Proposed new SWT services for Yeovil, including Pen Mill via Westbury/Frome

[221129]

They should leave it to First to run services, a proper company.

Please say you're kidding...

 

[21C101]

Please say you're kidding...

I think he may have been being sarcastic.....

 

[embers25]

PS - a sudden thought, does the introduction of through services between the two Yeovil stations have much of an effect on routeing and fares?

Yes it has a VERY major effect on a few fares that for obvious reasons I won't mention here in case they aren't aware and so I applaud SWT for their creativity through gritted teeth. The new services may provide better connections at Westbury for route Salisbury-Westbury tickets though.

 

[21C101]

Yes it has a VERY major effect on a few fares that for obvious reasons I won't mention here in case they aren't aware and so I applaud SWT for their creativity through gritted teeth. The new services may provide better connections at Westbury for route Salisbury-Westbury tickets though.

I would guess that most are fairly rare journeys such as Bruton to London Terminals and if this service is well used FGW will end up better off than before as part of a lot is more than all of a little.

Doubt Yeovil will make much difference as FGW will already get some of Yeovil to London terminals and SWT routing trains that way mean they FGW might get more eg yeovil Jct to Padd changing at Westbury so actually get more of Yeovils ORCATS pot.

 

[Parallel]

Very exciting to see finally something rail related happening in and around Yeovil. Some of the proposed services seem a little unusual but it makes sense to get the most out of these lines. Services on the Heart Of Wessex line has been poor for too long, especially Frome, Bruton, Yeovil Pen Mill and Dorchester West.

Pen Mill isn't centrally located but it's easier to access the town from here than Junction. It's a shame Yeovil Town isn't still open - Why was it closed and the other two left open? Did the whole line close?

The only thing I worry about is the summer Weymouth trains. I kept a record of punctuality with FGW services on this line last summer, and it was pretty bad, probably due to overcrowding, short turn around times in some places and the single line, I'm wondering if additional services to the line will make it even worse?

Hats off to Stagecoach however in providing extra services. Hopefully FGW will be able to provide better capacity too after cascading of stock from electrification. The Devon Metro, Dorset (Heart Of Wessex, in summer), Somerset and Wiltshire could all do with capacity improvements.

 

[Philip C]

As to the direct service on Summer Sats to Weymouth via Sherborne. Is there any other service in Europe or the world that reverses twice at adjacent stations?

The answer to most quirky railway questions is Limerick Junction. In this case it might not quite fit, but the old arrangement whereby Limerick to Waterford trains reversed four times in calling at one station at least merits a mention! I suspect that the current practice only requires two reversals for the same purpose.

 

[anme]

Not really. The whole Cross Country franchise was once described as "the biggest Orcats Raid going".

Presumably by someone who didn't know that Cross Country services ran before ORCATS existed.

 

[VisualAcid]

2) Two a day Waterloo to Yeovil Junction via Westbury & Pen Mill

Could someone explain this routing for me? Waterloo to Salisbury then up to Westbury and back down to Yeovil? Thanks

 

[fgwrich]

2) Two a day Waterloo to Yeovil Junction via Westbury & Pen Mill

Could someone explain this routing for me? Waterloo to Salisbury then up to Westbury and back down to Yeovil? Thanks

This one is one of the lessor surprises as SWT have ran this way during engineering works on the WOE between Salisbury and Yeovil before.

Normal Waterloo, Woking, Basingstoke, Andover, Salisbury, through Warminster to Westbury - reverse, Bruton/Castle Cary to Yeovil Pen Mill and up to the Junction.

That Waterloo - Wareham (poss Norden) service via the Heart of Wessex is interesting though. 3 if not 4 potential reversals on route will keep the crew busy!

 

[Tom]

That Waterloo - Wareham (poss Norden) service via the Heart of Wessex is interesting though. 3 if not 4 potential reversals on route will keep the crew busy!

The Waterloo-Wareham is direct via the mainline via Southampton & Bournemouth. The summer Saturday Waterloo-Weymouth via Salisbury is not.

 

[DelW]

As to the direct service on Summer Sats to Weymouth via Sherborne. Is there any other service in Europe or the world that reverses twice at adjacent stations?

I don't know whether you would include diversions, but this is quite a common one. When the Badminton line is closed, FGW run London to South Wales services reversing at Temple Meads and Parkway. Travelling on occasional Sunday mornings over the last few years, we have run that way more often than not, sometimes via the B&H and sometimes via Box. Last year diversion via Gloucester became more common because of works in Severn Tunnel.

 

[30907]

I don't know whether you would include diversions, but this is quite a common one. When the Badminton line is closed, FGW run London to South Wales services reversing at Temple Meads and Parkway. Travelling on occasional Sunday mornings over the last few years, we have run that way more often than not, sometimes via the B&H and sometimes via Box. Last year diversion via Gloucester became more common because of works in Severn Tunnel.

I think that has appeared in the printed timetable so certainly counts. It has the bonus of keeping the HST right way round. However, in pedant mode, they are not adjacent stations.

 

[swt_passenger]

Presumably by someone who didn't know that Cross Country services ran before ORCATS existed.

I think it was used in respect of the early XC Operation Princess attempt to increase frequencies to all sorts of places (and subsequently removed from their network because it just didn't work).

To that extent some of those extra XC trains would be seen as an Orcats raid, but I stand by the point that Devon Metro isn't the same at all, because it is DfT inspired.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

And Arriva XC do have form in fares raids - notably becoming fare-setter for Warwickshire-Birmingham fares (previously Chiltern) and then ratcheting up the off-peak restrictions as per usual.

 

[Taunton]

And Arriva XC do have form in fares raids - notably becoming fare-setter for Warwickshire-Birmingham fares (previously Chiltern) and then ratcheting up the off-peak restrictions as per usual.

The comment was made back in Virgin XC days at the start of the Voyagers.

Yeovil has almost the same population as Salisbury but only a tenth of the passengers at the Junction station so there is a market there

I am surprised that Yeovil only generates one tenth of Salisbury. Certainly in the early 1970s when the arguments about whether Paddington or Waterloo should have been the main route to Devon and Cornwall (never died down, has it) I recall it being stated that Taunton produced as many passengers for London as Salisbury did. Probably a bit different now as Salisbury is almost London commuter territory now, not then, but even so for Yeovil to have fallen so far behind is striking. I wonder what it was then.

On the other hand, recalling the rural quiet of The Junction for most of the day, maybe I shouldn't be so surprised.

 

[21C101]

The comment was made back in Virgin XC days at the start of the Voyagers.


I am surprised that Yeovil only generates one tenth of Salisbury. Certainly in the early 1970s when the arguments about whether Paddington or Waterloo should have been the main route to Devon and Cornwall (never died down, has it) I recall it being stated that Taunton produced as many passengers for London as Salisbury did. Probably a bit different now as Salisbury is almost London commuter territory now, not then, but even so for Yeovil to have fallen so far behind is striking. I wonder what it was then.

On the other hand, recalling the rural quiet of The Junction for most of the day, maybe I shouldn't be so surprised.

I got the figures from Wikipedia. It gives Taunton in 2013/14 as 1.262 million, about half of Salisbury.

Interestingly the figures for Taunton have fallen in both of the last two years from 1.293 million in 2011/12.

During the same period, Axminster passengers have gone from 0.281 million to 0.356 million, Honiton up from 0.354 million to 0.395 million and Crewkerne up 6,000 to 131,000.

There would appear to have been singificant switching by people in the catchment area south of Taunton to Axminster since SWT introduced the hourly clockface services.

Also during the last 10 years use of Exeter Central has nearly doubled from 1 million to 1.943 million and is on course to overtake Exeter St Davids (which has pax falling down 45,000 last year to 2.356 million). While a goodly number of them are Devon Metro users, it is likely that Exeter pax are also switching to the clockface service, at much lower prices and of course people visiting Exeter will do so as the Waterloo service drops you in the town Centre.

Yeovil Junction (pop 40,000) where 2013/14 pax numbers are below 2008/09 usage is the only station on the line west of Salisbury not seeing good growth and now has 27,000 less pax per year than Tisbury (pop 2,056) and 1,000 less pax per year than Sherborne (pop 9,523). Yeovil Pen Mill use is rising with pax now about 2/3 that of Junction at 133,000 and Castle Cary (pop 2,276) has 32,000 pax more a year than Yeovil Jct.

In that context, perhaps this announcement is not so surprising......


Inidentally, 2013/14 totalpax of Westbury+Castle Cary+Taunton+Tiverton Pkway is 2,401,000. Total pax of Tisbury to Pinhoe inclusive is just behind it at 2,261,984

 

[Taunton]

I got the figures from Wikipedia. It gives Taunton in 2013/14 as 1.262 million, about half of Salisbury.

Taunton people mainly head for London, Bristol, or northwards up the Cross Country line. Strangely there has always been very little commerce or link between Taunton and Exeter - I can hardly remember ever going there. Salisbury in comparison is at a rail crossroads, and probably does a lot of connections which Taunton doesn't have. Southampton is easy commuting and likewise Basingstoke. If there is much daily commuting from Taunton to anywhere it's come recently.

 

[infobleep]

SWT have submitted a track access request for additional services from December 2015. All Yeovil Junction terminators to go forward to Yeovil Pen Mill.

There's also a couple of Waterloo services a day to/from Yeovil stations via Westbury and Frome. Either as an extension of a Salisbury terminator or splitting from an Exeter service at Salisbury.

Also Summer Saturday Only services to Weymouth via Salisbury, Yeovil Junction and Yeovil Pen Mill.

Looks good. I wonder what FGW will have to say...

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse... 22 - closes 23 march 2015/58th sa form p.pdf

How would this affect maintenance and leasing costs of the diesel trains? Obviously South West Trains think they can make enough money to cover the additional millage costs.

 

[Kite159]

As to the direct service on Summer Sats to Weymouth via Sherborne. Is there any other service in Europe or the world that reverses twice at adjacent stations?

Shrewsbury to Newport via the Heart of Wales

Reverses at Llanelli & Swansea (skips Gowerton) so adjacent station calls with reversals, i.e http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C32183/2015/02/28

----

I wonder with the new services they will put a hourly service which calls at all the stations between Salisbury & Basingstoke (like they had during the Sunday diversions) rather than the 2 hourly alternating calls [with a 7-odd minute wait at Basingstoke]

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Taunton people mainly head for London, Bristol, or northwards up the Cross Country line. Strangely there has always been very little commerce or link between Taunton and Exeter - I can hardly remember ever going there. Salisbury in comparison is at a rail crossroads, and probably does a lot of connections which Taunton doesn't have. Southampton is easy commuting and likewise Basingstoke. If there is much daily commuting from Taunton to anywhere it's come recently.

You seem to forget that Taunton used to be a major railhead with lines to Barnstaple, Chard via Ilminster, Minehead & Yeovil Town via Langport & Martock, both the Barnstaple & Yeovil lines being victims of Beeching.

If all of those lines were still available for passengers then the passenger numbers (figures) would undoubtedly be a lot higher. What doesn't help Taunton is FGW's fares, lack of parking and it's also a considerable distance from the town centre. And Station Road isn't exactly the best advertisement for the town centre which is pretty good for shopping.

 

[21C101]

You seem to forget that Taunton used to be a major railhead with lines to Barnstaple, Chard via Ilminster, Minehead & Yeovil Town via Langport & Martock, both the Barnstaple & Yeovil lines being victims of Beeching.

If all of those lines were still available for passengers then the passenger numbers (figures) would undoubtedly be a lot higher. What doesn't help Taunton is FGW's fares, lack of parking and it's also a considerable distance from the town centre. And Station Road isn't exactly the best advertisement for the town centre which is pretty good for shopping.

Indeed, Taunton, Anytime Return £231, Offpeak Return £92. Fastest train 1h 42 mins, however departure times and journey times are erratic with some trains taking longer than those on the LSWR route at 2h 50m. Roughly hourly but some two hour gaps in direct services (unless you fancy going via Bristol). Plus, awkward journey across town to the station and long walk including stairs to platform from car park. High back seats in aircraft formation that don't line up with the window. Crap bus interchange, you have to walk into town for a bus to Chard.

Alternative Crewkerne. Anytime Return £114.20, Offpeak Return £59.50. first Class anytime return at £188 nearly £50 cheaper than Taunton Standard anytime return. Fastest Train. 2h 30. However all trains take this time give or take a minute or two and all leave at the same time hourly, seven days a week except early morning/late evening. Clockface hourly service without any two hour gaps. Congestion free location not far from A30 and you can park at the back of the platform fence with step free access. Comfy, deep cushion seats with many in 2+2 with tables and they line up with the window. Reasonably good bus interchange. Stagecoach 99 hourly to Crewkerne Town Centre, Chard (and Taunton - eventually) stops outside the station.

Oddly though, Taunton to Exeter (£21.80 anytime, £16.50 offpeak, £11.40 offpeak day) is far cheaper than Crewkerne to Exeter £26.10 offpeak, £15.60 offpeak day, (no peak fare applies)

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Maybe once the IEPs are being used on Padd - Bristol & Wales services in quantity, a few extra HSTs will be able to provide a ½ hourly service from Exeter to Padd via Taunton, with hourly from Penzance/Plymouth.

That should eliminate the gaps in service.

 

[swt_passenger]

Maybe once the IEPs are being used on Padd - Bristol & Wales services in quantity, a few extra HSTs will be able to provide a ½ hourly service from Exeter to Padd via Taunton, with hourly from Penzance/Plymouth.

An extra Taunton or Exeter to Paddington service in between the existing Plymouth/Penzance was already proposed (although using IEPs) in the DfT's draft timetables.

 

[21C101]

An extra Taunton or Exeter to Paddington service in between the existing Plymouth/Penzance was already proposed (although using IEPs) in the DfT's draft timetables.

The extra trains will presumably be semi fast trains like the current semi fasts, such as the 08.18 SO Paddington to Exeter, calling at Reading, Theale, Thatcham, Newbury, Hungerford, Pewsey, Westbury and Castle Cary and taking 2h 22mins (as opposed to 1h 40 for a fast).

So unless they want to add stops at Taunton onto the 10.06 (Cornish Rivera) and 12.06 which currently call Reading, Exeter only before going onto Penzance, you will still effectively have two hour gaps from 09.06 to 11.06 and from 11.06 to 13.06 which killed any idea of me trying to go to Chard from Paddington.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

'Modern Railways' this month reports a possible further IEP order to replace HSTs on Paddington - West of England services. Presumably they would be bi-mode to take advantage of the 'juice' to Newbury but I thought the issue was that they are too under-powered in diesel mode to tackle the South Devon banks - hence only being permitted to run to Exeter and Torbay? It also speculates on the possible 'South West' franchise, suggesting that the LSW route via Yeovil is also included, allowing 'GW and SWT to concentrate on overhead and third rail electric services respectively'. Interesting times.

 

[swt_passenger]

'Modern Railways' this month reports a possible further IEP order to replace HSTs on Paddington - West of England services. Presumably they would be bi-mode to take advantage of the 'juice' to Newbury but I thought the issue was that they are too under-powered in diesel mode to tackle the South Devon banks...

The power limitation only applied to the 10 car bi-mode in the original layout with an electric power car at one end, and a diesel power car at the other.

The bi-mode as eventually ordered has multiple power packs throughout the train and no longer has this limitation, all according to Roger Ford a few years ago now.

 

[TheWalrus]

The extra trains will presumably be semi fast trains like the current semi fasts, such as the 08.18 SO Paddington to Exeter, calling at Reading, Theale, Thatcham, Newbury, Hungerford, Pewsey, Westbury and Castle Cary and taking 2h 22mins (as opposed to 1h 40 for a fast).

So unless they want to add stops at Taunton onto the 10.06 (Cornish Rivera) and 12.06 which currently call Reading, Exeter only before going onto Penzance, you will still effectively have two hour gaps from 09.06 to 11.06 and from 11.06 to 13.06 which killed any idea of me trying to go to Chard from Paddington.

Doesn't it call at Bedwyn now?

 

[21C101]

'Modern Railways' this month reports a possible further IEP order to replace HSTs on Paddington - West of England services. Presumably they would be bi-mode to take advantage of the 'juice' to Newbury but I thought the issue was that they are too under-powered in diesel mode to tackle the South Devon banks - hence only being permitted to run to Exeter and Torbay? It also speculates on the possible 'South West' franchise, suggesting that the LSW route via Yeovil is also included, allowing 'GW and SWT to concentrate on overhead and third rail electric services respectively'. Interesting times.

I hope not, it would be a disaster for the Southern route to be back under "WR" management - or indeed any common management with the GW route.

Something similar was considered a few years back when the Wessex Trains franchise was renewed and then ditched very rapidly because of the problems another franchise operating two an hour on the fast line to Waterloo would cause.

I suspect it is indeed just speculation (which is a polite word for B*ll*x) After all only a small part of the GW is being electrified, the main line to Swansea and spurs to Newbury/Oxford. That still leaves the Cotswold Line, the Golden Valley Line, Bristol - Taunton, Cheltenham to Bristol, Bristol to Portsmouth, Oxford to Banbury, non electric as well as the west country lines.

-------------------------------

Far better to leave Waterloo-Exeter it with SWT and hand over the Barnstaple, Exmouth and Gunnislake Branches along with Bristol - Portsmouth and Bristol/Swindon - Westbury - Weymouth to SWT too

If services from Paddington are terminated at Exeter Central (via Exeter St Davids) then the Crosscountry trains could be extended to Penzance instead. These are much more suitable being short voyager sets rather than continuing to wastefully send entire HSTs all the way down to Penzane. Cross Country could then take over the Cornish Branches and Torbay branch too. Plymouth will still have have a through service to Waterloo instead via Tavistock and some trains from Waterloo could divide at St Davids to provide through trains to Paignton.

With only a service to Exeter from Paddington it would probably be sensible to single the line between Bedwyn and Taunton and close the Westbury and Frome avoiding lines.

 

[higthomas]

I hope not, it would be a disaster for the Southern route to be back under "WR" management - or indeed any common management with the GW route.

Why?
If they are a good franchise who thinks it will make money they will run it well, if not they won't. This sounds like some kind of WR hates SR and visa versa, whice I cannot believe is still so true that a sensible management who wanted to make money and valued the route could not overcome.

Far better to leave Waterloo-Exeter it with SWT and hand over the Barnstaple, Exmouth and Gunnislake Branches along with Bristol - Portsmouth and Bristol/Swindon - Westbury - Weymouth to SWT too.

Hmm.

If services from Paddington are terminated at Exeter Central (via Exeter St Davids) then the Crosscountry trains could be extended to Penzance instead. These are much more suitable being short voyager sets rather than continuing to wastefully send entire HSTs all the way down to Penzance. Cross Country could then take over the Cornish Branches and Torbay branch too. Plymouth will still have have a through service to Waterloo instead via Tavistock and some trains from Waterloo could divide at St Davids to provide through trains to Paignton.

With only a service to Exeter from Paddington it would probably be sensible to single the line between Bedwyn and Taunton and close the Westbury and Frome avoiding lines.

I hope your joking there.

 

[Parallel]

I do not see anything happening to the Cardiff - Portsmouth line anytime soon. As some have said before, it's one of the most profitable routes FGW run in the west and I think it would be a shame to chop these services at Bristol (for operational reasons or whatever else) as you get a lot of passengers travelling from stations south of Bristol to stations north to Bristol on this line. The Taunton - Cardiff train arguably acts as two stopping services merged together.

I fail to see what difference transferring FGW services to SWT will achieve. I think Cardiff - Portsmouths need an extra carriage per service but that's something that may well be solved after electrification of the Thames Valley anyway. I doubt SWT will be interested in Weymouth - Bristol.

(I like SWT but if they take on these lines, they'll probably end up with the same delays, overcrowding and stretched stock as FGW currently have)