Poor quality passenger rail service increases demand for private car purchases

[yorksrob]

I fear you maybe campaigning for the wrong type of change!

apologies if I missed any humour

Indeed. If the change alluded to is not having any train services, then I don't want it anyway.

 

[johncrossley]

Indeed. If the change alluded to is not having any train services, then I don't want it anyway.

Obviously I support the railways in principle, otherwise I wouldn't be here. But if people just return to the train as if nothing had happened, that won't help in the long run.

 

[yorksrob]

Obviously I support the railways in principle, otherwise I wouldn't be here. But if people just return to the train as if nothing had happened, that won't help in the long run.

People returning to the train as though nothing has is probably the best outcome in terms of reducing the revenue gap. Government and the unions need to do their bit to reach an agreement.

 

[johncrossley]

People returning to the train as though nothing has is probably the best outcome in terms of reducing the revenue gap. Government and the unions need to do their bit to reach an agreement.

If that happens then there won't be any reform and there will be another strike in the future.

 

[GoneSouth]

Obviously I support the railways in principle, otherwise I wouldn't be here. But if people just return to the train as if nothing had happened, that won't help in the long run.

But that’s exactly what people do need to do.

1. they need to get back to work
2. if they don’t numbers and revenue will be down which is the catalyst for the wrong kind of change in my view

If that happens then there won't be any reform and there will be another strike in the future.

There isn’t an outcome here that negates the possibility of any strikes in the future, whether that be next year or in 10 years

 

[yorksrob]

If that happens then there won't be any reform and there will be another strike in the future.

The passengers need to come back to enable revenue to grow again. Only then will the industry have the funding envelope to undertake essential reforms (such as employing enough people to not to have to depend on overtime).

 

[henairs]

After this mornings farce on the GWML, it would have been quicker to drive to Hillingdon then tube than take the train from Reading.

Everything was delayed by half an hour, due to reasons like trains being late from the Depot and train faults. Not as if they have had FIVE days to get all these things right.

Of course the first train was already packed 5 car that must have left hundreds behind.

Honestly makes the railway look incompetent

You sum it up perfectly and incompetent for managers is spot on. Living in the West Country we often get an apology for a manager based in Bristol I assume who’s often making excuses on the local television news reports.
Thank goodness for the workers of this country, if we relied on managers we would have sunk years ago.

 

[GoneSouth]

You sum it up perfectly and incompetent for managers is spot on. Living in the West Country we often get an apology for a manager based in Bristol I assume who’s often making excuses on the local television news reports.
Thank goodness for the workers of this country, if we relied on managers we would have sunk years ago.

I think we did sink a couple of years ago thanks to Boris and his chums. It’s just taking a long time to hit the bottom

 

[43096]

You sum it up perfectly and incompetent for managers is spot on. Living in the West Country we often get an apology for a manager based in Bristol I assume who’s often making excuses on the local television news reports.
Thank goodness for the workers of this country, if we relied on managers we would have sunk years ago.

Ah yes, managers. Those people that get berated, usually by those people don't have a clue about what management does. Strangely, when there is no management the job falls apart because the workers aren't actually as good as they think they are. The reality is that managers are very necessary, and you get good, bad and indifferent ones just like in any other role.

 

[miklcct]

A lot of IT contractors have moved abroad to avoid IR35, some carrying on doing the same work they used to do, but now living abroad and working via a "foreign" subsidy of the same employer rather than for the UK subsidiary! I've got a couple of clients who "contract" for UK banks, one now lives in Spain, the other in Canada, both still doing exactly the same work as before but now doing it from outside the UK - they were thinking of emigrating anyway, but IR35 was the push they needed! Another client works for a firm specialising in mergers and acquisitions of a City firm, used to spend winter in her Portugal "holiday home" but has now moved there permanently to avoid IR35, again still doing the same work for the same firm, but now paid by their European branch! Not only does the UK now not get any tax/nic from them at all, they're not commuting by train anymore either, so not buying season tickets - they're just occasionally flying in/out when necessary for meetings etc (carefully keeping below the number of days of "residence" to avoid becoming UK tax resident!).

Why don't they just move to outside IR35 works instead? Outside IR35 means much more freedom in terms of working, including setting my own hours (to avoid peak hour train travel), and subcontracting my work to cheaper foreign talents, etc.

 

[The Ham]

I would suggest that it's actually a re-run of the effects of increasing car ownership after the First World War when the rise of the Austin 7 and char-a-bancs played merry hell with takings of the railways for leisure passenger travel.

The number of private cars registered for use on the road increased from 187,000 in 1920 to over 2,000,000 by 1939 which had a huge effect on the railways' receipts.

Only in those cases where the work can come to the home.

Rail use in 1920 is exceptional and almost a one off (2.1bn), with only 1921 being higher (2.2bn), however pre war use was 1.5bn and post war it didn't fall below this until 1926 (1922 was circa 1.8bn)

But talking up the trains is counter-productive. People should stay away from trains as much as possible. Otherwise nothing will change.

If we want reform, the thing to do is use railways in the ways which we want then to be used. For example not using ticket offices.

The one thing I would say is that many residents don't actually result in headcount reductions.

TfL closing ticket offices had the same staff at (broadly) the same stations or TVM with remote staff assistance means staff in a central location covering multiple stations, but needing several staff to cover the whole day.

 

[jayah]

People seem very happy to have the trains back. Both that I've worked this morning have been full & standing too.

That further demonstrates why Sunday working needs to be fixed, not kicked into the long grass. Again.

Commuting and expensive business trips it is a different story of course and that money isn't coming back.

A lot of IT contractors have moved abroad to avoid IR35, some carrying on doing the same work they used to do, but now living abroad and working via a "foreign" subsidy of the same employer rather than for the UK subsidiary! I've got a couple of clients who "contract" for UK banks, one now lives in Spain, the other in Canada, both still doing exactly the same work as before but now doing it from outside the UK - they were thinking of emigrating anyway, but IR35 was the push they needed! Another client works for a firm specialising in mergers and acquisitions of a City firm, used to spend winter in her Portugal "holiday home" but has now moved there permanently to avoid IR35, again still doing the same work for the same firm, but now paid by their European branch! Not only does the UK now not get any tax/nic from them at all, they're not commuting by train anymore either, so not buying season tickets - they're just occasionally flying in/out when necessary for meetings etc (carefully keeping below the number of days of "residence" to avoid becoming UK tax resident!).

So higher taxes does drive high value added economic activity and tax receipts out of the country after all!

The passengers need to come back to enable revenue to grow again. Only then will the industry have the funding envelope to undertake essential reforms (such as employing enough people to not to have to depend on overtime).

Employing enough people to not depend on overtime, means not employing any more people, but either extending their contracted hours, or cutting the timetable to fit inside the envelope.

 

[dk1]

That further demonstrates why Sunday working needs to be fixed, not kicked into the long grass. Again.

Commuting and expensive business trips it is a different story of course and that money isn't coming back.

Absolutely no problem with Sunday working on my patch & never has been. You won’t see any cancellations here for that reason.

 

[GoneSouth]

TfL closing ticket offices had the same staff at (broadly) the same stations or TVM with remote staff assistance means staff in a central location covering multiple stations, but needing several staff to cover the whole day.

Remote assistance can’t guide you to the platform if you can’t see it. Remote assistance can’t assist if you can’t find the button to call it. I wouldn’t know if remote assistance can remotely operate a TVM for those that can’t use them as I always use the ticket office!

 

[yorksrob]

Employing enough people to not depend on overtime, means not employing any more people, but either extending their contracted hours, or cutting the timetable to fit inside the envelope.

Contracted hours are necessarily limited due to safety requirements and cutting the timetable to fit the envelope will reduce revenue further.

 

[Dai Corner]

Contracted hours are necessarily limited due to safety requirements and cutting the timetable to fit the envelope will reduce revenue further.

It may well cut costs more than revenue and reduce the amount of subsidy required though?

 

[Phil56]

Why don't they just move to outside IR35 works instead? Outside IR35 means much more freedom in terms of working, including setting my own hours (to avoid peak hour train travel), and subcontracting my work to cheaper foreign talents, etc.

There are comparably very few "outside IR35" contracts especially as the big players deem all their contractors to be inside IR35 because they're too lazy and risk averse to do proper contract/working practice reviews. It's the "engager" who bears the responsibility and cost if HMRC deem the contractor to be caught, so they're not going to take that risk as the potential tax cost (and fines) can be huge. That's basically the crux of the recent changes. IR35 is exactly the same and unchanged, but up to the recent changes, it was the contractor who'd get the bill if they were caught but hadn't paid the "right" tax/nic - now after the changes, it's the engager who gets caught. 20 years ago, IR35 was planned that way (engager takes the risk), but the law was changed at pretty much the last minute to make it the contractor bearing the risk, now it's been reverted back to the original plan! Hence the massive damage it's caused, which 20 years ago, the Govt listened to and took heed - unfortunately, current Govt didn't listen and we're in the mess we're in with the labour shortages in lots of areas, not just IT contracting but also locum GPs and lorry drivers!

 

[Master29]

But talking up the trains is counter-productive. People should stay away from trains as much as possible. Otherwise nothing will change.

What do you really mean by change?

Obviously I support the railways in principle, otherwise I wouldn't be here. But if people just return to the train as if nothing had happened, that won't help in the long run.

Again, but why should they stay away?

If that happens then there won't be any reform and there will be another strike in the future.

If you are talking about the kind of reforms that would give us European style railways then I completely agree even if it's unlikely to happen with our government model.

 

[johncrossley]

What do you really mean by change?

A train service that isn't prone to disruption due to industrial action.

Again, but why should they stay away?

If strikes are resolved simply by unions getting what they want then there is nothing to stop unions thinking they are all powerful and going on strike to get even more in the future. If people don't go back to trains as normal, then that would blow the argument that strikes don't matter, because passengers come back anyway.

 

[Master29]

A train service that isn't prone to disruption due to industrial action.

So, you now want to take a basic right away from a worker and advocate a system where the are no safeguards for them. I fear you will get into hot water with this argument.

 

[Huntergreed]

I view the current situation on the railways as a little paradoxical.

We need more passengers to increase revenue and be able to end the industrial disputes.

We need to end the industrial disputes to appear reliable enough to encourage passengers to return.

I think the railway are shooting themselves in the foot a little, especially when they are still set on following the pre-Covid pricing model (which is based on commuting). I also wonder if those striking truly realise the damage they are doing to the reputation (and longer term viability) of the railway.

It seems quite clear that commuting (less so) and business trips using rail are (to a certain extent) a thing of the past. The railway is now a predominantly leisure transport service, and absolutely should be marketing and adjusting itself as such.

As a resident on the WCML, I don’t feel inclined to use the train for a day out as I can’t rely on it (or the return to get me home) to run. As a result, I’m likely to use the car. That, combined with the fact that booking anything in advance is likely to coincide with a strike day, puts me off booking any rail journey more than 2-3 weeks away. I say this as a very passionate supporter of the railways (outside of the current industrial dispute).

Can you blame people for wanting to buy and use a car when the very system that is designed and intended to limit the need for car use is so unreliable that it directly encourages it through its actions?

 

[johncrossley]

So, you now want to take a basic right away from a worker and advocate a system where the are no safeguards for them. I fear you will get into hot water with this argument.

No I don't want to take that right away, but I want to create a scenario where there is no point going on strike because it won't work. What the point in having trains if you can't use them? If strikes always work, where is the incentive for them not to go on strike and get even more?

 

[Scott1]

No I don't want to take that right away, but I want to create a scenario where there is no point going on strike because it won't work. What the point in having trains if you can't use them? If strikes always work, where is the incentive for them not to go on strike and get even more?

The alternative is everyone quits. I can speak for other parts, but my TOC has struggled to fill jobs and our attrition is a significant problem, especially since Covid. Removing the right to strike won't fix that. Look what happens just when people don't do overtime, even when there is no industrial action, the service falls on its bum.

I find this argument to ban industrial action very lazy. Why improve a workplace when we can just force people to work or quit. Problem with that is when you have a strong job market, like now, people quit.

 

[johncrossley]

The alternative is everyone quits. I can speak for other parts, but my TOC has struggled to fill jobs and our attrition is a significant problem, especially since Covid. Removing the right to strike won't fix that. Look what happens just when people don't do overtime, even when there is no industrial action, the service falls on its bum.

I find this argument to ban industrial action very lazy. Why improve a workplace when we can just force people to work or quit. Problem with that is when you have a strong job market, like now, people quit.

If people leave or threaten to leave, that is a more appropriate use of employee power, and is the norm in most industries outside the railways. In a strong labour market, employers who want to keep their staff do what is necessary.

 

[Thirteen]

Obviously I support the railways in principle, otherwise I wouldn't be here. But if people just return to the train as if nothing had happened, that won't help in the long run.

Your suggestion that people stay away from trains is a wind up because it's a crucial mode of transport. Governments don't want congested cities and trains, it's why public transport exists.

 

[johncrossley]

Your suggestion that people stay away from trains is a wind up because it's a crucial mode of transport. Governments don't want congested cities and trains, it's why public transport exists.

Obviously I don't want people to stay away from trains permanently. Only as long as it is necessary until disruption due to strike action is no longer a worry in the future.

 

[GoneSouth]

No I don't want to take that right away, but I want to create a scenario where there is no point going on strike because it won't work. What the point in having trains if you can't use them? If strikes always work, where is the incentive for them not to go on strike and get even more?

So, you want to allow people to strike but not allow them the right to have a positive outcome from the strike. I’m baffled

You may as well just say you don’t want people to have the right to strike

Obviously I don't want people to stay away from trains permanently. Only as long as it is necessary until disruption due to strike action is no longer a worry in the future.

Unless you ban strikes permanently then you can never guarantee there’ll be no future disruption from strikes.

I think I’ll leave it there, we seem to have hit a dead end on this point

 

[johncrossley]

Unless you ban strikes permanently then you can never guarantee there’ll be no future disruption from strikes.

Swiss Railways almost never go on strike. That may be part of the reason why they are so successful.

 

[Scott1]

Swiss Railways almost never go on strike. That may be part of the reason why they are so successful.

Not because they banned strikes though. I'm really unsure what your proposing, specifically.

 

[dk1]

Swiss Railways almost never go on strike. That may be part of the reason why they are so successful.

Stadler have been working to rule at GA & have now received an impressive pay deal