Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[D9006]

1251 Alderley edge to Southport is a 769 , could hear it pulling out of Hindley station, no allocation showing on realtimes, so at least 3 out today, 424, 450 plus this one

 

[Techniquest]

I find the inverter noise on 319s (and by extension 769s) to be possibly the nicest sound on the railway, it sounds like a violin playing to me and sounds relaxing.

At full power, I'm inclined to agree. Not sure I'd liken the sound to a violin, I don't know what I'd compare it to though. On a related note, I swear down the 323s with Northern sound more alive than the WMR ones do. I nearly did a round trip yesterday to Hadfield, both for the nostalgia and for the 323 noise!

 

[Sean Emmett]

Timed 769s 424 and 450 today, 450 the livelier. Not sure if down to the unit or driver.

424 left Bolton for Alderley Edge on diesel! Emergency stop, re-set. And away again on electric.

450 left Bolton on diesel heading for Southport within a minute (58s) of arrival on electric.

Timekeeping exemplary, although 424 held Oxford Road for a freightliner.

Both units reached 71mph on diesel and 75 ish on electric.

Beer at Piccadilly, before the 150 on the 19.18 to Southport for a bit of comparison.

 

[507021]

At full power, I'm inclined to agree. Not sure I'd liken the sound to a violin, I don't know what I'd compare it to though. On a related note, I swear down the 323s with Northern sound more alive than the WMR ones do. I nearly did a round trip yesterday to Hadfield, both for the nostalgia and for the 323 noise!

I'll third that. Big fan of the Mk3 EMU "noise" but the PEPs are top of the charts for me!

 

[D9006]

0637 Man Vic -Southport is a 769 which forms 0815 to Alderley Edge, realtimes not showing unit allocation could hear the emu sound from house as left Hindley station just. 434 was hour late leaving Alperton(train crew issues it’s saying) so 1st part of diagram cancelled,

 

[175001]

I've just driven it to Southport. 450. Absolutely flying on diesel mode this morning. Superb unit.

 

[Gricer99]

Timings won't be good today. We have a "police incident" on the bridge so no trains or cars passing through.

 

[D9006]

I've just driven it to Southport. 450. Absolutely flying on diesel mode this morning. Superb unit.

Cant get better than that, verdict from a driver, case proven

 

[adrock1976]

Cant get better than that, verdict from a driver, case proven

Not putting a dampener on things, but that was only one 769 out of x in the whole fleet.

Also, in science, you do not prove or disprove anything. You either uphold or reject the null hypothesis e.g converting Class 319s into 769s will not work (as the null hypothesis), or converting Class 319s into 769s will work as intended (as the hypothesis).

 

[gallafent]

Also, in science, you do not prove or disprove anything. You either uphold or reject the null hypothesis e.g converting Class 319s into 769s will not work (as the null hypothesis), or converting Class 319s into 769s will work as intended (as the hypothesis).

Exactly, and it's not clear exactly what case is even up for investigation here … if it's about performance, then that is exactly not proven by one person's opinion, it's proven by a large sufficiently large set of experimental measurements …

 

[Sean Emmett]

Based on my very small sample on Friday (2x 769 and 1× 150 runs) the 150 still produced the quicker start to stop times, west of Bolton.

Have seen comments re 769s should be better on starting than a 150, but my experience here (and from a couple of trips to Rhymney) is that there is a 5 - 10 sec delay before full power is applied on a 769, whereas 150 can take full power from the off, subject to rail conditions. All runs timed so far were in dry rail conditions.

On thing that was noticeable was later braking with 769 450 especially westbound to Burscough Bridge.

 

[The Ham]

Based on my very small sample on Friday (2x 769 and 1× 150 runs) the 150 still produced the quicker start to stop times, west of Bolton.

Have seen comments re 769s should be better on starting than a 150, but my experience here (and from a couple of trips to Rhymney) is that there is a 5 - 10 sec delay before full power is applied on a 769, whereas 150 can take full power from the off, subject to rail conditions. All runs timed so far were in dry rail conditions.

On thing that was noticeable was later braking with 769 450 especially westbound to Burscough Bridge.

I would however suggest that for most people a small delay from the slower rate of acceleration (and a delay in applying full power of 5-10 seconds isn't a 5-10 second delay) is "offset" by the higher chance of getting a 4 coach train.
Also, as others have noted, due to a more even distribution of passengers along the train, chances are a lot of the lost time is gained back through faster loading/unloading times as all the doors are likely to be more evenly used.

As such, whilst we may reserve the right to have a more critical view of if this was successful, for many the benchmark is do they get a seat more easily, maybe are they more comfortable (and that's very personal, so isn't likely to be easy to agree on).

 

[edwin_m]

Based on my very small sample on Friday (2x 769 and 1× 150 runs) the 150 still produced the quicker start to stop times, west of Bolton.

Have seen comments re 769s should be better on starting than a 150, but my experience here (and from a couple of trips to Rhymney) is that there is a 5 - 10 sec delay before full power is applied on a 769, whereas 150 can take full power from the off, subject to rail conditions. All runs timed so far were in dry rail conditions.

On thing that was noticeable was later braking with 769 450 especially westbound to Burscough Bridge.

The 769 has disc brakes so should be capable of better deceleration, but may be more prone to adhesion issues so drivers may brake more cautiously on wet/leafy rails.

The issue with delay before taking full power may be an illusion from the nature of the transmissions and the engine noise. A hydraulic transmission needs the engine to produce full power, but at low speed almost all of that power is turned into heat in the transmission. An electric transmission can start moving at not much more than idling, and the power that can be used will increase with speed, so the engine speed will increase in a similar way until it's at maximum.

Having said that the main factor influencing acceleration at low speeds is the proportion of the weight on powered axles. That's 50% with the 150 and IIRC about 30% with a 769, so the 150 should be ahead from a standing start. At higher speed the ratio of power (at the rail) to weight becomes more important.

 

[scrapy]

Do these have cab air-conditioning now?

No but it has been agreed that they will get them.

 

[175001]

Cant get better than that, verdict from a driver, case proven

I drove 456 the other day, it was the complete opposite unfortunately

 

[507020]

I drove 456 the other day, it was the complete opposite unfortunately

How much variation is there between such a small fleet. Are they all running different (worse) software versions?

 

[175001]

They should be all the same but we all know that's not the case. I can't really give any indications on variations but the difference in performance on 450 compared to 456 was very noticeable. All depends on the conditions too as it was a very warm day on Monday when I drove 456

 

[507021]

I drove 456 the other day, it was the complete opposite unfortunately

That particular unit doesn't seem to have much luck.

I wonder if it's because it was one of the prototypes?

 

[Senna1210]

Can be the diference between wheel sets and motors the fleet is all at a std baseline on the flex side

 

[D9006]

 

[Gricer99]

Nice videos! The two on today seem to be behaving well.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Nice videos! The two on today seem to be behaving well.

I wouldn't call only two in service "good" by any means.
Three is borderline good, but two is adequate on a good day.

 

[D9006]

I wouldn't call only two in service "good" by any means.
Three is borderline good, but two is adequate on a good day.

One on a stalybridge diagram too

 

[AM9]

Clearly when the 769s have problems causing them to be withdrawn from their diagrams, they receive attention and return sometime later. Does anybody here know whether there is a programme of modifications to reduce (or prevent) a recurrence of the same fault, or are the faults not fully investigated resulting in little likely improvement of the situation?

 

[55125]

According to the regional director update today, Brush, and Porterbrook are involved in getting the remaining units back into service before the weekend.

If this was the case, I don’t believe the issues with them would be so persistent.
Them getting into service will be down to the Northern staff. How long they stay in service will revolve around Brush and their ability to solve the glitches.

Can be the diference between wheel sets and motors the fleet is all at a std baseline on the flex side

Currently there is possibly 4 variations of electrical cubicles on the 769/4 fleet alone. End to end on the same unit could’ve been assembled or harnessed differently. Just one example of them not really being “baselined”

I wouldn't call only two in service "good" by any means.
Three is borderline good, but two is adequate on a good day.

There has been 3 or 4 stabled at Allerton since Friday ready for service, so not entirely sure what decision has been made not to run them.
AFAIK 424 is currently awaiting repairs once it returns to Allerton.

I've just driven it to Southport. 450. Absolutely flying on diesel mode this morning. Superb unit.

This is good to hear. Hopefully Brush / Northern will bring the rest of the fleet in line.

 

[Senna1210]

Currently there is possibly 4 variations of electrical cubicles on the 769/4 fleet alone. End to end on the same unit could’ve been assembled or harnessed differently. Just one example of them not really being “baselined”

Please do expand on this statement

 

[Gricer99]

434 misbehaving at least twice, adding 10 mins at Bolton today

 

[The_Train]

Few updates to the list:

Number	Ex No.	Livery	TOC	Depot/Location	Current State
769002	319002	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769003	319003	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769006	319006	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769007	319007	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769008	319008	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769421	319421	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769424	319424	Northern	Northern	Allerton	In Service
769426	319426	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	TfW	Loughborough Works	Converted - undergoing further maintenance to receive driving car 77340 back into the formation
769431	319431	Northern	Northern	Allerton	In Service
769434	319434	Northern	Northern	Allerton	In Service
769442	319442	Northern	Northern	Allerton	In Service
769445	319445	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769448	319448	Northern	Northern	Allerton	In Service
769450	319450	Northern	Northern	Allerton	In Service
769452	319452	TfW	TfW	Cardiff Canton	In Service
769456	319456	Northern	Northern	Allerton	In Service
769458	319458	Northern	Northern	Allerton	In Service
769501	319010	Orion Dark & Light Blue	ROG	Eastleigh Works	Conversion to 769 complete - internal work ongoing
769502	319009	Orion Dark & Light Blue	ROG	Loughborough Works	Internal mod work complete - moved to Loughborough for bi-mode conversion work
769503			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769504			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769505			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769506			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769507			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769508			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769509			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769510			ROG		Conversion work yet to start
769922	319422	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769923	319423	GWR Green	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769925	319425	GWR Green	GWR	Nemesis Rail, Burton	Conversion complete - stored, awaiting testing
769927	319427	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Loughborough Works	Undergoing conversion
769928	319428	GWR Green	GWR	Nemesis Rail, Burton	Converted - awaiting testing
769930	319430	GWR Green	GWR	Reading Traincare	Undergoing mainline testing
769932	319432	GWR Green	GWR	Nemesis Rail, Burton	Converted - awaiting testing
769935	319435	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Long Marston	Conversion work yet to start
769936	319436	GWR Green	GWR	Nemesis Rail, Burton	Converted - awaiting testing
769937	319437	GWR Green	GWR	Wolverton Works	Converted - awaiting testing
769938	319438	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Nemesis Rail, Burton	Converted - awaiting testing
769939	319439	GWR Green	GWR	Nemesis Rail, Burton	Converted - awaiting testing
769940	319440	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Undergoing conversion
769943	319443	GWR Green	GWR	Reading Traincare	Undergoing testing
769944	319444	GWR Green	GWR	Nemesis Rail, Burton	Converted - stored, awaiting testing
769946	319446	GWR Green	GWR	Reading Traincare	Undergoing testing
769947	319447	Ex TL White & Blue Doors	GWR	Wolverton Works	Conversion work yet to start
769949	319449	GWR Green	GWR	Nemesis Rail, Burton	Conversion complete - stored, awaiting testing
769959	319459	GWR Green	GWR	Nemesis Rail, Burton	Conversion complete - stored, awaiting testing

For the millionth time I have switched the ROG ones around again based on a news release by Orion last month, which basically indicated that 319009 was becoming 769502 and was off to Loughborough for the bi-mode conversion. On this basis I assume that 769501 will come from 319010 as these are the 2 units continually associated to the ROG work!

The other changes are 426 is confirmed as having driving car 77340 back, saw a photo of 930 out and about earlier so assume testing, 936 has moved from Long Marston to Nemesis and 944 is now converted & at Nemesis.

 

[Killingworth]

Apparently only 434 and 456 out today which seemingly leaves 5 out of service. Those of us who welcomed the idea must be increasingly concerned that after so long to set them up so few are operational.

Considering the problems encountered with 484s we surely must reconsider the economics of recycling 30-40 year old trains in this way. Good job the 150s have been patched up to last a bit longer. We need to get ordering some standard purpose built bi-modes for introduction nationwide ASAP. Units that that can easily be cascaded anywhere as more lines are electrified.

 

[Grumpy Git]

As an engineer with zero railway experience, but 40 years in electrical engineering, if anyone asked me to offer an opinion on a project like this (i.e. a 30 year old design as a base) I'd say it will end in tears.