Pre-Nationisation coaching stock in blue and grey.

[Ashley Hill]

I’m aware that several LNER buffet cars survived into the 1970s carrying this livery,but did any other pre-nationalisation passenger stock survive to wear blue and grey?

 

[Mr. SW]

Some late period LMS Porthole Brakes, and some LMS and LNER sleepers. And some LMS, LNER (design) EMUs.

 

[D6130]

I’m aware that several LNER buffet cars survived into the 1970s carrying this livery,but did any other pre-nationalisation passenger stock survive to wear blue and grey?

A few LMS-designed, but BR-built 57' carriages were repainted in blue and grey in the late 1960s. I recall seeing them on West Coast reliefs occasionally, but I think they were all gone by about 1970.

I believe that a very small number of SR Bulleid-designed vehicles also took the colours....but I don't recall ever ahving seen any of them.

 

[WesternLancer]

Did any SR emus carry it? Maybe they did go to BR blue but not blue and grey.

 

[Taunton]

The LMS late 1930s electrics on Merseyside lasted right through the all-blue era, and well into blue & grey times after the policy changed around 1980.

The various LMS-design hauled coaches and sleepers which got the livery were almost wholly the last of the production, which had run on for several years into BR times.

 

[LUYMun]

Did any SR emus carry it? Maybe they did go to BR blue but not blue and grey.

The Brighton Belle EMUs did carry B&G in their twilight years.

 

[Rescars]

Did any SR emus carry it? Maybe they did go to BR blue but not blue and grey.

The 4SUBs were painted blue. I don't recall seeing any in blue and grey.

 

[Taunton]

The EPBs went to blue/grey. Most were post-1950 build, but some had trailers rewired from SUB units, whose building crossed nationalisation time; someone will know if any of these pre-1948 Ones were in sets in the new colours.

 

[Rescars]

The 485s and 486s on the Isle of Wight wore blue and grey for a while. They dated from 1923, so were almost pre-amalgamation, never mind pre-nationalisation.

The EPBs went to blue/grey. Most were post-1950 build, but some had trailers rewired from SUB units, whose building crossed nationalisation time; someone will know if any of these pre-1948 Ones were in sets in the new colours.

Due to the Southern's very modern views about recycling, some of the 4EPB carriage underframes were very much older than the bodies they carried. This was a matter which gained some publicity following the accident at Cannon Street in 1991.

 

[507020]

I’m aware that several LNER buffet cars survived into the 1970s carrying this livery,but did any other pre-nationalisation passenger stock survive to wear blue and grey?

I’ve noticed that Gresley buffets were famously the last pre-nationalisation hauled coaches on BR, with Sir Nigel’s vision of varnished teak painted over in blue and grey and the art deco interior ripped out for an oppressive 1960s one matching Mk1s, but I’m not sure blue and grey is the best distinction for surviving vehicles.

When was the general stock of Gresley non-buffet vehicles, or those of other companies actually withdrawn from passenger service? Apparently the arrival of DMUs displaced them earlier than expected. I’ve seen preserved Stanier vehicles with NSE moquette, suggesting they ran peak extras into the 1980s.

L&YR 1474 Hughes taper-end Brake Third, built 1910, was for some reason the last L&YR coach in use on BR and that was pre-grouping, but I don’t know when this ended or in what livery.

The LMS late 1930s electrics on Merseyside lasted right through the all-blue era, and well into blue & grey times after the policy changed around 1980.

The various LMS-design hauled coaches and sleepers which got the livery were almost wholly the last of the production, which had run on for several years into BR times.

502s except 2 vehicles were long gone by 1980 but carried blue and grey so the policy of no grey on multiple units must have changed earlier than that. 503s continued to 1985, awaiting 455/7s delivered in blue and grey to displace the 508s diverted to the South Western, so blue and grey was still current.

The 485s and 486s on the Isle of Wight wore blue and grey for a while. They dated from 1923, so were almost pre-amalgamation, never mind pre-nationalisation.

These were 1923 standard stock, of the London Underground but nothing to do with BR until purchased for IOW electrification, so nothing to do with the grouping either. They were however 10 years pre-LPTB. Were they in fact built by the private UERL?

 

[The exile]

When was the general stock of Gresley non-buffet vehicles, or those of other companies actually withdrawn from passenger service? Apparently the arrival of DMUs displaced them earlier than expected. I’ve seen preserved Stanier vehicles with NSE moquette, suggesting they ran peak extras into the 1980s.

That’ll be the result of preservation groups using what they’ve got available / been given, not an indication of their survival that long in main line passenger service. Alternatively they survived as departmental stock and received whatever upholstery was kicking around.

 

[yorksrob]

The EPBs went to blue/grey. Most were post-1950 build, but some had trailers rewired from SUB units, whose building crossed nationalisation time; someone will know if any of these pre-1948 Ones were in sets in the new colours.

Yes, some of them lasted into the late 1980's, when most compartment carriages were swapped out.

 

[WesternLancer]

The Brighton Belle EMUs did carry B&G in their twilight years.

Good shout!

 

[edwin_m]

502s except 2 vehicles were long gone by 1980 but carried blue and grey so the policy of no grey on multiple units must have changed earlier than that. 503s continued to 1985, awaiting 455/7s delivered in blue and grey to displace the 508s diverted to the South Western, so blue and grey was still current.

The 313s and I think the 312s were blue and grey from new, circa 1975.

 

[Magdalia]

I’ve noticed that Gresley buffets were famously the last pre-nationalisation hauled coaches on BR

The last passenger carrying vehicles of pre-Nationalisation design, and carrying pre-Nationalisation fleet numbers, were the two Thompson designed buffet cars E1705E and E1706E built just after World War 2 for the Flying Scotsman. I'm not sure whether they actually entered service before 1 January 1948.

E1705E and E1706E were active on the Eastern Region for most of the 1970s, including on the North Country Continental and Cambridge Buffet Expresses, but spent the last few years of their life on the West Highland line, and numbered SC1705E and SC1706E. One of them was used as a static mess room for staff dealing with the aftermath of the Penmanshiel tunnel collapse in 1979.

some LMS and LNER sleepers

Only one LNER sleeper, E1211E.

When was the general stock of Gresley non-buffet vehicles, or those of other companies actually withdrawn from passenger service?

There was a huge cull in the period immediately after the Beeching Report. One of the first actions was the withdrawal of the large fleet of pre-Nationalisation coaches used only a few times a year on summer Saturday services and excursion traffic.

The 313s and I think the 312s were blue and grey from new, circa 1975.

This is off topic but I'll answer to put it to bed. The class 313s and the GN class 312s were blue and grey from new, but the Great Eastern and London Midland class 312s were plain blue.

 

[Merle Haggard]

As has been mentioned already, some L.M.S. designed 'Porthole' coaches received B&G and I saw them in West Coast express formations. They were built by B.R.,, though, and were all-steel. Some genuine L.M.S. BG were also B&G; they were still used in express formations and were presumably painted to match the rest of the train. Wolverton also did 'touch-up & varnish' so other coaches emerged in today maroon after the introduction of B&G.
I also travelled in a Hawksworth design (but B.R. - built) coach in B&G from New Street to Bristol in the summer of 1968 or 9 - it was on the rear of the train, so I'm not sure that it was working a full NE - SW diagram. I also photo'd two Thompson sleeping cars in B&G at Newton Abbot around the same time.
I didn't understand how the Gresley Buffets survived so long; they were wooden bodied. Bullied design coaches and the 'Portholes' (both all-steel) were taken out of service because of concerns about safety - from memory, these two had a design end loading of only 100 tons/f whereas the Mk1s were 200. I don't think that a Gresley would have fared well if marshalled between all-steel stock in a collision.

 

[Ashley Hill]

It seems no GWR (or designed) coaches made it into blue/grey then. Did the WR have a 1960s cull of pre-nationalisation stock? I remember seeing the Derby RTC auto coach out and about.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The 'Golden Arrow' Pullman cars (although privately built 1951-2) ended their days in 1972 in blue and grey. For a period, some cars were in the 'reversed' blue and grey.

 

[d9009alycidon]

The 'Golden Arrow' Pullman cars (although privately built 1951-2) ended their days in 1972 in blue and grey. For a period, some cars were in the 'reversed' blue and grey.

Also the Hyperion Bar, painted Blue and Grey as the Nightcap Bar.

 

[Merle Haggard]

It seems no GWR (or designed) coaches made it into blue/grey then. Did the WR have a 1960s cull of pre-nationalisation stock? I remember seeing the Derby RTC auto coach out and about.

Please see my post above (Hawksworth = G.W. design)

 

[WesternLancer]

I didn't understand how the Gresley Buffets survived so long; they were wooden bodied. Bullied design coaches and the 'Portholes' (both all-steel) were taken out of service because of concerns about safety - from memory, these two had a design end loading of only 100 tons/f whereas the Mk1s were 200. I don't think that a Gresley would have fared well if marshalled between all-steel stock in a collision.

Tangential to this, given that the Mk1 fleet seemed pretty vast I assume this means that there were simply not enough restaurant or buffet cars built to meet the need. Was there any particular reason for that?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Tangential to this, given that the Mk1 fleet seemed pretty vast I assume this means that there were simply not enough restaurant or buffet cars built to meet the need. Was there any particular reason for that?

What was odd was that the first B.R. Standard catering stock, the RFs (300s) and all kitchen (80000) had very short lives, though there were probably good reasons - the first kitchen cars had anthracite stoves, which might have been a challenge. There were also the conversions of pre-nat stock to the early form of buffet cars which were known as 'caf-cars' - I think that they had 'Cafeteria' branding - which might have obviated building standard RMBs.
It was odd that, in the early 1960s, the prestige trains on the West Coast were formed of Standard seating coaches but often an L.M.S. 12 wheel 'diner'. The similar mismatch in the 1970s was the West Coast Mk2 sets with a Mk1 KB (1500, with the totem pole - and very heavy ride on the AL-bashed track!)

 

[Beebman]

It seems no GWR (or designed) coaches made it into blue/grey then. Did the WR have a 1960s cull of pre-nationalisation stock? I remember seeing the Derby RTC auto coach out and about.

There's a (poor quality) colour photo of a Hawksworth SK in blue/grey at the following link:

https://media-eu.invisioncic.com/y3...86.jpeg.80732488bfe6f146fdca0cd9c7fb31ac.jpeg

 

[Rescars]

Tangential to this, given that the Mk1 fleet seemed pretty vast I assume this means that there were simply not enough restaurant or buffet cars built to meet the need. Was there any particular reason for that?

Others will know more of the details, but anecdotally, catering vehicles must be a lot more expensive to build than standard coaches, seeing they house commercial grade kitchens and service areas with all the associated complexities of drinking water plumbing, wiring, cooking fuel, etc. Also, operating practices on some routes (e.g. WR) involved uncoupling a portion of the train, including the catering vehicle at a mid-way point. When aggregated, this presumably resulted in some catering vehicles at least running lower annual mileages than other stock.

What was odd was that the first B.R. Standard catering stock, the RFs (300s) and all kitchen (80000) had very short lives, though there were probably good reasons - the first kitchen cars had anthracite stoves, which might have been a challenge. There were also the conversions of pre-nat stock to the early form of buffet cars which were known as 'caf-cars' - I think that they had 'Cafeteria' branding - which might have obviated building standard RMBs.
It was odd that, in the early 1960s, the prestige trains on the West Coast were formed of Standard seating coaches but often an L.M.S. 12 wheel 'diner'. The similar mismatch in the 1970s was the West Coast Mk2 sets with a Mk1 KB (1500, with the totem pole - and very heavy ride on the AL-bashed track!)

IIRC, the RFs had no buffet counter which made sales of drinks and snacks problematic. This could only be done from the pantry, which obstructed staff if they were trying to serve main meals in the saloon portion of the carriage at the same time. Some RK 80000s survived until around 1980, though these examples had propane fired kitchens. They were designed for full meal service into saloons on each side and, fully staffed, could deliver 224 covers at a sitting. Useful for full dining specials on race days and the like, but of limited value for everyday traffic. With service to every table, clearly no need for a buffet counter here.

The Mark 1 catering cars survived because no Mark 2 catering cars were designed. It was not until the Mark 3s came along that the possibilities of microwaves and other modern amenities of an all electric kitchen could be enjoyed. I suspect that some older saloons may have survived because they had a layout and tables specifically designed for dining. Whatever the benefits of the trapezoidal tables in Mark 2s may have been regarding access, fitting four place settings on them was challenging and serving soup decided perilous. Thus the use of second class Mark 2s for dining was unusual. An RKB or an RBR fitted with commonwealth bogies could give its adjoining Mark 2 saloon an exhilarating ride if it was running rough.

 

[WesternLancer]

What was odd was that the first B.R. Standard catering stock, the RFs (300s) and all kitchen (80000) had very short lives, though there were probably good reasons - the first kitchen cars had anthracite stoves, which might have been a challenge. There were also the conversions of pre-nat stock to the early form of buffet cars which were known as 'caf-cars' - I think that they had 'Cafeteria' branding - which might have obviated building standard RMBs.
It was odd that, in the early 1960s, the prestige trains on the West Coast were formed of Standard seating coaches but often an L.M.S. 12 wheel 'diner'. The similar mismatch in the 1970s was the West Coast Mk2 sets with a Mk1 KB (1500, with the totem pole - and very heavy ride on the AL-bashed track!)

Thanks for those points. Yes I remember in my youth thinking that Mk1 catering vehicles on the WCML looked 'out of kilter' with more modern stock - and that I think would have been into the 1980s too.

I suspect there was the need and expectation of a catering vehicle on far more trains back in the day than would ever be expected now.

Others will know more of the details, but anecdotally, catering vehicles must be a lot more expensive to build than standard coaches, seeing they house commercial grade kitchens and service areas with all the associated complexities of drinking water plumbing, wiring, cooking fuel, etc. Also, operating practices on some routes (e.g. WR) involved uncoupling a portion of the train, including the catering vehicle at a mid-way point. When aggregated, this presumably resulted in some catering vehicles at least running lower annual mileages than other stock.

IIRC, the RFs had no buffet counter which made sales of drinks and snacks problematic. This could only be done from the pantry, which obstructed staff if they were trying to serve main meals in the saloon portion of the carriage at the same time. Some RK 80000s survived until around 1980, though these examples had propane fired kitchens. They were designed for full meal service into saloons on each side and, fully staffed, could deliver 224 covers at a sitting. Useful for full dining specials on race days and the like, but of limited value for everyday traffic. With service to every table, clearly no need for a buffet counter here.

The Mark 1 catering cars survived because no Mark 2 catering cars were designed. It was not until the Mark 3s came along that the possibilities of microwaves and other modern amenities of an all electric kitchen could be enjoyed. I suspect that some older saloons may have survived because they had a layout and tables specifically designed for dining. Whatever the benefits of the trapezoidal tables in Mark 2s may have been regarding access, fitting four place settings on them was challenging and serving soup decided perilous. Thus the use of second class Mark 2s for dining was unusual. An RKB or an RBR fitted with commonwealth bogies could give its adjoining Mark 2 saloon an exhilarating ride if it was running rough.

Thanks - interesting to read these observations. Points well made no doubt.

 

[30907]

What was odd was that the first B.R. Standard catering stock, the RFs (300s) and all kitchen (80000) had very short lives, though there were probably good reasons - the first kitchen cars had anthracite stoves, which might have been a challenge. There were also the conversions of pre-nat stock to the early form of buffet cars which were known as 'caf-cars' - I think that they had 'Cafeteria' branding - which might have obviated building standard RMBs.
It was odd that, in the early 1960s, the prestige trains on the West Coast were formed of Standard seating coaches but often an L.M.S. 12 wheel 'diner'. The similar mismatch in the 1970s was the West Coast Mk2 sets with a Mk1 KB (1500, with the totem pole - and very heavy ride on the AL-bashed track!)

Two factors to add:
1. many cars had spells out of service in WW2 so weren't life-expired. Hence building Mk1 catering vehicles wasn't priority, except for the early triples which were to make all Mk 1 sets on each region.
2. Said triples were over-provision on many routes (the SR moved its sole car from the Royal Wessex to a weekend-only Ilfracombe trip replacing the Devon Belle) though I think they survived in charter sets - I recall seeing RKs in an Ascot race special at Clapham Yard around 1980 (unless they were the version with a tiny buffet counter?)

 

[Cowley]

I started a thread a few years ago that overlaps with this one slightly:

Interesting rarities that made it into BR blue?

Paint wibble alert! Sort of related to the photo of the Metro-Vic Co-bo in BR blue in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-28-%E2%80%9Cloaf%E2%80%9D-metro-vick-type-2-co-bo.213986/ I’m interested in locos or rolling stock that were painted in corporate blue/blue and grey...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Merle Haggard]

Two factors to add:
1. many cars had spells out of service in WW2 so weren't life-expired. Hence building Mk1 catering vehicles wasn't priority, except for the early triples which were to make all Mk 1 sets on each region.
2. Said triples were over-provision on many routes (the SR moved its sole car from the Royal Wessex to a weekend-only Ilfracombe trip replacing the Devon Belle) though I think they survived in charter sets - I recall seeing RKs in an Ascot race special at Clapham Yard around 1980 (unless they were the version with a tiny buffet counter?)

Even in the late 50s early 60s there was stock stored that hadn't turned a wheel for years but presumably thought too good to scrap. On a closed line around Wolverton. Connington and Micheldever seemed to have a few vintage ones, too, as you whizzed past.

From memory there were two all-kitchen (80022 &24???) cars in the 'West Midland Executive' set as late as 1970-71 - presumably until it stopped running. There was also one or maybe two in the '15 Guinea Special'

The ones with the tiny buffet counter had no seats, but a curious circular table around a thick vertical column (the 'Totem Pole') and these were the KB - 1500s. The 80000s were number in the 8nnnn series because they were pedantically 'non-passenger carrying' but the 1500s didn't have seating, either.

The incorrect use of 'R' in the codes has always bugged me. In a hotel, the door marked 'Restaurant' leads to where you eat, not the kitchen!

 

[edwin_m]

The cynic in me says that the retention of older catering vehicles was to encourage passengers to return to their more comfortable seats, and make space for more buffet customers.

 

[Helvellyn]

Two lots of vehicles I can't see mentioned, which also lasted until the mid-1980s:

• The ex-LNER special saloons that were used as Observation Cars in Scotland.
  • SC1998E Loch Eil, built Doncaster 1936
  • SC1999E Lochaber, built York 1945
• The Vale of Rheidol stock built by the GWR at Swindon in the 1920s and 1930s. They carried Blue and Grey before getting Chocolate and Cream in the mid-1980s (possibly linked with GWR 150 celebrations?).

The ones with the tiny buffet counter had no seats, but a curious circular table around a thick vertical column (the 'Totem Pole') and these were the KB - 1500s. The 80000s were number in the 8nnnn series because they were pedantically 'non-passenger carrying' but the 1500s didn't have seating, either.

The 800xx vehicles were RK (Kitchen Car) whereas the 15xx vehicles were RKB (Kitchen Buffet). It was the presence of the Buffet and that pole with space to rest drinks that probably saw the latter numbered in the passenger carrying series because people could consume their refreshments in the vehicle, so technically making them passenger carrying!

The incorrect use of 'R' in the codes has always bugged me. In a hotel, the door marked 'Restaurant' leads to where you eat, not the kitchen!

R seems to have been used to indicate catering vehicles rather than Restaurant per say, and several never had Restaurant in their name - RK (Kitchen Car), RKB (Kitchen Buffet), RG (Griddle) and RMB (Miniature Buffet).

Just as B was used for anything with a Brake. C for Catering might have made more sense but maybe someone thought it would have been confusing because you had C for Composite (Corridor stock already used K, I presume for a similar reason).