"Portsmouth Direct" line

[pitdiver]

Pardon my ignorance but what is the "Portsmouth Direct?. I live in Nottinghamshire so lack knowledge of that part of the network. Is there a "Portsmouth Indirect?
Thanks

 

[Carlisle]

The Portsmouth Direct is from Havant to Woking then London via Guildford whereas a longer thus indirect route could be on a Portsmouth-London train via Fareham, Horsham or Haywards Heath.

 

[pitdiver]

The Portsmouth Direct is from Havant to Woking then London via Guildford whereas a longer thus indirect route could be via Fareham, Horsham or Haywards Heath.

Thanks for that now I know for future reference.

 

[jfollows]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth_Direct_line might be interesting reading

 

[swt_passenger]

The Portsmouth Direct is from Havant to Woking then London via Guildford whereas an indirect route could be via Fareham, Horsham or Haywards Heath.

Before the direct route via Guildford and Petersfield to Havant was finished, they wouldn’t have used the term “indirect” of course, the route to Portsmouth through what is now considered Southern territory was just the normal route.

But wikipedia, (as mentioned), has a fairly detailed history, the 2nd map you come to (alongside the subheading “Woking to Guildford”), shows how the situation developed after the direct route was finished in 1859. The dates indicate that the first route was the long way round via Brighton, the earliest LSWR route was to Gosport for Portsmouth. The Arun Valley routes came later.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Both the London & South Western and the London Brighton & South Coast Railways already served Portsmouth, via Eastleigh (initially to Gosport) and Chichester respectively, from quite early in their histories (1841 and 1847 respectively). The "Portsmouth Direct" was originally a separate, speculative enterprise, promoted in the expectation (borne out by events) that there would be a bidding war between the existing companies to buy them out, as neither would want the other gaining the advantage of a more direct and faster route between London and Portsmouth. The South Eastern was also courted, as it had a route to Guildford via Redhill and the North Downs Line.

It opened in 1859. A flaw in the scheme was that, whichever company won, it would need co-operation from the other as the LBSCR had no other access to Woking and Guildford (although a connection from Epsom was envisaged if the LBSCR had won) and the LSWR would rely on the LBSCR between Havant and Portsmouth

 

[DynamicSpirit]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth_Direct_line might be interesting reading

Interesting history. I must admit to some surprise that the railway companies initially chose to build to Southampton and Chichester rather than directly to Portsmouth: My knowledge of history is sketchy but as I recall Portsmouth was an important naval base, which I would have thought would have made it rather more important than Southampton in the 1830s/40s for attracting a railway to London? And a quick check at 1850-ish OS maps seems to suggest that Portsmouth was the bigger town at the time.

At any rate, the description in that Wikipedia article of rival companies dismantling tracks to stop each others' trains from passing, with the suggestion of possible physical violence between staff of the two companies certainly shows how far the railway - for all its faults - has come during that time!

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting history. I must admit to some surprise that the railway companies initially chose to build to Southampton and Chichester rather than directly to Portsmouth: My knowledge of history is sketchy but as I recall Portsmouth was an important naval base, which I would have thought would have made it rather more important than Southampton in the 1830s/40s for attracting a railway to London? And a quick check at 1850-ish OS maps seems to suggest that Portsmouth was the bigger town at the time.

At any rate, the description in that Wikipedia article of rival companies dismantling tracks to stop each others' trains from passing, with the suggestion of possible physical violence between staff of the two companies certainly shows how far the railway - for all its faults - has come during that time!

One of the old stories is that Portsea Island still was an offshore island in the early to mid 1800s, and fortified against invasion from the landward side, and the Admiralty of the day would not initially allow the railway access. When they were eventually allowed to penetrate the defences in about 1846 a moveable barrier was installed so the island could still be secured from attack.

 

[30907]

Interesting history. I must admit to some surprise that the railway companies initially chose to build to Southampton and Chichester rather than directly to Portsmouth: My knowledge of history is sketchy but as I recall Portsmouth was an important naval base, which I would have thought would have made it rather more important than Southampton in the 1830s/40s for attracting a railway to London? And a quick check at 1850-ish OS maps seems to suggest that Portsmouth was the bigger town at the time.

Southampton was a commercial port and plans for its expansion were part of the rationale. Portsmouth didn't have that potential, as the Navy occupied it (and was further!), though the Gosport branch followed very quickly.

swtpassenger has confirmed my memory about the Admiralty's view which ISTR was a reason for Gosport being chosen.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Interesting history. I must admit to some surprise that the railway companies initially chose to build to Southampton and Chichester rather than directly to Portsmouth:

The early lines followed routes which avoided steep gradients, hence the approach to Portsmouth from Brighton along the coast, or the London & Southampton using the Itchen Valley. The later "Direct" took a more steeply graded route, taking advantage of improvements in locomotive performance.

You can see that as well with other routes - it is not a coincidence that the London & Birmingham followed the same route as the Roman Watling Street, the A5, and the Grand Union Canal, all taking advantage of the Watford Gap to cross the watershed between the Thames basin and the Trent basin. The Midland Main Line, built 40 years later, takes a much more steeply graded route over Sharnbrook summit

 

[DelW]

The South Eastern was also courted, as it had a route to Guildford via Redhill and the North Downs Line.

There still exists a physical reminder of that, in the form of an embankment which would have carried an east <> south-west chord at Shalford linking the Redhill and Portsmouth lines. It would have turned Shalford into a triangular junction.

There's no sign that the required bridge over the River Wey was ever built, and the unused embankment now carries a footpath.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

There was also the "Direct Portsmouth Railway", which I believe was the LBSCR's unbuilt mainline to Portsmouth.

 

[Helvellyn]

The Meon Valley Railway was built as a shorter route to Gosport via Alton rather than via Eastleigh but it was always single line despite provision to be double track throughout. The fact it was a pre-Beeching closure shows how much of a basket case it was.

 

[Grecian 1998]

The Cliftonville curve from Hove which avoids Brighton didn't exist until 1879, so I assume Portsmouth - Victoria trains would have had to run into Brighton and reverse. A rather time-consuming route, and one which didn't even avoid heavy earthworks given there are several lengthy tunnels on the BML.

It's a shame the modern Meon Valley Trail doesn't take in the two tunnels at West Meon and Privett. AIUI the line was built to mainline standards although never double tracked - probably be quite impressive to see two sizeable railway tunnels in the middle of the Hampshire countryside. There's a few photos on Google Images taken around 1968 showing the tunnels after closure, but before they were sealed off.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The Cliftonville curve from Hove which avoids Brighton didn't exist until 1879, so I assume Portsmouth - Victoria trains would have had to run into Brighton and reverse. A rather time-consuming route, and one which didn't even avoid heavy earthworks given there are several lengthy tunnels on the BML.

They must have done - certainly Portsmouth to London trains existed before 1879, as one of the trains involved in the Clayton Tunnel disiater (1861) had come from Portsmouth. The layout at Brighton may have made reversal there easier than it would be now. In the current layout only platform 3 has access to/from both the west coastway and the London routes, and the former only from the southern end of the platform so only 4-car trains can use it.

Given the line to Brighton already existed, no further heavy earthworks were needed to extend it to Portsmouth along the coast.

 

[dastocks]

The Cliftonville curve from Hove which avoids Brighton didn't exist until 1879, so I assume Portsmouth - Victoria trains would have had to run into Brighton and reverse. A rather time-consuming route, and one which didn't even avoid heavy earthworks given there are several lengthy tunnels on the BML.

The LBSCR route from London to Portsmouth ran via Epsom and Horsham as described here:

Portsmouth line - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

According to the article it wasn't until 1978 that Central Division services were re-routed via Gatwick. Had this happened earlier I think it's very possible the line between Dorking and Horsham would have closed in the 1960s.

 

[paul1609]

One of the old stories is that Portsea Island still was an offshore island in the early to mid 1800s, and fortified against invasion from the landward side, and the Admiralty of the day would not initially allow the railway access. When they were eventually allowed to penetrate the defences in about 1846 a moveable barrier was installed so the island could still be secured from attack.

Portsea Island is still an offshore island to this day although the channel between the Island and the mainland is significantly changed by land reclamation. The railway still breaches the defences just south of Portscreek Bridge. Portsmouth is the UKs only island City. https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8319475,-1.0563926,62a,35y,40.83h,45.06t/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

 

[Trainguy34]

Portsmouth is the UKs only island City.

So, in European Terms, Portsmouth is an island city in an island country?

 

[paul1609]

The LBSCR route from London to Portsmouth ran via Epsom and Horsham as described here:

Portsmouth line - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

According to the article it wasn't until 1978 that Central Division services were re-routed via Gatwick. Had this happened earlier I think it's very possible the line between Dorking and Horsham would have closed in the 1960s.

The Arun Valley peak services didn't call at Gatwick and still ran via Dorking until the mid 1980s when they were diverted to call at East Croydon which was a growing office district at the time. To maintain the arrival time at Victoria in the morning they ran non stop from Crawley to East Croydon then Victoria.

 

[Gloster]

So, in European Terms, Portsmouth is an island city in an island country?

Portsea Island has the largest population of any wholly British island after the mainland, although the Isle of Wight is catching up. (There is b. all else to do here in winter except breed.)

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Portsea Island has the largest population of any wholly British island after the mainland, although the Isle of Wight is catching up. (There is b. all else to do here in winter except breed.)

There’s worse things to do!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Portsea Island has the largest population of any wholly British island after the mainland, although the Isle of Wight is catching up. (There is b. all else to do here in winter except breed.)

So I guess that means that in a couple of years' time there'll be lots of little Glosters posting to railforums

 

[Gloster]

So I guess that means that in a couple of years' time there'll be lots of little Glosters posting to railforums

Not at my age.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Pardon my ignorance but what is the "Portsmouth Direct?. I live in Nottinghamshire so lack knowledge of that part of the network. Is there a "Portsmouth Indirect?
Thanks

Although the Portsmouth Direct Line is, these days, mostly Desiro EMUs, there is still a bit of loco hauled traffic toward the south end. This thread gives a taster:

Loco hauled around Havant

A summer "challenge" deep in SWR/Southern land - Photograph loco-hauled, or light, services within within my locality. Focus is freight workings or uncommon traffic. I'll add to this thread during the year.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[D6130]

It's a shame the modern Meon Valley Trail doesn't take in the two tunnels at West Meon and Privett. AIUI the line was built to mainline standards although never double tracked - probably be quite impressive to see two sizeable railway tunnels in the middle of the Hampshire countryside.

....not to mention the tall steel viaduct - subsequently dismantled - straddling the village of West Meon....Meldon in miniature if you will!

 

[Helvellyn]

....not to mention the tall steel viaduct - subsequently dismantled - straddling the village of West Meon....Meldon in miniature if you will!

In a parallel universe the Mid-Hants is the Meon Valley Railway, with mainline interchanges at Alton and Fareham, whilst Alton-Winchester still open as part of the SWR network.

 

[snowball]

Portsmouth is the UKs only island City.

Though Ely is a city and in the Isle of Ely.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Though Ely is a city and in the Isle of Ely.

Honorary mention to Margate and Ramsgate on the Isle of Thanet (no longer an isle as the channel separating it from the mainland was filled in during the middle ages). I'm sure they must have a population similar to that on Portsea Island.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

In a parallel universe the Mid-Hants is the Meon Valley Railway, with mainline interchanges at Alton and Fareham, whilst Alton-Winchester still open as part of the SWR network.

I thought the connection with Winchester was closed and lost years ago.

 

[Rescars]

The Arun Valley peak services didn't call at Gatwick and still ran via Dorking until the mid 1980s when they were diverted to call at East Croydon which was a growing office district at the time. To maintain the arrival time at Victoria in the morning they ran non stop from Crawley to East Croydon then Victoria.

Have there been any regular services with first class seats calling at Sutton or Dorking North since the Arun Valley trains were rerouted?