Possible route reopenings

[Donny Dave]

the 'direct trains effect' is huge, especially given the time saving on an infrequent service, and competition from buses and cars. Reinstating Driffield-Market Weighton would also form part of the reinstated Driffield-Selby line which would give MW, Driffield, Bridlington & Beverley direct services into Leeds, as well as York and Hull.

Currently 2tph Bridlington - Driffield - Beverley - Hull
1tph (some gaps though) Hull - Selby - York
1tph Hull - Selby - Leeds
2tph Hull - Goole - Doncaster
8tpd Hull - Selby - Doncaster (or is it 9?)
(Also at Selby, you get connections onto the Yorkshire Grand Tour service for additional links to Leeds)
2tph Proposed Hull - Beverley - Market Weighton - York

Not exactly infrequent ....

Re-instating Driffield - Market Weighton will not give Beverley a direct service to Leeds however, as that line leaves the Drifflield - Beverley route just after the station and cuts across some empty countryside to Market Weighton, same again from there to Selby.

 

[Waverley125]

true.

But it would still open up some very beneficial route opportunities that currently do not exist.

For instance:

YORK-Stamford Bridge-Pocklington-Market Weighton-BEVERLEY

YORK-Stamford Bridge-Pocklington-Market Weighton-Driffield-BRIDLINGTON

BRIDLINGTON-Driffield-Market Weighton-Selby-Garforth-LEEDS


between them SB, Pock, MW, Driffield & Brid have a population of nearly 75,000. Giving these towns services into York & Leeds, as well as, for some of them, Hull, we be massively beneficial to their economies, will take cars off some very congested roads, and will allow York, Leeds & Hull to further benefit as economic centres.

 

[Ploughman]

You could also do York - Bridlington via Seamer.

 

[daniel3982]

I was on one of the 6 daily York to Brid buses the other week and it had about 8 people on, York to Brid is never going to be a viable route, York to Hull via Beverley (with a change for Brid there) would be.

 

[AlanFry1]

I feel that they should open rail lines to areas not currenly served by the Railway, but were in the past

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_towns_with_no_railway_station

I am one of those people who thought that the Beeching Axe was a bad idea

On the other hand I am not so keen on reopening routes that are served by currenly open lines (sadly that includes the Great Central)

 

[IanXC]

I was on one of the 6 daily York to Brid buses the other week and it had about 8 people on, York to Brid is never going to be a viable route, York to Hull via Beverley (with a change for Brid there) would be.

Yup. Just compare that with the Hull-Beverley-York buses on the A1079. EYMS have also recently launched a direct (ie not calling at Pocklington) route from Market Weighton to York, plus there's plenty of Pocklington services, and 4 per hour from Stamford Bridge.

 

[bluenoxid]

just going to concentrate on the North East England part, as I can't say with any great authority or experience about the rest of the country.

[1] The road between the 2 towns is heavily congested at all times of day (it can take an hour or more to do the 12 (?) miles. Northern ran a 156 from Skipton - Colne via the shortest route a few years ago as a special. IIRC it took 5 1/2 hours ....

What on earth were you doing to take an hour on that route.

It can take extra time during peak hour but that is either due to an incident or a lot of traffic through both towns. Apart from Pendle to Leeds, all of the other traffic flows are faster on preexisting rail routes.

The Pennines bus takes just over 40 minutes to do it and that serves Earby and Barnoldswick which SELRAP will bypass in their bid to get people through the area as fast as possible.

The railway to nowhere is what it amounts to. Road widening, bus priority in Colne and safety improvements would be better use of the money that SELRAP plan to squander on this.

I challenge this project because I don't think it is appropriate to meet the needs of local people who need more and better connections, which this link combined with the existing network will not provide.

The west facing junction at Rose Grove does not help matters at all with Manchester and Leeds bound services approaching from the east

 

[Donny Dave]

What on earth were you doing to take an hour on that route.

Trying to get to Colne for 09:15 to make a delivery, after making a delivery at Skipton.

 

[John S2]

I challenge this project because I don't think it is appropriate to meet the needs of local people who need more and better connections, which this link combined with the existing network will not provide.

I think Colne-Skipton has a strong case, although I don't expect it be reopened anytime soon. The main benefits are to join up the populations on each side of the gap, not to improve transport within the gap. Blackburn/Burnley/Nelson/Colne needs to be joined up with Skipton/Keighley/Bingley/Shipley.

 

[bluenoxid]

How often do you do this delivery?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think Colne-Skipton has a strong case, although I don't expect it be reopened anytime soon. The main benefits are to join up the populations on each side of the gap, not to improve transport within the gap. Blackburn/Burnley/Nelson/Colne needs to be joined up with Skipton/Keighley/Bingley/Shipley.

No they don't. Both areas are deprived (Skipton is probably the poshest but there are no big employers bringing lots of money in) and need better connections with areas such as Manchester and Leeds. Linking one deprived area to another is not going to generate any sustainable growth.

 

[tbtc]

I think Colne-Skipton has a strong case, although I don't expect it be reopened anytime soon. The main benefits are to join up the populations on each side of the gap, not to improve transport within the gap. Blackburn/Burnley/Nelson/Colne needs to be joined up with Skipton/Keighley/Bingley/Shipley.

There's already a regular service from Leeds and Bradford to Burnley and Blackburn.

I honestly don't think that there's enough demand for Colne to Shipley or from Keighley to Nelson to justify a new line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How often do you do this delivery?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


No they don't. Both areas are deprived (Skipton is probably the poshest but there are no big employers bringing lots of money in) and need better connections with areas such as Manchester and Leeds. Linking one deprived area to another is not going to generate any sustainable growth.

Agreed - the proposed Burnley - Rochdale - Manchester service (when the curve at Tod is opened) will make a much bigger difference than the SELRAP proposals.

 

[JohnCarlson]

Yeah the Stillington line is still used by freight traffic. The Leamside line should definitely be reopened as a heavy rail route, although running trains from Tyne Dock over the route would require a reversal at Pelaw which recently stopped being the practice for the regular GBRf coal traffic from Tyne Dock with the reopening of the south curve at Boldon colliery.

]I did Stillington in a diverted 125 last year and it seemed fine.

I might consider running Middlesbrough services via Stillington then to ferry hill then on via the ecml to NCL as this would give a very fast link. But I guess capacity on the ECML might be a problem.

John

 

[Bevan Price]

Northern-centric much?

Here's some more closed or freight-only southern lines that would be useful:
Totton to Fawley
Brockenhurst to Wimborne (via Ringwood)
Bordon spur
Pewsey to Holt Junction (via Devizes) as an extension of Bedwyn line services
Portishead branch as an extension of Avonmouth services
Henbury loop
Stansted Airport to Braintree
Smallbrook Junction to Newport and/or Cowes
(ambitious) Andover to Swindon (via Marlborough)
Alton to Winchester

Some comments:
Totton to Fawley:
Fawley, population about 14500
Marchwood 5500
Possibly not quite large enough to support a passenger service.

Pewsey - Devizes - Holt.
Devizes population 11300. Any service would ideally need to run through to Bath & Bristol, but with no other significant population centres on the route, I think Devizes is too small to hope for a restored railway service.

Portishead branch . With a population of about 22000, Portishead branch has a fairly good case. Problem for commuters is that Bristol Temple Meads is not ideally sited for the city centre shopping & business areas. Best solution might be a tramway running via city centre.

Stansted Airport - Braintree. Case depends on how much traffic is there from East Anglia to the Airport - and a problem is that the junction at Witham is in the wrong direction for through trains from Norwich / Ipswich / Colchester to the Braintree line.

Andover to Swindon.
Not much chance, with Marlborough (8000) and Ludgershall (3700) being the only significant places on a longish route.

Cowes - Newport (IOW) - Ryde. A bit silly to close it in my opinion, but probably not enough population to get money for reinstatement. (Cowes 9000 or about 15000 dependent on source of figures*, Newport 24000, Ryde 30000)

(* either http://www.wightonline.co.uk/islandinfo/population.html
or wikipedia)

Ventnor IOW (5900) - also silly to close this section of line, but probably now considered too small to support reopening.

Alton to Winchester. Again, a bit silly to close the southern section, but apart from cost, I read somewhere that line capacity at Winchester Junction would be a problem if it reopened.

Bordon (Hants). Population about 15000. Maybe one for the future if the population increases significantly.

Henbury (Bristol). Population about 9500. Are you thinking of a Bristol - Avonmouth - Henbury - Bristol loop service ? With another 12000 at Avonmouth, there may not be enough people to support such a service - another possible candidate for conversion to a tramway (if any freight services can be accommodated) ?

 

[Railcar B]

Some comments:
Totton to Fawley:
Fawley, population about 14500
Marchwood 5500
Possibly not quite large enough to support a passenger service.

For Totton-Fawley you've omitted the largest centre of population - Hythe, which with a population of just under 20,000 doubles the figures for the line which you suggested. Now there's a much better case!

 

[yorksrob]

Alton to Winchester. Again, a bit silly to close the southern section, but apart from cost, I read somewhere that line capacity at Winchester Junction would be a problem if it reopened.

It might be worth installing a grade seperated junction in this case.

 

[LE Greys]

Stansted Airport - Braintree. Case depends on how much traffic is there from East Anglia to the Airport - and a problem is that the junction at Witham is in the wrong direction for through trains from Norwich / Ipswich / Colchester to the Braintree line.

There's enough traffic to support a coach link, and I reckon rail would grab at least half of that, plus a lot of new traffic from cars. Also add Great Dunmow, with a population of 8,400.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Frome-Radstock has been mentioned in the past. I'm not sure there's enough support for it, but is it possible to go right through, divert to Bristol Airport, then end up somewhere around Nailsea & Blackwell?

 

[Jonny]

There might be a minor snag on the Durham Elvet route - a section through Hetton is variously industrial buildings, parkland, bridleway and across the middle of a farmer's field. It could be done, but with some complications and that's before the gradients come into play.

 

[billio]

I wonder if any attention is being given to re-opening to passenger services using the ex-L&Y route from Miles Platting to Ashburys, including the disused curve into Piccadilly. This is currently a freight route.

A new station close to the Manchester City ground and the other local sports facilities would be very useful. At the moment you have to go to central Manchester and then find a way out again. Even when the Metrolink line to Ashton is opened, that line is likely to be heavily loaded when football matches and sporting events are taking place.

If the old viaduct to Ardwick and into Piccadilly is refurbished, TPE trains from Yorkshire to the airport (that reverse in Piccadilly) could be routed this way rather than via Guide Bridge.

Otherwise electrified services from Glossop could run into Victoria and beyond. The extra electrification would only be a few miles more. Some services from Marple and further east could run through Victoria. Although in both cases the mileage is greater, providing access to the north side of Manchester at Victoria is likely to be quicker than travelling to Piccadilly and using Metrolink. It would also give a boost to development on that side of the city

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I wonder if any attention is being given to re-opening to passenger services using the ex-L&Y route from Miles Platting to Ashburys, including the disused curve into Piccadilly. This is currently a freight route.

A new station close to the Manchester City ground and the other local sports facilities would be very useful. At the moment you have to go to central Manchester and then find a way out again. Even when the Metrolink line to Ashton is opened, that line is likely to be heavily loaded when football matches and sporting events are taking place.

If the old viaduct to Ardwick and into Piccadilly is refurbished, TPE trains from Yorkshire to the airport (that reverse in Piccadilly) could be routed this way rather than via Guide Bridge.

Otherwise electrified services from Glossop could run into Victoria and beyond. The extra electrification would only be a few miles more. Some services from Marple and further east could run through Victoria. Although in both cases the mileage is greater, providing access to the north side of Manchester at Victoria is likely to be quicker than travelling to Piccadilly and using Metrolink. It would also give a boost to development on that side of the city

Does the Northern Hub document not state that trains from the East would go via Piccadilly and trains from the West to Victoria?

 

[northwichcat]

Does the Northern Hub document not state that trains from the East would go via Piccadilly and trains from the West to Victoria?

The plan for services from Leeds-Manchester is:

2tph North TPE in to Manchester Airport entering Manchester via Victoria and using the Ordsall Chord *
2tph North TPE in to Victoria *
2tph semi-fast in to Piccadilly with calls at Dewsbury and Stalybridge

* No Dewsbury and Stalybridge calls on these services

Liverpool would have fast Manchester services on both lines in to both Victoria and Piccadilly but the headline Liverpool-Manchester-Newcastle service will go via Chat Moss and Victoria.

Calder Vale will continue to go to Victoria with 1 or 2 extended to the Airport via the Ordsall Chord. If only 1 is extended it's likely a Blackburn service will go to the Airport via Victoria instead.

Marple and Glossop services have no firm plans with Victoria services being considered but by no means certain.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

The plan for services from Leeds-Manchester is:

2tph North TPE in to Manchester Airport entering Manchester via Victoria and using the Ordsall Chord *
2tph North TPE in to Victoria *
2tph semi-fast in to Piccadilly with calls at Dewsbury and Stalybridge

* No Dewsbury and Stalybridge calls on these services

Liverpool would have fast Manchester services on both lines in to both Victoria and Piccadilly but the headline Liverpool-Manchester-Newcastle service will go via Chat Moss and Victoria.

Calder Vale will continue to go to Victoria with 1 or 2 extended to the Airport via the Ordsall Chord. If only 1 is extended it's likely a Blackburn service will go to the Airport via Victoria instead.

Marple and Glossop services have no firm plans with Victoria services being considered but by no means certain.

Thank you for the information. Do you have any idea what will be happening to the ATW service from Chester/North Wales? Currently runs to Picc. I am hoping that it will run to Vic in the future.

 

[Waverley125]

the idea of re-opening the old Ardwick-Miles platting line would be a good one. You'd then have the option to run services from the west through Victoria into the Piccadilly terminating platforms, and you'd have the option to also run a 'Loop' service around Manchester, potentially including the airport, something like:

Piccadilly, Ardwick, Eastlands, Miles Platting, Victoria, Salford Central, Deansgate, Oxford Road, Picadilly, Mauldeth Road, Burnage, East Didsbury, Gatley, Heald Green, Airport.

 

[daniel3982]

Thank you for the information. Do you have any idea what will be happening to the ATW service from Chester/North Wales? Currently runs to Picc. I am hoping that it will run to Vic in the future.

Would be good to see it paired up with a service east of the Pennines. How about Scarborough so keeping a diesel service both sides of the pennines paired rather than running under wires all the way to Liverpool.

 

[matchmaker]

Fantasy I know, but Dunblane - Crianlarich via Callander is a superb scenic route.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Would be good to see it paired up with a service east of the Pennines. How about Scarborough so keeping a diesel service both sides of the pennines paired rather than running under wires all the way to Liverpool.

It's a good idea. Victoria as an inter regional hub for the North with Piccadilly as the national link for long distance travel.

 

[LE Greys]

Fantasy I know, but Dunblane - Crianlarich via Callander is a superb scenic route.

More fantasy would be Connel Ferry-Ballachulish and Spean Bridge-Fort Augustus as part of a through Inverness-Fort William-Oban route. Currently, the fastest time by rail from Inverness to Fort Bill is seven hours via Glasgow as opposed to two hours by coach. If a rail journey could cut it to 90 minutes (pushing it a little) then it would easily be competitive. Continuing to Oban makes sense, although there are two sea lochs and a town to negotiate. The eastern half of the Callander & Oban would do something similar for Stirling-Oban times (currently 4 hours by train or coach via Glasgow) and might be slightly easier. 3 hours puts it within day return range. It might take an hour off Inverness-Oban as well (3¾ hours by coach, 6¾ hours by train via Glasgow).

 

[route:oxford]

The eastern half of the Callander & Oban would do something similar for Stirling-Oban times (currently 4 hours by train or coach via Glasgow) and might be slightly easier. 3 hours puts it within day return range. It might take an hour off Inverness-Oban as well (3¾ hours by coach, 6¾ hours by train via Glasgow).

A real shame that the the trackbed was built up in Dunblane (and Doune).

These days, it would probably only take about 8 minutes to get from Dunblane to Callander by train if it were still open. So a "fast" service from Glasgow to Callander, first stop Stirling, would probably take 45 minutes.

Not sure how long it took from Callander to Oban though.

 

[billio]

Would be good to see it paired up with a service east of the Pennines. How about Scarborough so keeping a diesel service both sides of the pennines paired rather than running under wires all the way to Liverpool.

The existing hourly connection from the TPE service into the Manchester-Llandudno service is quite a good one. The problem is that this service stops at all stations and hence it is a bit slow. When TPE moves to Victoria it is essential this connection is maintained.

However, it would be nice to have a few, faster trains from Yorkshire and the NE to the North Wales coast. It's a devil of a journey by car, motorway most of the way, but potentially "clogged up" motorways. At the moment there is a 50mph speed limit on almost the entire West Yorkshire section of the M62.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

At the moment there is a 50mph speed limit on almost the entire West Yorkshire section of the M62.

Very off topic I know but that speed limit has decreased Westbound journey times, at peak, quite considerably.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

As many of you are discussing proposals around Manchester :

has the future of the Mayfield terminus been decided ?

Various schemes have been put forward, including re-opening to absorb some of the strain on Piccadilly.