Prioritising freight vs passenger trains and how it works in other countries?

[66701GBRF]

Its also not just about containers on that individual freight train but ensuring a reliable level of service for the freight companies onward customers. If you are constantly missing containers because of continued late train arrivals then they will look else where such as road which will not benefit anyone (except the road haulage industry).

 

[Horizon22]

And this is what FOC controls alongside their respective performance teams try to emphasise to Network Rail.

Freight is just as important as passenger services and it should be treated as such. There have been improvements on various parts of the network but I do feel there will never be an equal footing on both sides.

The issue is when they present off 60+ late in the first place from the yard and I know that FOC controls are not always the easiest to get through to during times of disruption.

A bit of delay is acceptable and inevitable, but I have seen some downright bizarre regulation decisions that makes a 60 minute late train still only 60 minutes late, but delays a bunch of passenger trains in the peak which don’t recover for a good hour or more.

They need the seem deep focus on performance improvement as many TOCs have been subject to over the past decade or so. I do get the feeling there’s a lot of external factors but ultimately there are paths for freight that are not uncommonly woefully missed.

 

[LYuen]

Completely oversimplified overview of railway in Japan and China

Japan (conventional lines)​

Upon the privatisation, passenger operators own the track and manage them, including signalling and scheduling. Freight train formations are usually short, and they run short stints between one freight terminal to another (do the loading or wait for a slot to the next terminal). Hence, freight trains don't usually need to slow down and cruise too much and therefore not delaying passenger trains.

China​

Freight and passenger services are under the same group. Traditionally and for conventional lines, freight and passenger services are loosely separated by time - long distance passenger services are usually overnight while freight trains run on daytime. For high speed mainlines and intercity "passenger railway", there is no freight train or locomotive hauled passenger train at all. High speed EMUs run on the line with metro style signalling and operation diagrams (not surprising to see quadruple-track passenger only railway with each track running at 5-10 minutes interval at 300kph)

 

[Falcon1200]

The issue is when they present off 60+ late in the first place from the yard

Indeed. Going back to the halcyon days of coal traffic over the Glasgow & South Western route, loaded trains regularly departed their origin late and caused pathing problems, in fact it was not unknown for two such trains to be approaching Mauchline at the same time, one from the Newton (Ayr) direction and one from Kilmarnock.

Often the late start reason was 'late loading'; I used to suggest/moan that as, whether every seat was occupied or not, passenger trains left on time, perhaps coal trains should too, regardless of how full the wagons were (not a serious idea......)

 

[Suraggu]

The issue is when they present off 60+ late in the first place from the yard and I know that FOC controls are not always the easiest to get through to during times of disruption.

A bit of delay is acceptable and inevitable, but I have seen some downright bizarre regulation decisions that makes a 60 minute late train still only 60 minutes late, but delays a bunch of passenger trains in the peak which don’t recover for a good hour or more.

They need the seem deep focus on performance improvement as many TOCs have been subject to over the past decade or so. I do get the feeling there’s a lot of external factors but ultimately there are paths for freight that are not uncommonly woefully missed.

I'm with you on that one in regards to the presenting 60+ minutes of delay. Communication is key.

 

[eldomtom2]

Japan (conventional lines)​

Upon the privatisation, passenger operators own the track and manage them, including signalling and scheduling. Freight train formations are usually short, and they run short stints between one freight terminal to another (do the loading or wait for a slot to the next terminal). Hence, freight trains don't usually need to slow down and cruise too much and therefore not delaying passenger trains.

And also conventional Japanese trains run at fairly slow speeds - 87mph at the absolute highest and usually slower - so there's less opportunities for a fast passenger train to catch up to a slow freight train.

 

[furnessvale]

Often the late start reason was 'late loading'; I used to suggest/moan that as, whether every seat was occupied or not, passenger trains left on time, perhaps coal trains should too, regardless of how full the wagons were (not a serious idea......)

No such a daft idea, it happens regularly with Peak District stone trains that a delayed unloading results in one or more loaded wagons returning to the quarry rather than delay the whole train and miss a path.

 

[LYuen]

And also conventional Japanese trains run at fairly slow speeds - 87mph at the absolute highest and usually slower - so there's less opportunities for a fast passenger train to catch up to a slow freight train.

Yes, it is part of the Shinkansen business strategy - Much faster service so people would buy the premium, hence greater profit, hence get the funding to maintain a reliable service and for further improvement.
While the other main reason is the law - for non-Shinkansen railroad, a train must stop within 800m from their top operation speed. This sets the top operational speed to just 130km/h or 80mph.
Narrow gauge is another reason but there is still more potential to extract - in fact the Hokuhoku Line previously had a line speed of 160km/h (100 mph) because it was built to a higher standard, however that service is now 'indirectly' replaced by Shinkansen itself.

 

[eldomtom2]

While the other main reason is the law - for non-Shinkansen railroad, a train must stop within 800m from their top operation speed.

600m actually, though nowadays you can get derogations. Even then many lines have a top speed of less than 130km/h.

 

[Krokodil]

Passenger trains should take priority over any freight train.

Class 1 and 2 trains DO have priority, and arguably get given a lot more than they should.

Indeed, an intermodal train can manage the same top speed as many passenger trains, so once you account for the passenger train stopping and starting it would be better to let the intermodal train run first.

We are not a tin pot country where shelves will be empty after one missed day of deliveries.

Where have you been for the last three years?

 

[zwk500]

Indeed, an intermodal train can manage the same top speed as many passenger trains, so once you account for the passenger train stopping and starting it would be better to let the intermodal train run first.

This is really a line-by-line thing. It depends on the gradient profile, length between stops, attainable speeds, extra restrictions etc. However, the broad point is correct - a Class 4 can usually keep up with a stopping train in a comparable path.

 

[ac6000cw]

Canadian National, which is the main passenger line across Canada although it does carry much freight, is a public company, previously nationalised but currently the largest shareholder is Bill Gates.
Canadian Pacific is the other operator and that is almost exclusively frieight although they do run commuter services in Toronto and Quebec. It's largest stockholder is a London hedge fund company.

The long-distance and inter-city passenger trains in Canada are operated by the government-owned VIA Rail mostly over tracks owned by CN & CP. The various commuter heavy-rail operations are the responsibility of local transit agencies e.g. GO Transit in the Toronto area using a mixture of its own, CN & CP tracks. GO Transit contracts out train operations, currently to Alstom, not sure about the situation with the other transit agencies (but I think it's contracted out in Vancouver, BC, and operated under contract by CN & CP in the Montreal area). The Rocky Mountaineer tour trains are operated by their own crews AFAIK.

So it's basically the same situation as in the US, except that it seems VIA has even less rights/powers in dealing with delays caused by freight train issues than Amtrak has...

 

[TPO]

Sorry but this is complete nonsense. The UK railway doesn’t “put freight ahead of all passenger trains”! On the other hand you’ll find railways in other parts of the world do prioritise freight over passenger trains (eg USA and Australia)!

Why do so many posters on here seem to like bashing the railway for incorrect/made up reasons?!

This. Although post-Covid it's better than it used to be, we are getting better paths now, fewer 2-hour waits at junctions into busy areas whilst mostly-empty passenger trains get priority......

Indeed - Freight is extremely valuable, there is much more revenue generated per train path than for passenger services.

Decarbonising freight is a much higher priority than individual passenger trips - lorries off the road is a major sell of HS2.

Indeed, and freight track access payments are proper income for NR, freight pays its way, always been a bugbear that we pay the true cost of impact of our trains whereas trucks don't pay sufficient road access charge to reflect the level of damage from greater axle weights. Also if a freight train delays anything we have to pay delay minutes so I can assure you that great efforts are made not to cause a delay!

Freight customers expect their deliveries to be on time too, just as they expect with HGVs. Constant delays will result in freight moving back to road from rail.

It's also very inefficient to turn a freight out behind a class 2 due to the need to brake earlier on a heavier train and much slower acceleration.

What about exports? Say you're a business sending containers to Felixstowe - is it okay for your goods to be a whole day late? What if, for example, you will incur penalties or loss of sales because of it?

Freight is valuable - you should have a think about how much in terms of goods are on the next 40 wagon train you see and think about whether that's more or less than an 8-car Class 350.

Ships have very short load/unload times these days. Freight also needs to run on time. Also docks have limited capacity so incoming containers need shifting out as fast as they arrive.

You did say that, you specifically said (my emphasis):



As a rule in the UK freight is not put ahead of passenger trains.



No, they don’t. On some of the most congested parts of the UK network it’s rare for passengers to see a freight train at all!

Correct. Just try to get a VSTP path through certain areas of London in the peak..... no chance! A lot of freight runs at night and much use is made of stretches of track which are little used by passenger trains.

Modern logistics is very tightly managed and one could argue that in terms of feeding the population and keeping the economy moving, freight is far more important than passenger travel on both road and rail.

TPO

 

[Watershed]

Indeed, and freight track access payments are proper income for NR, freight pays its way

Freight operators only pay variable track access charges, which are designed to roughly correspond with the wear and tear caused to the track and infrastructure. However, they don't pay fixed track access charges and thus pay nothing towards the cost of keeping freight-only lines open, or having lines open overnight when there are no passenger services, let alone the other costs of having a freight-capable railway, such as having goods loops.

Indeed, passengers often have to suffer with weekend engineering works or long Saturday night to Sunday morning planned closures as a result of freight running through the night.

Private freight operators are thus heavily subsidised, both financially and operationally, to run their services.

 

[furnessvale]

Private freight operators are thus heavily subsidised, both financially and operationally, to run their services.

Any subsidies to rail freight at least have an environmental gloss to them.

What polish can we apply to the even larger subsidies given to road freight?

 

[woolleywoods]

In my neck of the woods you have no choice but to run the liners. Once they leave Peterborough or Ipswich there is the grand total of 1 loop that can accommodate a single full length liner, and that's at Ely.

Peterborough is my area as well to be honest the ECML handles both freight and passenger services well with very few delays this has improved immeasurably since the Werrington junction Tunnel eased the freight running and improved the passenger train flow timings have been plus on only a few occasions but the improvement has been dramatic in my opinion.

Never said that, only that the UK could do more to put passengers ahead.

Yes.

Yes but customers have to be prioritised differently.

Passengers see the consequences, and yes, passengers see freight trains pass all the time, minutes after their train was meant to arrive, so yes, freight is in the minds of passengers when standing on a draughty platform listening to a deafening 66 locomotive pass. You cannot say it is negligable, it is easily 10-15 mins regularly and sometimes more. I was not blaming freight for all the UK rail's reputation problems, only a small part of it.

We are not a tin pot country where shelves will be empty after one missed day of deliveries.

Yes to all.

Never said that, only that the UK could do more to put passengers ahead.

Yes.

Yes but customers have to be prioritised differently.

Passengers see the consequences, and yes, passengers see freight trains pass all the time, minutes after their train was meant to arrive, so yes, freight is in the minds of passengers when standing on a draughty platform listening to a deafening 66 locomotive pass. You cannot say it is negligable, it is easily 10-15 mins regularly and sometimes more. I was not blaming freight for all the UK rail's reputation problems, only a small part of it.

We are not a tin pot country where shelves will be empty after one missed day of deliveries.

Yes to all.

I have never heard a deafening 66 in my life but I hark back to the 60's 70's and 80's deafening definition diesel wise meant Deltic, 37's, 40's at full bore that is what defines deafening diesel not the quiet 66 anyway loved the noise can still here it now.

 

[TurbineEnginee]

But that's true. Freight is extremely valuable - much more so than any passenger train, and vastly more so than your railtour.

Making the passenger train slow doesn’t increase freight revenue nearly as fast as it reduces passenger revenue.

 

[43066]

Making the passenger train slow doesn’t increase freight revenue nearly as fast as it reduces passenger revenue.

But passenger trains aren’t being “made slow” for freight; that is a complete myth. Remember this whole thread has only come about because (AIUI) a rail tour was delayed by a trespass incident.

 

[Jobi-wan]

Did you ever think those freights might be late BECAUSE they have been held somewhere for a passenger?

Yeah, this happens frequently. Freight is quite often stopped to run to time as well, very rarely being put in front of passenger trains out of its path

 

[MarkWi72]

Easenhall, they hold them up for Passenger services.

 

[railfan99]

On the other hand you’ll find railways in other parts of the world do prioritise freight over passenger trains (eg USA and Australia)!

I haven't been on Amtrak since 2016 but this is sometimes true in the USA.

In my nation (Australia), it's not often true.

The long distance trains NSW TrainLink operates (Sydney to Armidale/Moree, Broken Hill/Bathurst, Brisbane/Casino/Grafton, Canberra, Griffith and Albury/Melbourne) generally have priority over freight trains. For instance it's not uncommon at Harden on the Sydney-Melbourne line for an express freight (plus sometimes an empty grain train) to be refuged for the passage of ST21, the 2042 hours XPT to Melbourne. Similarly on the up, a freight is scheduled to be overtaken by the Melbourne-Sydney overnight XPT at Yass Junction on some mornings at the ungodly hour of about 0315).

'The Indian Pacific' can be delayed by intermodal trains operating between Melbourne/Adelaide or Sydney/Parkes and Port Augusta/Kalgoorlie to Perth, but most times the long intermodals (up to 1800 metres, with some being double stacked) are put 'in the hole' while the 'IP' barrels through. Similarly with the twice a week Melbourne-Adelaide 'The Overland', a day train.

 

[Omnishambles]

Indeed, an intermodal train can manage the same top speed as many passenger trains, so once you account for the passenger train stopping and starting it would be better to let the intermodal train run first.

…always a standard rule of thumb I found. Class 4 or even Class 6 loosed from Wembley ahead of an all stations, never a problem and took away any SPAD risk of same following a stopper on restricted aspects

 

[Jobi-wan]

I am not sure about lengths, it just did not 'look' long enough sent a pic


When I was SSM if there was a freight running about 4 or 5 late, and there was a Londion bound stopper in P4 at Colchester, we'd hold the stopper about 4 mins or so, to give the liner a good run, otherwise the 4 or 5 late could end up much much more !

I think you should come back! Putting that stopper out in front of a liner means we're chasing yellows the whole way to Chelmsford. Happens to me regularly. Pair of 90s on the front and we'd be well out of the way of that unit!

We have a job where we follow a C-town from stratford all the way back. I set the speed limiter (90s) to 55mph at Maryland and still catch it up at Witham. Same on a 66, 55 is about the most you can get out of one of those between stratford and shenfield!

 

[Signal_Box]

mods note - title changed from “Passenger train delays”

Yet again signallers at rugby put a freight train out in front of 1z33 at Northampton,train left Northampton 1 min late got to rugby 16 late! And don’t feed me the usual oh but freight trains have a timetable as well! Passenger trains should take priority over any freight train. I bet if the public knew about this there would be uproar!!

You were wronged, freight should be recessed until all passenger trains have finished.

When the TOCs are on strike freight performance rockets, why should a 75mph Class 4 with millions of pounds worth of goods crawl along behind an all stations class 2 ?

The Northampton loop is tricky, from Bletchley to Northampton you’ve no realistic way of getting a passenger past a freight with AWC taking up the majority of fast line paths between Ledburn and Hanslope you’ve no options.

Loop the freight at Northampton, could do but then you’ll have issues getting it back out going North towards Rugby. But what if it’s booked into Daventry so as a slot to keep for Tesco for example?

It’s not as easy as bloody freight delaying passenger train, real life isn’t like Simsig.

mods note - title changed from “Passenger train delays”

Yet again signallers at rugby put a freight train out in front of 1z33 at Northampton,train left Northampton 1 min late got to rugby 16 late! And don’t feed me the usual oh but freight trains have a timetable as well! Passenger trains should take priority over any freight train. I bet if the public knew about this there would be uproar!!

So it was a rail tour ? I’ve only seen the unedited post.

Oh goodness me, railtours are the blood suckers of the industry they don’t pay the full costs of delays they cause, they take up huge amounts of planning department time and cost huge amounts in delays when they cause delay.

Ban rail tours full stop, especially steam ones !

 

[james60059]

I remember back in the days of Central Trains and the through services from Coventry - East Midlands. Once in a while we'd get a Freightliner creeping into Coventry from the Leamington line a couple of minutes before the 16:37 (to Nottingham IIRC) was due to leave. More often than not, the liner would get priority up "the branch", although I hazard a guess this was to get it out of Coventry to free a platform for a Virgin Trains service.

 

[james_the_xv]

I remember back in the days of Central Trains and the through services from Coventry - East Midlands. Once in a while we'd get a Freightliner creeping into Coventry from the Leamington line a couple of minutes before the 16:37 (to Nottingham IIRC) was due to leave. More often than not, the liner would get priority up "the branch", although I hazard a guess this was to get it out of Coventry to free a platform for a Virgin Trains service.

Generally not a great idea to dwell freight in a relatively small but busy station like Coventry unless it's booked to, so you're probably correct. It would likely foul up some overlaps as well if it was stopped

Ban rail tours full stop, especially steam ones !

Big cast off there looking for a bite

 

[Signal_Box]

Generally not a great idea to dwell freight in a relatively small but busy station like Coventry unless it's booked to, so you're probably correct. It would likely foul up some overlaps as well if it was stopped



Big cast off there looking for a bite

Nope, their a pain in the arse for very little return.

 

[james_the_xv]

Nope, their a pain in the arse for very little return.

What very little return? They provide jobs, stimulate local economies, and are generally seen as worth it by the industry by the fact they continue to be allowed in good numbers?

I'm not saying the can't be a pain, especially when they encounter problems, but that's the reason why they mostly run on weekends and bank holidays. Just because you don't think they're worth it, doesn't mean the benefits of them don't outweigh the costs overall (otherwise the operators wouldn't operate them, nor would NR/DFT allow them).

 

[Signal_Box]

What very little return? They provide jobs, stimulate local economies, and are generally seen as worth it by the industry by the fact they continue to be allowed in good numbers?

I'm not saying the can't be a pain, especially when they encounter problems, but that's the reason why they mostly run on weekends and bank holidays. Just because you don't think they're worth it, doesn't mean the benefits of them don't outweigh the costs overall (otherwise the operators wouldn't operate them, nor would NR/DFT allow them).

The industry has to allow them by law, if there was a choice I doubt they’d be allowed.

 

[Krokodil]

The industry has to allow them by law, if there was a choice I doubt they’d be allowed.

BR had no "open access" obligations and yet still ran charters.