in the messages he shared with like-minded people and then carries out cold-blooded executions could be called a terrorist. He certainly caused terror well beyond his mother's home: if he had stopped there, then I would have tended to think it not too worthwhile to go into that aspect of it once he had killed himself too. Knowing what we know now about him and his acquaintances, it seems absolutely essential to national security that the people he identified with and espoused the same perverted 'cause' be investigated. I'm sure that will mean a lot of sad, inadequate fantasists will find their affairs trawled through without any evidence that they had either the means or the intention to actually cause murderous mayhem, but so be it. I am also sure some others will require further attention, possibly lifetime scrutiny, by the counter terrorism people and, in a few cases, maybe instant criminal sanctions under either hate crime or anti-terror legislation.

 

[BrokenSam]

Attaching the T-word to everything which is terribly bad and also violent isn’t helpful.

It’s possible for incel violence to be a serious and urgent issue and not at the same time be terrorism.

People just like to attach the T-word to justify why someone should get additional condemnation or a stronger sentence. I think I’d prefer a society where we treated out and out misogyny as the threat it is rather than linking it in with people like the IRA and thinking this was a helpful development.

I don't understand your point to be honest. What's you issue with the growing threat of incels being characterised as terrorism? My point is that Mysoginist Terrorism is a recognised form of terrorism.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I imagine the victims experienced "terror" in their last seconds.

 

[Falcon1200]

I have always understood terrorism to be violence committed in pursuit of a political or religious aim; What was this guy's motivation, other than fury and rage ?

 

[BrokenSam]

The definition also includes ideological beliefs that manifest into these actions.

 

[Ediswan]

I think a fair number of guns were handed in but I believe many of these were souvenirs from the war. The owners probably had no ammunition, it was tucked away somewhere, not seeing he light of day for years

They still show up from time to time. Often when multiple generations of the same family have occupied a house and the attic has not been cleared out for decades.