pitdiver
Member
Pardon my ignorance but what is the "Portsmouth Direct?. I live in Nottinghamshire so lack knowledge of that part of the network. Is there a "Portsmouth Indirect?
Thanks
Thanks
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Thanks for that now I know for future reference.The Portsmouth Direct is from Havant to Woking then London via Guildford whereas a longer thus indirect route could be via Fareham, Horsham or Haywards Heath.
Before the direct route via Guildford and Petersfield to Havant was finished, they wouldn’t have used the term “indirect” of course, the route to Portsmouth through what is now considered Southern territory was just the normal route.The Portsmouth Direct is from Havant to Woking then London via Guildford whereas an indirect route could be via Fareham, Horsham or Haywards Heath.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmouth_Direct_line might be interesting reading
One of the old stories is that Portsea Island still was an offshore island in the early to mid 1800s, and fortified against invasion from the landward side, and the Admiralty of the day would not initially allow the railway access. When they were eventually allowed to penetrate the defences in about 1846 a moveable barrier was installed so the island could still be secured from attack.Interesting history. I must admit to some surprise that the railway companies initially chose to build to Southampton and Chichester rather than directly to Portsmouth: My knowledge of history is sketchy but as I recall Portsmouth was an important naval base, which I would have thought would have made it rather more important than Southampton in the 1830s/40s for attracting a railway to London? And a quick check at 1850-ish OS maps seems to suggest that Portsmouth was the bigger town at the time.
At any rate, the description in that Wikipedia article of rival companies dismantling tracks to stop each others' trains from passing, with the suggestion of possible physical violence between staff of the two companies certainly shows how far the railway - for all its faults - has come during that time!
Southampton was a commercial port and plans for its expansion were part of the rationale. Portsmouth didn't have that potential, as the Navy occupied it (and was further!), though the Gosport branch followed very quickly.Interesting history. I must admit to some surprise that the railway companies initially chose to build to Southampton and Chichester rather than directly to Portsmouth: My knowledge of history is sketchy but as I recall Portsmouth was an important naval base, which I would have thought would have made it rather more important than Southampton in the 1830s/40s for attracting a railway to London? And a quick check at 1850-ish OS maps seems to suggest that Portsmouth was the bigger town at the time.
The early lines followed routes which avoided steep gradients, hence the approach to Portsmouth from Brighton along the coast, or the London & Southampton using the Itchen Valley. The later "Direct" took a more steeply graded route, taking advantage of improvements in locomotive performance.Interesting history. I must admit to some surprise that the railway companies initially chose to build to Southampton and Chichester rather than directly to Portsmouth:
There still exists a physical reminder of that, in the form of an embankment which would have carried an east <> south-west chord at Shalford linking the Redhill and Portsmouth lines. It would have turned Shalford into a triangular junction.The South Eastern was also courted, as it had a route to Guildford via Redhill and the North Downs Line.
They must have done - certainly Portsmouth to London trains existed before 1879, as one of the trains involved in the Clayton Tunnel disiater (1861) had come from Portsmouth. The layout at Brighton may have made reversal there easier than it would be now. In the current layout only platform 3 has access to/from both the west coastway and the London routes, and the former only from the southern end of the platform so only 4-car trains can use it.The Cliftonville curve from Hove which avoids Brighton didn't exist until 1879, so I assume Portsmouth - Victoria trains would have had to run into Brighton and reverse. A rather time-consuming route, and one which didn't even avoid heavy earthworks given there are several lengthy tunnels on the BML.
The LBSCR route from London to Portsmouth ran via Epsom and Horsham as described here:The Cliftonville curve from Hove which avoids Brighton didn't exist until 1879, so I assume Portsmouth - Victoria trains would have had to run into Brighton and reverse. A rather time-consuming route, and one which didn't even avoid heavy earthworks given there are several lengthy tunnels on the BML.
Portsea Island is still an offshore island to this day although the channel between the Island and the mainland is significantly changed by land reclamation. The railway still breaches the defences just south of Portscreek Bridge. Portsmouth is the UKs only island City. https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8319475,-1.0563926,62a,35y,40.83h,45.06t/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttuOne of the old stories is that Portsea Island still was an offshore island in the early to mid 1800s, and fortified against invasion from the landward side, and the Admiralty of the day would not initially allow the railway access. When they were eventually allowed to penetrate the defences in about 1846 a moveable barrier was installed so the island could still be secured from attack.
So, in European Terms, Portsmouth is an island city in an island country?Portsmouth is the UKs only island City.
The Arun Valley peak services didn't call at Gatwick and still ran via Dorking until the mid 1980s when they were diverted to call at East Croydon which was a growing office district at the time. To maintain the arrival time at Victoria in the morning they ran non stop from Crawley to East Croydon then Victoria.The LBSCR route from London to Portsmouth ran via Epsom and Horsham as described here:
According to the article it wasn't until 1978 that Central Division services were re-routed via Gatwick. Had this happened earlier I think it's very possible the line between Dorking and Horsham would have closed in the 1960s.Portsmouth line - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
So, in European Terms, Portsmouth is an island city in an island country?
There’s worse things to do!Portsea Island has the largest population of any wholly British island after the mainland, although the Isle of Wight is catching up. (There is b. all else to do here in winter except breed.)
Portsea Island has the largest population of any wholly British island after the mainland, although the Isle of Wight is catching up. (There is b. all else to do here in winter except breed.)
So I guess that means that in a couple of years' time there'll be lots of little Glosters posting to railforums
Although the Portsmouth Direct Line is, these days, mostly Desiro EMUs, there is still a bit of loco hauled traffic toward the south end. This thread gives a taster:Pardon my ignorance but what is the "Portsmouth Direct?. I live in Nottinghamshire so lack knowledge of that part of the network. Is there a "Portsmouth Indirect?
Thanks
....not to mention the tall steel viaduct - subsequently dismantled - straddling the village of West Meon....Meldon in miniature if you will!It's a shame the modern Meon Valley Trail doesn't take in the two tunnels at West Meon and Privett. AIUI the line was built to mainline standards although never double tracked - probably be quite impressive to see two sizeable railway tunnels in the middle of the Hampshire countryside.
In a parallel universe the Mid-Hants is the Meon Valley Railway, with mainline interchanges at Alton and Fareham, whilst Alton-Winchester still open as part of the SWR network.....not to mention the tall steel viaduct - subsequently dismantled - straddling the village of West Meon....Meldon in miniature if you will!
Though Ely is a city and in the Isle of Ely.Portsmouth is the UKs only island City.
Though Ely is a city and in the Isle of Ely.
I thought the connection with Winchester was closed and lost years ago.In a parallel universe the Mid-Hants is the Meon Valley Railway, with mainline interchanges at Alton and Fareham, whilst Alton-Winchester still open as part of the SWR network.
Have there been any regular services with first class seats calling at Sutton or Dorking North since the Arun Valley trains were rerouted?The Arun Valley peak services didn't call at Gatwick and still ran via Dorking until the mid 1980s when they were diverted to call at East Croydon which was a growing office district at the time. To maintain the arrival time at Victoria in the morning they ran non stop from Crawley to East Croydon then Victoria.