Prioritising freight vs passenger trains and how it works in other countries?

[zwk500]

No exaggeration. Half an hour frieghts 24 hours a day on the GEML.

But freights running on other lines are not the same as freights getting in the way of passenger trains.

 

[LAX54]

It might interest the OP to know that the delay has been attributed to a trespass incident north of Northampton, apparently involving a photographer presumably out for 1Z33.

Might I suggest that some humble pie would be in order?

There is a higher chance of trains such as 1Z33 causing far more delay to the Network than a freight !
As for Class 1 / Class 2 designation, they have got far more muddied over the years, and now a Class 2 can actually be a lot 'faster' than a Class 1 !

 

[zwk500]

There is a higher chance of trains such as 1Z33 causing far more delay to the Network than a freight !
As for Class 1 / Class 2 designation, they have got far more muddied over the years, and now a Class 2 can actually be a lot 'faster' than a Class 1 !

Not to mention the Class 9 designation, which could reasonably be said to be 'chaotic' or 'a debacle'.

 

[43066]

Never said that, only that the UK could do more to put passengers ahead.

You did say that, you specifically said (my emphasis):

it's things like putting freight ahead of all passenger trains that shows up the railway as being less interested in prioritising customers.

As a rule in the UK freight is not put ahead of passenger trains.

Passengers see the consequences, and yes, passengers see freight trains pass all the time, minutes after their train was meant to arrive,

No, they don’t. On some of the most congested parts of the UK network it’s rare for passengers to see a freight train at all!

 

[RailWonderer]

But freights running on other lines are not the same as freights getting in the way of passenger trains.

The GE is a two track railway Shenfield - Ipswich and most freights are to Felixstowe. Most of the network is fortunate enough to have 4 track railways or less tph on the line with space for freights or Network Rail wouldn't allow the paths on the line at all.

As a rule in the UK freight is not put ahead of passenger trains.

I knew that so I worded my original post wrong. I later did say most passenger trains are put ahead of freights. I understand what you're saying but in some parts of the country passengers see many frieights pass like on the GE and on the WCML (although mostly 4 tracked).

 

[LAX54]

Or a safety conscious one. Some of the accidents over the last few years have brought it home how poor standards are on many of their operations.

There is a FB Group in Europe called Der Eisenbahner, it is scary how many incidents that happen in Europe, almost on a weekly basis, no wonder tourists are impressed with the UK Rail system when they travel here.

 

[dk1]

There is a FB Group in Europe called Der Eisenbahner, it is scary how many incidents that happen in Europe, almost on a weekly basis, no wonder tourists are impressed with the UK Rail system when they travel here.

The British public don't realise quite how lucky they are. Always quick to criticise our railways.

 

[RailWonderer]

The British public don't realise quite how lucky they are. Always quick to criticise our railways.

If our railways were less safe they would be criticising Network Rail for not doing enough when an accident happens. Better to over-engineer.

 

[Llanigraham]

The GE is a two track railway Shenfield - Ipswich and most freights are to Felixstowe. Most of the network is fortunate enough to have 4 track railways or less tph on the line with space for freights or Network Rail wouldn't allow the paths on the line at all.

I knew that so I worded my original post wrong. I later did say most passenger trains are put ahead of freights. I understand what you're saying but in some parts of the country passengers see many frieights pass like on the GE and on the WCML (although mostly 4 tracked).

No it isn't. Most of the network is double track only.

 

[dk1]

If our railways were less safe they would be criticising Network Rail for not doing enough when an accident happens. Better to over-engineer.

It would choke many to praise anything.

 

[Falcon1200]

No exaggeration. Half an hour frieghts 24 hours a day on the GEML.

Considering how busy the GEML is, and only double track beyond Shenfield, it strikes me it might be difficult not to put a freight out in front of a passenger train; The freights do have to run.

 

[dk1]

Considering how busy the GEML is, and only double track beyond Shenfield, it strikes me it might be difficult not to put a freight out in front of a passenger train; The freights do have to run.

Hopefully Beaulieu Park will help a little but that’s a way off yet. I’ve not been delayed too much behind liners lately and if I have either there’s recovery in the schedule to take account of it so best to set the the ASL to 70-75mph anyway & the power of the 745s allow easy recovery of any minutes lost.

 

[RailWonderer]

No it isn't. Most of the network is double track only.

Most of the freight network. See NR map here. The GWML, WCML, MML, ECML and is 4 tracked for long stretches.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Freight-UK-Base-Map-Rail-Freight-Commodities_Final-v1.0_PDF.pdf

 

[eldomtom2]

If not, then they seem to have to wait. Passenger services are subsidised - quelle surprise - but the support for the subsidy seems to be far from consistent.

Amtrak services are split between long-distance (federally subsidised) and short-distance (state subsidised). Obviously this model does not lead itself to planning an integrated network.

Railroad law is federal and 90% of law enforcement is state based (I'm guessing at that number) so enforcement is not a priority.

I'm fairly certain that's not the case, since the states have very little ability to regulate railroads.

 

[66701GBRF]

No exaggeration. Half an hour frieghts 24 hours a day on the GEML.

Did you ever think those freights might be late BECAUSE they have been held somewhere for a passenger?

 

[LAX54]

Hopefully Beaulieu Park will help a little but that’s a way off yet. I’ve not been delayed too much behind liners lately and if I have either there’s recovery in the schedule to take account of it so best to set the the ASL to 70-75mph anyway & the power of the 745s allow easy recovery of any minutes lost.

Have seen a diagram of the area, interesting, but looking at it, it's going to be no good to loop freights, dont know if you have seen it ?

 

[chorleyjeff]

Poorer decisions have been made this week, a few examples below.

8-13 minutes late for 1Y55 to Manchester Airport after being held at Bolton for the late running Rochdale 2J23 stopper seems to be a weekly occurrence

Realtime Trains | 1Y55 0722 Blackpool North to Manchester Airport | 23/02/2023

Real-time train running information for 1Y55 0722 departure from Blackpool North to Manchester Airport on 23/02/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1Y55 0722 Blackpool North to Manchester Airport | 01/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 1Y55 0722 departure from Blackpool North to Manchester Airport on 01/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

A 7 minute delay departing Oxford Rd whilst held for 1Y50 that had only just departed Salford Crescent

Realtime Trains | 2F43 1614 Manchester Oxford Road to Warrington Central | 02/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 2F43 1614 departure from Manchester Oxford Road to Warrington Central on 02/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

1Y54 (all stops) was signalled to depart Preston 3 minutes ahead of the express 1Y91, and not regulated at either Bolton or Salford Crescent. Therefore was terminated short at Piccadilly due to this delay.

Wouldn't the stopper stop at Leyland on the slow line so the non stopper could overtake on the fast line and get to Euston junction first ?

 

[dk1]

Have seen a diagram of the area, interesting, but looking at it, it's going to be no good to loop freights, dont know if you have seen it ?

I thought it was 3 lined with 775m capacity.

 

[chorleyjeff]

What about exports? Say you're a business sending containers to Felixstowe - is it okay for your goods to be a whole day late? What if, for example, you will incur penalties or loss of sales because of it?

Freight is valuable - you should have a think about how much in terms of goods are on the next 40 wagon train you see and think about whether that's more or less than an 8-car Class 350.

Day late could mean several days delay for those containers if the ship sails on time, or if ship delayed the costs are very high.

 

[LAX54]

I thought it was 3 lined with 775m capacity.

I am not sure about lengths, it just did not 'look' long enough sent a pic

Day late could mean several days delay for those containers if the ship sails on time, or if ship delayed the costs are very high.

When I was SSM if there was a freight running about 4 or 5 late, and there was a Londion bound stopper in P4 at Colchester, we'd hold the stopper about 4 mins or so, to give the liner a good run, otherwise the 4 or 5 late could end up much much more !

 

[dk1]

I am not sure about lengths, it just did not 'look' long enough sent a pic

Yes cheers for that matey. I’m sure I read somewhere that it would be.

 

[LAX54]

Yes cheers for that matey. I’m sure I read somewhere that it would be.

Hope so, will be useful

 

[Efini92]

Wouldn't the stopper stop at Leyland on the slow line so the non stopper could overtake on the fast line and get to Euston junction first ?

It’s booked fast line from Preston, I doubt anyone looked at the late runner. Plus it’s a nightmare getting across Euxton jn from the slow.

 

[Llanigraham]

Most of the freight network. See NR map here. The GWML, WCML, MML, ECML and is 4 tracked for long stretches.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Freight-UK-Base-Map-Rail-Freight-Commodities_Final-v1.0_PDF.pdf

But you didn't state the freight network, you said "the network". And considering the amount of freight that doesn't use those routes I still say you are wrong, plus the whole of the WCML, for instance, isn't four track, as isn't all the GWML.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Unfortunately threads like this are the reason I don’t love it so much sometimes.

Something which comes across as ‘a rant’ will usually be someone genuinely trying to engage in conversation with others. It can often be easy to get the tone of of a first post wrong, and it does make me sad to see new members being immediately shot down/ganged up on by others. If you don’t agree with the post or you think the OP is incorrect I think it’s best to either leave a respectful reply or simply scroll on.

It’s worth remembering that people can reach out to forums for all sorts of reasons, and what may seem a bit of a witty/funny reply could leave someone feeling pretty low. It’s nice to be kind.

I feel that way too, we don't know who's behind these profiles, so some people might be really young, lonely, learning difficulties etc and sometimes, especially in the 'Speculative Ideas' sub-forum, posters seem ridiculed for not having industry level knowledge.

I feel like the "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything" maxim is especially appropriate on online forums...

 

[Facing Back]

Amtrak services are split between long-distance (federally subsidised) and short-distance (state subsidised). Obviously this model does not lead itself to planning an integrated network.

I'm fairly certain that's not the case, since the states have very little ability to regulate railroads.

Yes, re-reading my post, I was ambiguous.

 

[al78]

The British public don't realise quite how lucky they are. Always quick to criticise our railways.

Often for good reason. To be good enough, it is not sufficient to be better than the worst.

 

[Meerkat]

Often for good reason. To be good enough, it is not sufficient to be better than the worst.

I think you just proved their point!

 

[Omnishambles]

Had a cracking time following a class 7 from Thingley Jn to Swindon the other week…but what’s following it ? What’s due ? What other options did the signaller have ? That’s without how long it takes for a 2-3000t train to get moving so maybe delay one and not several ?
Have seen it happen before where the signaller has taken a chance or just plain missed an express and has made an error but now I don’t deal with regulating everyday am certainly not going to slate anyone without the ‘bigger picture’

 

[Suraggu]

Nonsense. What if a full intermodal train misses it's slot at the docks?

And this is what FOC controls alongside their respective performance teams try to emphasise to Network Rail.

Freight is just as important as passenger services and it should be treated as such. There have been improvements on various parts of the network but I do feel there will never be an equal footing on both sides.