Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[Haywain]

Do we know if KeyGo will (eventually) be enabled as part of this rollout for the Thameslink served stations? Struggling to find any information.

It already is.

 

[rocket1615]

It already is.

Ah I might have been unclear sorry, does this include the bits between Eynsford and Sevenoaks?
The map provided on the Thameslink/Southern website still shows these ones as unusable.

 

[Edvid]

Ah I might have been unclear sorry, does this include the bits between Eynsford and Sevenoaks?
The map provided on the Thameslink/Southern website still shows these ones as unusable.

Project Oval concerns London-centric contactless PAYG only, not keyGo.

That stretch lies outside the keyGo area as those stations are neither managed by GTR nor located within London Zones 1-9. (Dorking Deepdene is an exception to this rule given its proximity to Dorking.)

 

[Richardr]

I fear the weekend super off peak tickets will get removed which will mean a 50% increase in fares to travel from Stevenage to London and back at the weekend.

To be fair super-off peak tickets are still available from Welwyn Garden City which has had contactless for some time, but not as part of Project Oval.

Problem is of course that it won't work if Stevenage almost doubles in price [not goes up 50%] and Hatfield / Welwyn etc. retain their existing price [another example is Luton and Luton Airport]. I share your fear with respect to other stations already in the contactless zone, or contactless will be nowhere near the price of split ticketing.

 

[londonbridge]

Any idea why the Uckfield line isn’t included along with East Grinstead? And still no sign of Tonbridge/Tunbridge Wells and/or Guildford. I’m thinking there may well be an increase in penalty fares to people arguing that they’re not exactly sure where the boundaries are and where they can/can’t tap in/out.

 

[JonathanH]

Any idea why the Uckfield line isn’t included along with East Grinstead? And still no sign of Tonbridge/Tunbridge Wells and/or Guildford. I’m thinking there may well be an increase in penalty fares to people arguing that they’re not exactly sure where the boundaries are and where they can/can’t tap in/out.

That applies wherever the boundary is drawn.

 

[MikeWh]

I've just had confirmation via the tech forum that the single fare finder (and others using the same data) will not be updated to include the Feb 2nd additions. This is supposedly a fallout from the cyber security incident. They do expect to update it in time for the March revision, which is just as well because it would be a pointless feature if they don't.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

How is one meant to know their train fare without it being in the single fare finder?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How is one meant to know their train fare without it being in the single fare finder?

You can look it up on brfares.com, look on the TVM or any journey planner site if you're after the fares for the south WCML at least, because they're the same as the Oval contactless ones. Unlike the Tube there's no "penalty" uplift for not using contactless.

(There are odd inconsistencies like how peak/off peak is determined for journeys across London and because it's determined by touch-in time for contactless and departure time for paper, but for most people they are the same)

 

[greenline712]

Simpler train travel for the South East as contactless ticketing rolls out at 47 more stations

New tap in tap out system will guarantee passengers get the best fare available at the time on the day.

www.gov.uk

Details of the rollout of Project Opal . . . including the next tranche of stations "later in 2025".

And yes . . . Luton and St Evenage are in the list !!!

 

[Watershed]

Luton and St Evenage are in the list !!!

Wonder what Evenage did to become a Saint?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wonder what Evenage did to become a Saint?

Same as Reatham did?

(Can you travel by contactless from St. Evenage to St. Reatham? I think so?)

 

[TheDavibob]

Potential odd quirk in the future:

There's currently a ticket easement 700714 which states tickets to Cambridge/Cambridge North are essentially interchangeable unless advances (a sort of lazy Cambridge Stations group, which does also sort of exist in the data but is essentially unused).

If contactless extended to Cambridge but not Cambridge North, there will be no way of completing a journey at Cambridge North on contactless, but technically a contactless journey from the Oval Zone to Cambridge (as stands) would be valid to Cambridge North.

I imagine it's most likely the easement that will change / be scrubbed, but it does highlight the boundary being at Cambridge (rather than North) is a little odd (it makes sense insofar as it's the Thameslink limit, but it does mean the Greater Anglia services from Liverpool Street have contactless valid at all but one station). Of course, if you make that argument for Cambridge North you can probably make it for Ely, and so on (ad infinitum), and it's not dissimilar to LNW to Milton Keynes (though that has a stronger reason not to be included in Project Oval).

 

[Watershed]

There's currently a ticket easement 700714 which states tickets to Cambridge/Cambridge North are essentially interchangeable unless advances (a sort of lazy Cambridge Stations group, which does also sort of exist in the data but is essentially unused).

I don't see anything to suggest that contactless travel is subject to the Routeing Guide - its validity is purely defined by the advertised areas of contactless acceptance, similarly to a ranger or rover's geographic area. Therefore I don't think you'll be able to use contactless to Cambridge North.

The non-application of the Routeing Guide is a good thing in many ways, as it means you can use non-permitted routes such as Watton-at-Stone to London via Stevenage without paying extra (at least, you will be able to if they set up an OSI between the two Stevenage gatelines). However in this particular instance it is obviously a negative.

 

[Haywain]

If contactless extended to Cambridge but not Cambridge North, there will be no way of completing a journey at Cambridge North on contactless, but technically a contactless journey from the Oval Zone to Cambridge (as stands) would be valid to Cambridge North.

The contactless area is completely irrelevant to the availability of paper tickets. If Cambridge North is outside the area, it's outside.

 

[greenline712]

And the Cambridge North conundrum is exactly why it all takes time!!
The Marston Vale line can probably only become contactless when Bedford is covered by Project OPAL.
Nothing is impossible, but sometimes it's very difficult. As I said before .... patience !!

 

[Haywain]

Details of the rollout of Project Opal .

It's Project Oval, not Opal.

 

[A S Leib]

Potential odd quirk in the future:

There's currently a ticket easement 700714 which states tickets to Cambridge/Cambridge North are essentially interchangeable unless advances (a sort of lazy Cambridge Stations group, which does also sort of exist in the data but is essentially unused).

Isn't there a vaguely similar situation for Reading and Reading West?

It's Project Oval, not Opal.

Sydney's done Opal already.

 

[greenline712]

Isn't there a vaguely similar situation for Reading and Reading West?

Sydney's done Opal already.

AARRGGHH !! OPAL was a payroll program I used in the 1990s . . . Thanks, all . . . the perils of an aged memory !!

 

[hwl]

but it does highlight the boundary being at Cambridge (rather than North) is a little odd (it makes sense insofar as it's the Thameslink limit, but it does mean the Greater Anglia services from Liverpool Street have contactless valid at all but one station). Of course, if you make that argument for Cambridge North you can probably make it for Ely, and so on (ad infinitum), and it's not dissimilar to LNW to Milton Keynes (though that has a stronger reason not to be included in Project Oval).

Isn't there a vaguely similar situation for Reading and Reading West?

The list originated a very long time ago in a far distance pre covid past when the contactless card threshold was much lower than it is now...
The former contractless card threshold and not wanting too huge a list of additional stations so it wouldn't take too long to roll out (oops a Boris manifesto commitment, and now 3 PMs later) were some of the key drivers.

There will be pressure to add more as soon as the rollout is complete and the contactless limit problems has gone from the reasonable list of expansion excuses the but DfT probably won't be too keen as it has take a lot longer than hoped and the revenue impact is much worst than anticipated.

 

[MikeWh]

and the contactless limit problems has gone from the reasonable list of expansion excuses

Sorry to be pedantic but there is no limit when using contactless in transit mode.

 

[hwl]

Sorry to be pedantic but there is no limit when using contactless in transit mode.

This was the key document in place at the time the list for for non-TfL travel:

https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/system/files/UK-Finance-Contactless-Transit-EMV-Framework.pdf

Note the £30 limit mentioned all over the document and DfT used this assumption when drawing up Oval station plans...

 

[MikeWh]

This was the key document in place at the time the list for for non-TfL travel:

https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/system/files/UK-Finance-Contactless-Transit-EMV-Framework.pdf

Note the £30 limit mentioned all over the document and DfT used this assumption when drawing up Oval station plans...

Well that is strange because when I attended a briefing at TfL prior to the launch of contactless it was made very clear that because transit mode is an authorised system, albeit behind the scenes, there is no limit. The eventual transaction is submitted overnight as a single transaction. During that 24 hours you could have made all manner of journeys, including multiple GatEx or HEx or HS1 journeys where no cap applies.

 

[MrJeeves]

Note the £30 limit mentioned all over the document and DfT used this assumption when drawing up Oval station plans...

Did you miss the bit under Method 2 — Aggregated payment:

The potential exists to exceed the £30 contactless limit in the settlement process (although this is not encouraged from a customer confusion perspective).

 

[weeklycommuter]

Potential odd quirk in the future:

There's currently a ticket easement 700714 which states tickets to Cambridge/Cambridge North are essentially interchangeable unless advances (a sort of lazy Cambridge Stations group, which does also sort of exist in the data but is essentially unused).
If contactless extended to Cambridge but not Cambridge North, there will be no way of completing a journey at Cambridge North on contactless, but technically a contactless journey from the Oval Zone to Cambridge (as stands) would be valid to Cambridge North.
I imagine it's most likely the easement that will change / be scrubbed, but it does highlight the boundary being at Cambridge (rather than North) is a little odd (it makes sense insofar as it's the Thameslink limit, but it does mean the Greater Anglia services from Liverpool Street have contactless valid at all but one station). Of course, if you make that argument for Cambridge North you can probably make it for Ely, and so on (ad infinitum), and it's not dissimilar to LNW to Milton Keynes (though that has a stronger reason not to be included in Project Oval).

Announcements about future contactless extensions so far only go as far as Baldock and Stansted Airport. If contactless is extended to Cambridge it would make sense to to include all three Cambridge stations: Cambridge South, Cambridge and Cambridge North.

 

[Haywain]

If contactless is extended to Cambridge it would make sense to to include all three Cambridge stations: Cambridge South, Cambridge and Cambridge North.

It might seem to make sense but ultimately the lines have to be drawn somewhere.

 

[weeklycommuter]

It might seem to make sense but ultimately the lines have to be drawn somewhere.

Cambridge North would be the best end station for contactless as it has ticket gates and the Greater Anglia train services from London Liverpool Street to Cambridge end at Cambridge North. All stations served by the two Greater Anglia trains each hour from London Liverpool Street to Cambridge would then have contactless.

 

[Kite159]

I don't see anything to suggest that contactless travel is subject to the Routeing Guide - its validity is purely defined by the advertised areas of contactless acceptance, similarly to a ranger or rover's geographic area. Therefore I don't think you'll be able to use contactless to Cambridge North.

The non-application of the Routeing Guide is a good thing in many ways, as it means you can use non-permitted routes such as Watton-at-Stone to London via Stevenage without paying extra (at least, you will be able to if they set up an OSI between the two Stevenage gatelines). However in this particular instance it is obviously a negative.

Although no doubt they will probably charge extra for Watton-at-Stone to London via Stevenage compared to going direct. Unlike other examples in the contactless area where someone can catch a fast train and 'double back' to the last stop served by the stopper [Euston - Watford High Street via Watford Junction, Paddington - Twyford via Reading, Liverpool Street - Brentwood via Shenfield] there are barriers between platforms at Stevenage so the system will know that someone has travelled via Stevenage.

 

[hwl]

Well that is strange because when I attended a briefing at TfL prior to the launch of contactless it was made very clear that because transit mode is an authorised system, albeit behind the scenes, there is no limit. The eventual transaction is submitted overnight as a single transaction. During that 24 hours you could have made all manner of journeys, including multiple GatEx or HEx or HS1 journeys where no cap applies.

DfT and the £30 limit (or rather about £27 at the time to allow for a bit of fare inflation before they expected the contactless cap to rise) all pre existed TfL's involvement (and good standing with the payments industry) and was focused on individual journeys not daily aggregations. Part of the concern was large numbers of expensive journey in one day hence keeping individual journey cost limit down.

 

[MikeWh]

DfT and the £30 limit (or rather about £27 at the time to allow for a bit of fare inflation before they expected the contactless cap to rise) all pre existed TfL's involvement (and good standing with the payments industry) and was focused on individual journeys not daily aggregations. Part of the concern was large numbers of expensive journey in one day hence keeping individual journey cost limit down.

That makes some sense. So it was originally going to be single journeys rather than a daily aggregate. It has to be said that TfL's involvement was quite crucial because it was they, along with the payments industry, who specified and designed the whole transit mode system. It has since been copied all over the world. Also, when TfL contactless started the normal contactless limit was £30. I remember explaining to mutiple people that transit mode was different and the limit didn't apply.