Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[LNW-GW Joint]

Avanti are withdrawing the Shrewsbury service from June (DfT request apparently).

Is this just while the crewing situation is so poor, or is it a permanent thing?
The Wrexham unit is another appendage with high ECS positioning costs (starts ECS from Crewe and eventually couples to another unit at Chester).

 

[Bob Price]

Posted an image of 805005 heading to Holyhead on test in the Facebook Railcam gallery. Someone in the comments is saying these will be slower than Voyagers as they don't tilt. My impression was they would have the acceleration to make up for that and overall would do the trip in the same time.

Still don't like the livery.

 

[hexagon789]

Someone in the comments is saying these will be slower than Voyagers as they don't tilt. My impression was they would have the acceleration to make up for that and overall would do the trip in the same time.

They will be restricted to a lower speed profile.

 

[Bob Price]

So why would they buy a unit that goes slower than the ones they have?

 

[AlanL]

Avanti are withdrawing the Shrewsbury service from June (DfT request apparently).

This will be very unpopular with travellers and politicians in Shropshire and especially as the general election is due this year! It's a very bad look as the new Avanti 805s are preparing to be used from June 24. Changing trains at Birmingham NS for disabled travellers, or others with heavy luggage is not an attractive option,

 

[Bletchleyite]

This will be very unpopular with travellers and politicians in Shropshire and especially as the general election is due this year! It's a very bad look as the new Avanti 805s are preparing to be used from June 24. Changing trains at Birmingham NS for disabled travellers, or others with heavy luggage is not an attractive option,

You can change at International which southbound is cross platform. An hourly connection is generally more attractive than one train a day.

 

[craigybagel]

Avanti are withdrawing the Shrewsbury service from June (DfT request apparently).

I know there's lots of rumours about this, but has it actually been officially confirmed anywhere?

 

[Bob Price]

Changing trains at New Street is not an attractive proposition for anyone. I wonder if this is why there is talk of an Open Access provider from Shropshire which has been mentioned somewhere?

 

[AJDesiro]

Not massively surprised; with 2tph of connections via Birmingham New St/International a one off through service isn't going to be very attractive to most unless the time really suits. The unit would be better used on getting Chester closer to hourly again.

3tph from June! Maybe the increase in the WMR frequency has been the final nail in the coffin for this service. I don’t really mind, it’ll be nice to have a quieter 18:16 ex-Euston, with mostly just the people for the semifast stations.

 

[matt]

Changing trains at New Street is not an attractive proposition for anyone. I wonder if this is why there is talk of an Open Access provider from Shropshire which has been mentioned somewhere?

As mentioned above by @Bletchleyite you can avoid this by changing at Birmingham International. You can also change at Wolverhampton.

 

[AlanL]

You can change at International which southbound is cross platform. An hourly connection is generally more attractive than one train a day.

The TfW hourly service to International is hopeless, with often only 2 coaches, usually overcrowded and it regularly misses out Wellington and Telford stations when they are full and standing from Shrewsbury. A present it is being operated by very old rolling stock 150s and 158s. which is unreliable.

 

[Bob Price]

The TfW hourly service to International is hopeless, with often only 2 coaches, usually overcrowded and it regularly misses out Wellington and Telford stations when they are full and standing from Shrewsbury. A present it is being operated by very old rolling stock 150s and 158s. which is unreliable.

At the moment yes, but they are having a large fleet upgrade and plans have been mentioned for five coach trains, splitting for Aberystwyth and Cambrian Coast along the way. Could be this year.

If they run Shrewsburys then do they need less 805's?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The TfW hourly service to International is hopeless, with often only 2 coaches, usually overcrowded and it regularly misses out Wellington and Telford stations when they are full and standing from Shrewsbury. A present it is being operated by very old rolling stock 150s and 158s. which is unreliable.

None of these things will be true as the 197 rollout takes place (other than that some will be 2-car if only going to/from Aberystwyth, but they're much better at taking standees than 158s).

You can if you prefer the slower WMT service change at Wolves (and soon there'll be a faster WMT service).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So why would they buy a unit that goes slower than the ones they have?

There is no option, at least for now.
Alstom will not offer a tilting option, not least because they do not want to re-write TASS, which is obsolete and unique to the UK.
Other tilt options theoretically exist, but Network Rail/ORR won't allow tilt without TASS or equivalent to control it.
Avanti knew what the situation was when they bid for the franchise with non-tilt stock, but funded the line speed revision for MU stock (which covers 80x).
HS2 trains face the same conundrum, and will have to deal with the Weaver Jn-Glasgow section which is not being signed for MU speeds, at least yet.

Roger Ford has a fascinating analytical piece on all this in March Modern Railways.
This includes a detailed comparison of the performance difference between 390 and 80x.
He also mischievously wonders how a Pendolino at 140mph would perform on HS2 (ie the inverse of HS2 trains running on the WCML).
The time loss on London-Handsacre at lower speed would be regained by using faster tilt times on to Glasgow.

 

[92002]

This will be very unpopular with travellers and politicians in Shropshire and especially as the general election is due this year! It's a very bad look as the new Avanti 805s are preparing to be used from June 24. Changing trains at Birmingham NS for disabled travellers, or others with heavy luggage is not an attractive option,

The problem could simply be that no company currently has an approved titling 125mph train approved for use in the UK Guess more Pendolinos could be built, but there is not a dual mode version approved. When Noeth Wales is electrified that would not be a problem.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Guess more Pendolinos could be built

Seems unlikely, 20 years after their production stopped.

 

[Samzino]

Pendos are quite heavy, if they were ever to look at another tilting train I'd assume they'd look at a newer design that is lighter due to some more technological advancements since the first development of the Pendolinos.

 

[contrex]

Seems unlikely, 20 years after their production stopped.

Er, I think you meant 13?

 

[92002]

Seems unlikely, 20 years after their production stopped.

Pendolino production has stopped in the UK. However the trains are still produced in Italy for European customers. No doubt the drawings and jigs will still be available.

Slightly off topic but a recent Pendolino produced for services from Switzerland to Italy.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As Roger Ford points out, Alstom are building tilting Avelia Liberty trains for Amtrak's NE corridor (based on the AGV rather than the Pendolino).
But doubtless the USA infrastructure doesn't require TASS.

 

[92002]

As Roger Ford points out, Alstom are building tilting Avelia Liberty trains for Amtrak's NE corridor (based on the AGV rather than the Pendolino).
But doubtless the USA infrastructure doesn't require TASS.

AGV is a modern version of TGV. Like NTV operated in Italy for Italo..

 

[AJDesiro]

Pendolino production has stopped in the UK. However the trains are still produced in Italy for European customers. No doubt the drawings and jigs will still be available.

Slightly off topic but a recent Pendolino produced for services from Switzerland to Italy.

Alstom don’t offer a tilting train for the UK market anymore. TASS is obsolete and Alstom won’t built new rolling stock for it, and there’s no way the Treasury would fund for a new tilting system to be installed along lines that already use TASS.

 

[danbarjon]

Does anybody think we could see the first 805 service in the June Timetable Change?

 

[gabrielhj07]

Er, I think you meant 13?

My mistake! Forgot about the 11 car sets

 

[nlogax]

Could someone please explain to a non-railway person like me why TASS is obsolete?

 

[Efini92]

Does anybody think we could see the first 805 service in the June Timetable Change?

I wouldn’t wager on it. Training still hasn’t started on them yet.

 

[FManc]

I wouldn’t wager on it. Training still hasn’t started on them yet.

This.

It's gonna take a while to get through!

 

[Bald Rick]

I wouldn’t wager on it. Training still hasn’t started on them yet.

AIUI - it has…

 

[92002]

Could someone please explain to a non-railway person like me why TASS is obsolete?

Like all good railway systems TASS is the tilt activation and speed sensor system fitted on the Pendolinos. Which activated the tilt system on the coaches. The speed sensor bit checks that the correct speed is used by the train on curves. A bit like a black box The train picks up the information from track mounted units and ensured the correct amount of tilt is applied and the train does not overdeed

 

[baker_06]

I know there's lots of rumours about this, but has it actually been officially confirmed anywhere?

Internally, yes.