Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[Verulamius]

No change at St Albans to fare structures as far as I know. So differential pricing for contactless and other tickets.

 

[Tw99]

Have the new contactless caps for the extended area been published, as they're also relevant to the overall discussion on price and journey timings ?

 

[akm]

Have the new contactless caps for the extended area been published, as they're also relevant to the overall discussion on price and journey timings ?

I don't believe so, no. As noted in #810, there are a number of already-accepting-contactless stations for which the cap prices don't appear to be published, so who knows...

 

[fandroid]

Forgive me for not wading through the previous 28 pages of this thread. Is there a list anywhere of the 53 stations subject to fare changes today? Are these stations the same as those involved in stage 1 of Project Oval. If there's a difference, why is that?

Are Super-Offpeak fares only being scrapped today for travel only in the future contactless area (existing + Oval stage 1)?

 

[A S Leib]

Forgive me for not wading through the previous 28 pages of this thread. Is there a list anywhere of the 53 stations subject to fare changes today? Are these stations the same as those involved in stage 1 of Project Oval. If there's a difference, why is that?

Are Super-Offpeak fares only being scrapped today for travel only in the future contactless area (existing + Oval stage 1)?

List of stage 1 stations

As far as High Wycombe, Bletchley, St. Albans Abbey, Shoeburyness, Sevenoaks, Shepperton and Windsor & Eton Riverside.

 

[Edvid]

Is there a list anywhere of the 53 stations subject to fare changes today?

To put the list in further context I've also attached a map of said stations.

Are Super-Offpeak fares only being scrapped today for travel only in the future contactless area (existing + Oval stage 1)?

Yes, certainly for journeys to/from London termini. Luton Airport Parkway and Gatwick Airport (both in existing contactless area on routes not included in Phase 1) are two examples where super off-peak fares for such journeys remain available at present.

It might be more complicated for journeys between existing contactless and Phase 1 stations, via central London or otherwise.

 

[fandroid]

To put the list in further context I've also attached a map of said stations.

Yes, certainly for journeys to/from London termini. Luton Airport Parkway and Gatwick Airport (both in existing contactless area on routes not included in Phase 1) are two examples where super off-peak fares for such journeys remain available at present.

It might be more complicated for journeys between existing contactless and Phase 1 stations, via central London or otherwise.

Thanks. I read the Times article today on this and was left utterly confused. Not a surprise really, but it would have helped massively if they'd linked to a list of the 53 stations. As could be expected, the comments to the online version just reflected most people's complete misunderstanding of the change and its extent.

 

[778]

I think I'd argue that if you want simplicity in a World where a return just costs the same as two singles, it would arguably be simpler to just scrap return tickets altogether, and move to a system where it's understood that, if you want to make a return trip, then you buy two singles.

I thought that was supposed to be happening anyway? Return tickets are going to be got rid of.

If return tickets do go I would hope that they would change the minimum fare for railcards from £13 to £6.50.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought that was supposed to be happening anyway? I thought thst return tickets were going to be got rid of.

If return tickets do go I would hope that they would change the minimum fare for railcards from £13 to £6.50.

No, day return tickets are to remain at twice the relevant single in the Oval area.

Period returns will disappear in favour of two singles, but users of these probably won't mind as, where they exist, those users will be big winners from Oval because a period return as two singles will cost the same as a day return rather than as before when it cost about a third more than a day return.

This notably means that for many medium or long distance period returns via London from the Oval area, splitting at London is going to be cheaper - potentially *much* cheaper. Day returns within the NSE area are already almost always cheaper by buying an outboundary Travelcard and a BZ6-destination return. And for a cross London journey within the Oval area in the afternoon/evening a split will be cheaper than a through ticket too, because of how they've done the restrictions.

 

[paul1609]

Eh? Looking at the map phase 2 will incorporate rather more stations in Kent than it will in Sussex! As an aside there are some near-London Kentish stations that already accept contactless payment: Knockholt, Swanley, Dartford etc.

You do realise Kent extends from the south coast right up to the London boundary!?

Technically Knockholt hasnt been a Kentish Station since 1965 which is why its in Zone 6. Although the village of the same name sucessfully completed its Glexit in 1969 to join Sevenoaks district back in Kent the station is actually (just) in Pratts Bottom part of the London Borough of Bromley. Its one of the few Zone 6 stations outside of the ULEZ.

 

[dlj83]

I’ve just been reading that the plan is to ultimately make the Oyster card an account based system like contactless, would this mean that Oyster could be used everywhere that contactless currently is?

 

[MikeWh]

I’ve just been reading that the plan is to ultimately make the Oyster card an account based system like contactless, would this mean that Oyster could be used everywhere that contactless currently is?

That is my understanding, yes. It's been the plan since before contactless started being used.

 

[JonathanH]

I’ve just been reading that the plan is to ultimately make the Oyster card an account based system like contactless, would this mean that Oyster could be used everywhere that contactless currently is?

The expansion of the area isn't clear at this stage, and isn't part of Project Oval. I think it has been said that it would need people with first generation Oyster cards to need to replace them.

That is my understanding, yes. It's been the plan since before contactless started being used.

While the move to 'back office' has long been understood as an objective, would Oyster have a much wider sphere of operation as well?

 

[Trainbike46]

The expansion of the area isn't clear at this stage, and isn't part of Project Oval. I think it has been said that it would need people with first generation Oyster cards to need to replace them.


While the move to 'back office' has long been understood as an objective, would Oyster have a much wider sphere of operation as well?

It would be a solution for the obligation TfL has under phase 2 of project oval to accept railcards in the whole area

Plus, the main reason oyster wasn't expanded is that the current way they work doesn't allow for more fare zones to cover the extra stations - so why not expand it when the technology allows

 

[Edvid]

As a reminder, details on the account-based Oyster project (named Proteus) are listed in the contract notice that TfL - as Transport Trading Ltd - issued on 14 November 2022.

TfL Revenue Collection Services - Project Proteus 24412 - Call for CompetitionTfL Revenue Collection Services - Project Proteus 24412 - Call for Competition - Find a Tender

www.find-tender.service.gov.uk

 

[hwl]

As a reminder, details on the account-based Oyster project (named Proteus) are listed in the contract notice that TfL - as Transport Trading Ltd - issued on 14 November 2022.

TfL Revenue Collection Services - Project Proteus 24412 - Call for CompetitionTfL Revenue Collection Services - Project Proteus 24412 - Call for Competition - Find a Tender

www.find-tender.service.gov.uk

Contract award expected in November 2024

 

[JaJaWa]

As a reminder, details on the account-based Oyster project (named Proteus) are listed in the contract notice that TfL - as Transport Trading Ltd - issued on 14 November 2022.

TfL Revenue Collection Services - Project Proteus 24412 - Call for CompetitionTfL Revenue Collection Services - Project Proteus 24412 - Call for Competition - Find a Tender

www.find-tender.service.gov.uk

There is a thread here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ures-in-tfl-revenue-collection-tender.239540/

Please click Report and request reopening if needed

 

[MrJeeves]

Latest (well, November's) TfL ticketing and revenue update was published: https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transp.../foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-3032-2324

Confirms PAYG daily and weekly caps for the new expansion but doesn't specify what they are (and explicitly says they won't be advertised in the "normal" way). I sense the need for an FOI incoming.

Also mentions that off peak easements will exist to allow travel into London before 0930. It also states: "This allows customers to travel on the nearest service to the normal off-peak time." I don't quite understand what this means, really.

 

[hwl]

Also mentions that off peak easements will exist to allow travel into London before 0930. It also states: "This allows customers to travel on the nearest service to the normal off-peak time." I don't quite understand what this means, really.

e.g. allowing 0929 when the next service at the station is 0944

These easements have been in place since Southern gated and oystered 15 years ago (the above example is one of the the first batch of Southern easements)

 

[MrJeeves]

Ah, got it.

 

[SWT_USER]

Is there any update on this? Any new potential 'go live' date?

Quick to bring in the fare increases by stealth, slow to provide the convenience of contactless to passengers

 

[CyrusWuff]

Is there any update on this? Any new potential 'go live' date?

Quick to bring in the fare increases by stealth, slow to provide the convenience of contactless to passengers

Latest update (taken from https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/peak/) is:

Throughout 2023, the Department for Transport, Rail Delivery Group and Transport for London have been working with train companies to allow pay as you go with contactless to be introduced to 53 additional National Rail stations in the South East of England. While completing a rigorous testing plan, some challenges were encountered, which require further work to fully address and deliver the best possible pay as you go customer experience. As a result, the decision has been taken to delay the launch of pay as you go with contactless at these stations until next spring.

A further update will be provided ahead of the launch, to ensure that customers are informed in advance of the introduction of pay as you go with contactless at these stations, as well as the benefits and convenience this will bring.

Given it's less than two months away, I seriously doubt Contactless will go live before the next fares change.

 

[MikeWh]

Given it's less than two months away, I seriously doubt Contactless will go live before the next fares change.

Given that Spring doesn't really start until March, I agree. I'm also not convinced that all the data is in the TfL systems yet.

 

[JonathanH]

From https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nr-discounts-on-london-journeys-tfl.261075/#post-6585340

I'm hearing that the railcard element has been pushed back and won't be seen for several years.

It will be interesting to see whether people happily use Contactless without the railcard discount for convenience, or persist with cheaper discounted paper tickets on the revised Oyster scale. If the pick up for Contactless is significant, and given the complicated way that off-peak fares work in the Phase 1 area, you could imagine the work on introducing railcard discounts may in time simply be forgotten.

Seems like a stealth fare rise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nr-discounts-on-london-journeys-tfl.261075/#post-6585340


It will be interesting to see whether people happily use Contactless without the railcard discount for convenience, or persist with cheaper discounted paper tickets on the revised Oyster scale. If the pick up for Contactless is significant, and given the complicated way that off-peak fares work in the Phase 1 area, you could imagine the work on introducing railcard discounts may in time simply be forgotten.

Seems like a stealth fare rise.

Wouldn't be surprised to see people give up Network Railcards for convenience, but the Family discount is huge and most of the others are for demographics that are classically time rich but cash poor, so I can't see that happening.

 

[Hadders]

From https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nr-discounts-on-london-journeys-tfl.261075/#post-6585340


It will be interesting to see whether people happily use Contactless without the railcard discount for convenience, or persist with cheaper discounted paper tickets on the revised Oyster scale. If the pick up for Contactless is significant, and given the complicated way that off-peak fares work in the Phase 1 area, you could imagine the work on introducing railcard discounts may in time simply be forgotten.

Seems like a stealth fare rise.

I have been warning about this for years!

See posts from 2019 about fares at Hertford East and Brookmans Park

Potters Bar and Brookmans Park Fare Observations

Sorry if this should probably go in an existing thread, but I didn't want to hijack any discussions. I looked into how this affects the market for someone who travels from this area to London during weekday off-peak, returns on a different day and is happy to avoid zone 1 if the journey is...

www.railforums.co.uk

March 2019 Oyster Extensions Confirmed

* Losers being those who currently get an off-peak day return that want to travel in the evening peak and those who travel at weekends. Oh, and those who want to break their journey. Although, if these people can continue to use paper tickets to make their journey...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[MrJeeves]

Latest TfL Ticketing and Revenue Update is out... Oval delayed until Summer 2024.

The planned implementation of the first phase of Project Oval (initially delayed from 03 December until later that month), has now been postponed until Summer 2024 at the earliest.

It is still hoped that the first 53 stations will be added to those already allowing customers to use contactless payment to pay for their PAYG journeys on NR in June. A further phase of the project is planned to add more stations by the end of 2024. But watch this space, as installation work and fares data for the next batch of sites will need to be completed.

One of the main drivers for the additional fares revision in December 2023, was to provide fares data for the first batch of stations which were due to accept PAYG on contactless as part of Phase I of the project. It also implemented a number of changes to NR fares to align Single fares with the proposed PAYG charges being implemented.

A side effect of this is that there are now a number of fares on POMs, where the fare to a particular station. may now be higher than that offered to a station a number of stops further down the line. This can be a bit confusing to customers but is another complexity to the ticketing system caused by certain changes not being implemented as expected.

 

[winks]

Wouldn't be surprised to see people give up Network Railcards for convenience, but the Family discount is huge and most of the others are for demographics that are classically time rich but cash poor, so I can't see that happening.

Well I certainly won’t be giving up my NSE card just because I can “tap and go” on a Gateline barrier. Far from it !

Same applies for Outboundary Day Travelcards (inc Paper!)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Latest TfL Ticketing and Revenue Update is out... Oval delayed until Summer 2024.

Where does the text you quoted come from? And what's a POM?

 

[MrJeeves]

Where's the text you quoted from?

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk