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Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

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londonbridge

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And what if your card is replaced in between booking and travelling, due to it being lost/stolen or otherwise compromised, or reaching its natural expiry date? You then have the hassle of updating your booking and linking it to the replacement card.
 

Bletchleyite

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And what if your card is replaced in between booking and travelling, due to it being lost/stolen or otherwise compromised, or reaching its natural expiry date? You then have the hassle of updating your booking and linking it to the replacement card.

I think to be honest this is well behind the time anyway. Mobile phones are clearly the future with regard to displaying Advance tickets, not debit cards (it's already how the vast majority of them are displayed), though I suppose there might be a view to moving from barcodes to NFC for easier/quicker scanning.
 

fandroid

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It strikes me that PAYG using smartphones has a lot of potential. As they have a location function, if they register that a tap-in has been done at a station, they could advise the likely fare liability being accrued as the journey progresses. Even perhaps giving a reminder that you should have tapped out once your movements cease to indicate train travel! But this in the area of speculation and that has a section all of its own.
 

Bletchleyite

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It strikes me that PAYG using smartphones has a lot of potential. As they have a location function, if they register that a tap-in has been done at a station, they could advise the likely fare liability being accrued as the journey progresses. Even perhaps giving a reminder that you should have tapped out once your movements cease to indicate train travel! But this in the area of speculation and that has a section all of its own.

SBB in Switzerland actually does offer a mobile based pay as you go system that doesn't use any fixed infrastructure at all - it's wholly based on your phone's location services. Quite clever.
 

Watershed

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Whilst I appreciate you're just using a rough definition there, you can see straight away that such a definition doesn't really work, given the lack of distinction between IC and regional services in the UK.

the GA FLIRTs only
Does that include the Stansted "Express" and regional routes around Norwich then? And even if we purely focus on London-Norwich, surely this is not really an IC service as far as passengers between between Ipswich and Stowmarket/Manningtree (and the like) are concerned?

GWR services operated using 80x except those via Oxford
So Cardiff-Penzance is now an IC service? ;)

all XC services operated using Voyagers
Are 2A00 (the 05:58 from Derby to Nottingham) or 2A01 (the 06:42 from Dundee to Aberdeen) IC services? I will perhaps grant you the latter, as it runs non-stop for over an hour (due to XC's bizarre obsession with continuing their Covid-era elimination of secondary stations). But I'm sure you can see what I'm getting at here!
 

yorkie

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Just a reminder, we do ask that posts of a speculative nature are posted in the Speculative Discussion forum please.

Unfortunately it has only just been reported to us that some posts are posted in the wrong forum/thread and it would now be a lot of work to split the thread; if anyone sees a thread go off topic and/or become speculative, please report the first such post to us, using the report button (and include any relevant details in the report such as if the issue affects any following posts). If you see a thread in the wrong section, please report the opening post.

Thanks :)
 

dastocks

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And what if your card is replaced in between booking and travelling, due to it being lost/stolen or otherwise compromised, or reaching its natural expiry date? You then have the hassle of updating your booking and linking it to the replacement card.
The most sensible option would be for users to register an account, and then link their card(s) or other payment method (e.g. mobile device) to the account. I think this is how my NS OV-ChipKaart account worked, although that still needed you to have a ChipKaart (a bit like Oyster). I understand NS have just started doing unregistered contactless as a payment method. That way you could potentially have more than one card or device linked to the account, and would be able to update the details as required.

This could also be the way to replace things like discount railcards so things like the current Network Railcard could become a simple loyalty discount that gets applied automatically by the back-office system provided you spend enough on eligible journeys in a rolling 12 month period, without having to pay additional fees and renew an annual card. Things like group discounts, family & friends, 2 together etc. could be implemented the same way by linking accounts and then have the system apply discounts as above either by spreading the discount evenly across the accounts or pushing it to a nominated account for eligible journeys.
 

Meerkat

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Personally I would like a card of some sort to be available. Particularly going round London I would rather not be getting my credit card/wallet/phone out at regular intervals - as much from the dropping chance as crime worries.
If I was commuting an Oyster wristband would be great.
 

Meglos

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And what if your card is replaced in between booking and travelling, due to it being lost/stolen or otherwise compromised, or reaching its natural expiry date? You then have the hassle of updating your booking and linking it to the replacement card.
Isn't this exactly what happens now when you pre-purchase a paper ticket over the internet, and opt to collect it from a ticket machine at the station? It doesn't seem to be a big issue for the majority of people.
 

jon81uk

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One can find out more. WhatTheyKnow is a good starting point.
TfL already pubish revenue details from incomplete journeys https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/contactless-payment

Personally I would like a card of some sort to be available. Particularly going round London I would rather not be getting my credit card/wallet/phone out at regular intervals - as much from the dropping chance as crime worries.
If I was commuting an Oyster wristband would be great.
Oyster for pay as you go use is being used less and less. Also with the fee for a card at a fixed £7 now I would be more annoyed if I lost one and had to pay another £7, whereas my bank will replace a credit card for free.
 

riceuten

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The most sensible option would be for users to register an account, and then link their card(s) or other payment method (e.g. mobile device) to the account. I think this is how my NS OV-ChipKaart account worked, although that still needed you to have a ChipKaart (a bit like Oyster). I understand NS have just started doing unregistered contactless as a payment method. That way you could potentially have more than one card or device linked to the account, and would be able to update the details as required.

This could also be the way to replace things like discount railcards so things like the current Network Railcard could become a simple loyalty discount that gets applied automatically by the back-office system provided you spend enough on eligible journeys in a rolling 12 month period, without having to pay additional fees and renew an annual card. Things like group discounts, family & friends, 2 together etc. could be implemented the same way by linking accounts and then have the system apply discounts as above either by spreading the discount evenly across the accounts or pushing it to a nominated account for eligible journeys.
Part of the problem here is that the Dutch PAYG smart card needs to be linked to a Dutch bank account domiciled in the Netherlands. I have a Dutch bank account (don't ask) but it doesn't work because I don't like there (how the tech knows this I have no idea). I can see this being an issue elsewhere. Some Americans I believe have been whacked with substantial bank charges for using their credit cards on TfL
 

BenS123

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Out of curiosity what would be the right system then?
Expanding an existing system certainly feels easiest to me.
As a user of the system, SWR Tap2Go is very convenient and can handle very long distances and allows returns and break of journey etc. It also allows auto delay repay which is a lifesaver! Tap2Go can also handle railcards.

However I'd say it's more like an oyster card than contactless, and it requires registration. Luckily it never needs topping up as it will just take the correct amount of money from my bank account at the end of each day
 

island

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Part of the problem here is that the Dutch PAYG smart card needs to be linked to a Dutch bank account domiciled in the Netherlands.
This is against EU rules; any EU bank account with an IBAN ought to be accepted.
 

JonathanH

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A perhaps too positive story in the Evening Standard about this yesterday which suggests that the 52 stations for initial extensions include stations served by Chiltern, c2c and London Northwestern Railway.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...london-commuters-trains-tickets-b1062511.html

London’s ‘tap and go’ ticketing system to be rolled out across south east England​

Transport Secretary Mark Harper says the new system will be “hassle free”
By Ross Lydall 1 day ago

Rail commuters across the South-East are set to benefit from cheaper travel under a “smart ticketing” revolution being introduced across the suburbs.

Passengers travelling in and out of the capital will be able to use pay-as-you-go at more than 230 stations – meaning they will automatically benefit from daily and weekly fares capping.

Transport Secretary Mark Harper says the new system will be “hassle free” and tackle the biggest concern of passengers – whether they are getting value for money.

Transport for London has been awarded an initial £68.7m by the Department for Transport to expand the electronic ticketing system already in use in the capital.

This will allow passengers to use bank cards or smartphones to pay for their journey rather than having to buy paper tickets or electronic tickets in advance.

An initial 52 suburban stations in the Home Counties are due to be converted by the end of the year, primarily on Chiltern, London Northwestern and C2C railways.

On Chiltern, this will benefit stations between TfL’s nine-zone network – which currently extends to Amersham and West Ruislip - and the branches north to Aylesbury and High Wycombe.

On London Northwestern, it would include stations north of Watford Junction, such as Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted and Tring.

On C2C, this would include stations from the Greater London boundary towards Southend and Shoeburyness.

A further 181 stations across the wider South-East rail network should be connected by March 2025.

The Department for Transport is due to confirm the names of the first 52 stations later this year. But TfL has begun work to upgrade the ticket barriers, under the “Project Oval” initiative.

TfL was chosen because of its work to expand smart ticketing to stations such as Reading on the Elizabeth line, and to Epsom and Luton Airport Parkway.

The DfT said the roll-out of pay-as-you-go would “improve thousands of daily commutes” and ensure passengers were charged “the best price on the day”.

With the national railways only at about 75 per cent of pre-pandemic ridership, there is also the hope that the system will encourage more weekday commuters.

Sources said the cost of pay-as-you-go would be similar to using a Travelcard for journeys on national rail from outside the capital.

At present, such passengers effectively pay for a return ticket to and from the zones 1-9 boundary, plus the cost of an all-zones Oyster card - and then enjoy unlimited travel within the capital.

Under the new system, capping would ensure the total amount they paid for their daily or weekly travel would be broadly equivalent – but with added convenience and speed.

This will also benefit passengers who pay separately for National Rail and Tube or bus tickets.

However rail chiefs admit they are facing a logistical headache to avoid creating many “winners or losers” from the new fares system.

Andrew Haines, Network Rail chief executive, told the Standard: “You have got to find a way of implementing this which either doesn’t result in loads and loads of losers, which makes it politically unacceptable, or loads and loads of winners, which means it’s financially not viable.

“What Transport for London has learned is: if you are clear with people what you are going to charge them, and they have confidence that if things go wrong the system is going to sort that out for itself, that is the biggest step to take.”

Train firms would also benefit from more precise passenger data, with the “real time” ticket information allowing them to spot changes in demand.

A second phase of Project Oval will enable passengers to travel with discounted tickets, such as a young person’s railcard.

It is “still to be resolved” whether a wider zonal system should be introduced across suburban services in the South-East to ensure passengers pay similar amounts per mile travelled, regardless of which railway they use.

There are no plans for pay-as-you go on long-distance trains. Instead, the priority is to scrap return tickets by expanding single-leg pricing, as successfully trialled on London North Eastern Railway, and to trial “airline-style” prices that vary according to demand.
I make the number of stations on c2c which aren't covered by Contactless at present to be 15. Kings Langley to Tring is 5 stations. Great Missenden and Denham to Aylesbury is a further 15, which would still leave 17 other stations to be in the first phase. If the Evening Standard can suggest

There are a few bits in this story that are hyperbole.

"benefit from cheaper travel" is all very well, but as the quote from Andrew Haines notes, it isn't possible for everyone to be a winner

"a wider zonal system" and "to ensure passengers pay similar amounts per mile travelled" is somewhat fanciful. There is no chance that the same fares would be charged from Reading to London and Shoeburyness to London

"passengers effectively pay for a return ticket to and from the zones 1-9 boundary, plus the cost of an all-zones Oyster card" masks the fact that passengers from outside London on Contactless pay extension fares such that the return ticket to the Zone 1-6 boundary is more for a through journey than an actual return ticket to the boundary.

"rail chiefs admit they are facing a logistical headache to avoid creating many “winners or losers” from the new fares system". I wonder how hard they are actually finding this.
 
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Jonny

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I believe the eventual plan for intercity journeys is that a contactless credit or debit card would be linked to a pre-booked journey and optionally a seat reservation, so that the card would replace the need for e-tickets or paper tickets.

This is model 3 in the link.

https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/policy-and-guidance/reports-publications/contactless-transit-emv-framework

And what if your card is replaced in between booking and travelling, due to it being lost/stolen or otherwise compromised, or reaching its natural expiry date? You then have the hassle of updating your booking and linking it to the replacement card.
Or if you were buying a ticket for someone else (with the intent that someone else would use it)?
 

riceuten

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This is against EU rules; any EU bank account with an IBAN ought to be accepted.
It is completely against EU rules, and 75% of "IBAN discrimination" usually comes from one country - Germany. Who also hate taking non-German debit or credit cards. But the Netherlands also appear to have a closed ecology of certain accepted cards like Maestro cards that are unavailable outside their own country. Sweden, Denmark and Norway all have a "paywave" equivalent used on public transport that is only available to holders of Swedish, Norwegian and Danish bank accounts - which you can't get without a Swedish, Norwegian or Danish residents card.

Sadly, the EU have not cracked down on any of them
 

Kite159

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benefit from cheaper travel" is all very well, but as the quote from Andrew Haines notes, it isn't possible for everyone to be a winner
I suspect winners will be those who can travel before 06:30 presuming morning peak will be '06:30-09:30' so someone touching in at 06:29 pays off-peak rather than peak.
Losers will be those who travel in the evening peak on routes which at the moment don't have any afternoon peak restrictions.
 

JonathanH

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I suspect winners will be those who can travel before 06:30 presuming morning peak will be '06:30-09:30' so someone touching in at 06:29 pays off-peak rather than peak.
That particular easement doesn't translate very well the further out of London you go, and could well be the source of a lot of revenue loss if it isn't adjusted.
 

yorkie

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That particular easement doesn't translate very well the further out of London you go, and could well be the source of a lot of revenue loss if it isn't adjusted.
It's not really an 'easement' as such. We'll just have to wait and see what happens, but contactless fares are not always cheaper than regular fares (despite what much of the population seems to think), especially when return journeys and/or railcards are involved.
 

island

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But the Netherlands also appear to have a closed ecology of certain accepted cards like Maestro cards that are unavailable outside their own country.
And woe betide any foreigners wanting to pay by card in Albert Heijn...
 

DynamicSpirit

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I suspect winners will be those who can travel before 06:30 presuming morning peak will be '06:30-09:30' so someone touching in at 06:29 pays off-peak rather than peak.
Losers will be those who travel in the evening peak on routes which at the moment don't have any afternoon peak restrictions.

Those both seem plausible. I would however expect the biggest winners to be people whose journeys are not simple out-and-back return journeys, since, if - as I'd expect - we see contactless single fares that are approximately half the price of return tickets, people making single journeys will see their fares roughly halved. I'd also expect that making those people 'winners' will cost the railway almost nothing, since the price of single tickets at present must surely mean that very few single tickets get sold, so the main impact will be to generate a bunch of new customers.
 

matt_world2004

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I suspect winners will be those who can travel before 06:30 presuming morning peak will be '06:30-09:30' so someone touching in at 06:29 pays off-peak rather than peak.
Losers will be those who travel in the evening peak on routes which at the moment don't have any afternoon peak restrictions.
Contactless fares on the Elizabeth line do not have afternoon peak restrictions going into Paddington from west of Ealing broadway or from Watford to Euston in the evening.
 

Kite159

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Contactless fares on the Elizabeth line do not have afternoon peak restrictions going into Paddington from west of Ealing broadway or from Watford to Euston in the evening.
Although there is afternoon peak on contactless fares heading away from Paddington towards stations in the west where a paper off-peak day return would be valid. Unless the cost of someone travelling from Slough to Paddington at 10am, returning to Slough around 5pm is capped at the off-peak day return.
 

778

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I suspect winners will be those who can travel before 06:30 presuming morning peak will be '06:30-09:30' so someone touching in at 06:29 pays off-peak rather than peak.
Losers will be those who travel in the evening peak on routes which at the moment don't have any afternoon peak restrictions.
Would these morning and evening peaks apply on weekends as well as weekdays?
 

JonathanH

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Would these morning and evening peaks apply on weekends as well as weekdays?
They don't apply anywhere on weekends at the moment.

Unless the cost of someone travelling from Slough to Paddington at 10am, returning to Slough around 5pm is capped at the off-peak day return.
It is capped at the off-peak travelcard price, rather than the off-peak day return.
 
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Vexed

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More losers are some GTR flows to London Thameslink where the Off Peak Day Return has no evening restrictions in any direction. From my limited look north of London these generally also have weekday Super Off Peak Day Returns which do have evening restrictions, eg Peterborough and Bedford to London Thameslink.

And from all directions (that I checked) there are even cheaper weekend-only Super Off Peak Returns which currently aren't available on contactless, interestingly from the south they are only available to London Thameslink and not London Terminals which I presume is remmence from when the GTR brands were seperate and FCC (?) introduced super Super Off Peak.

Look at the current contactless extension, for example it won't let you take advantage of a weekday Super Off Peak Day Return, costing at the moment £2.80 less than two off-peak contactless singles from St Albans City to London Thameslink. And the weekend Super Off Peak Day Return paper tickets are £10 while a two contactless singles would still be £17.20! Of course these will all go up in a week so some of those might become worse or better. Interestingly two peak contactless singles are 20p cheaper than an Anytime Day Return.
 

mattdickinson

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A perhaps too positive story in the Evening Standard about this yesterday which suggests that the 52 stations for initial extensions include stations served by Chiltern, c2c and London Northwestern Railway.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...london-commuters-trains-tickets-b1062511.html

I make the number of stations on c2c which aren't covered by Contactless at present to be 15. Kings Langley to Tring is 5 stations. Great Missenden and Denham to Aylesbury is a further 15, which would still leave 17 other stations to be in the first phase.

There are a
The St Albans branch would add another 6 stations to the LNW total.
 

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