Pushchairs on trains

[attics26]

cannot decide where to post this but I have a regular but time varied passgr who has a son in a wheelchair and he cannot bend his legs, the booked wheelchair space is useless for him and he is better off staying in the vestibule, obvs they must book wheelchair space but whilst I know the vestibule is the best place what if the guard doesn't agree, local knowledge over rules? ( journey is 1 at most 2 stops)

 

[londiscape]

Okay hello everyone.
This is Tash, Maya carer and cousin (Maya is what we call her)
She’s been a little upset and het up on here, as she gets. Apologies for anything inappropriate however please do remember she isn’t always aware of what she says may not be appropriate. She might seem articulate and yes she is correct in saying she is a Masters student but she has no filter button!
This incident did upset her greatly. I heard what was going on as she rang me because she was frightened and I heard the shouts of the woman (yes, she was shouting) and I could actually hear the clangs as her wheelchair was hit. When I picked her up at Nottingham she was crying that her legs hurt and next day they were purple in places with bruising. She suffers with allodynia (extreme pain to the smallest of touches) and this was excruciating to her.
From what I heard this wasn’t a case of an ‘appropriate reaction’ it was far from appropriate. I would almost go as far as saying she was being attacked.
The conductor was nowhere in sight (or so she says) but she cannot communicate face to face with men she doesn’t know due to a previous assault so she could not even tell him what was going on or what had happened.
I hope this clarifies for everyone. I will remove her from here for now while she calms down.
Thanks
Tash

How the hell has maire23 been demonised here for a horrible experience? Not speaking English as a first language isn't an excuse for rudeness. Those who think it is acceptable for a non-native English speaker to bang a wheelchair and say "you move" need to have a good think about themselves and stop insinuating racism where it doesn't exist. That is all.

 

[MCSHF007]

How the hell has maire23 been demonised here for a horrible experience? Not speaking English as a first language isn't an excuse for rudeness. Those who think it is acceptable for a non-native English speaker to bang a wheelchair and say "you move" need to have a good think about themselves and stop insinuating racism where it doesn't exist. That is all.

This. Well said.

 

[Raul_Duke]

How the hell has maire23 been demonised here for a horrible experience? Not speaking English as a first language isn't an excuse for rudeness. Those who think it is acceptable for a non-native English speaker to bang a wheelchair and say "you move" need to have a good think about themselves and stop insinuating racism where it doesn't exist. That is all.

If you’re referring to me, I never said it was acceptable. I merely asked what the level of English had to do with it.

That’s not an insinuation of racism.

But certainly, thanks for your comments.

That is all.

 

[pt_mad]

They are allowed to go to the toilet, so it is clearly safe for them to be elsewhere too.

Well if staff just placed the ramp down, watched the wheelchair user board and left them to it regardless of whether the wheelchair space had buggies in it, what's the chances the wheelchair user wouldn't end up forced to just sit in the vestibule?

Which is not supposed to be safe.

And what if the guard was several carriages down on a long train? How could anyone be sure the guard would get up to the wheelchair area? If it was busy the guard might not even be able to move around the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well if staff just placed the ramp down, watched the wheelchair user board and left them to it regardless of whether the wheelchair space had buggies in it, what's the chances the wheelchair user wouldn't end up forced to just sit in the vestibule?

Which is not supposed to be safe.

And what if the guard was several carriages down on a long train? How could anyone be sure the guard would get up to the wheelchair area? If it was busy the guard might not even be able to move around the train.

Is there no formal handover to the guard? If not there needs to be, and that would solve all of those problems.

There needs to be someone responsible for and accountable to an assistance passenger at all times for the service to be effective.

 

[martian boy]

Reading through this thread with interest. I well remember the old class 116 DMUs we used to travel on when growing up, late 1960s, and through the 1970s. The guards van, has we called it, has massive space available. My mother would take the pram, later the pushchair, into this area without any problem. Generally she was only travelling between Porth and Pontypridd. Sometimes to Cardiff and Barry.

Roll forward to the 1980s, one anti-rail government and an army of accountants. The guards van was not included in the new Sprinters, and they were cut back to two car formation. A similar thing happened on the mainlines where locomotive hauled coaching stock was replaced by these monstrosities. All in the name of profit.

Take me back to the 1970s, two three car class 116 units with a guards van in each set, and redesign the present monstrosities. If the guards van had been kept, most of todays problems, wheelchair vs. buggy would not come about.

 

[Ianno87]

Is there no formal handover to the guard? If not there needs to be, and that would solve all of those problems.

There needs to be someone responsible for and accountable to an assistance passenger at all times for the service to be effective.

[Not a criticism - just a genuine question/observation]

Wheelchair users are independent adults too. They shouldn't have to have a member of staff 'responsible' for them. No other passengers do. The onus is on staff to have suitable staff to assist with boarding/alighting etc, and on the train to make sure they are able to use the appropriate space.


Of course there is a fine line to a 'vulnerable' wheelchair user, e.g. very elderley (although in most cases they'd have a travel companion anyway).

Just a thought, but has anyone considered on sticking their child in one of those wheely cases and have them poking their head out the top?

It'll take up less room, plus it'd fit in the airline seats.

Tempting, but probably constitutes neglect...

 

[Bletchleyite]

[Not a criticism - just a genuine question/observation]

Wheelchair users are independent adults too. They shouldn't have to have a member of staff 'responsible' for them. No other passengers do. The onus is on staff to have suitable staff to assist with boarding/alighting etc, and on the train to make sure they are able to use the appropriate space.

Which is best done by having one person who is always responsible for these things happening at any one time, and is required to transfer that responsibility in person to someone else before they may leave the train.

I've seen wheelchair users forgotten on trains countless times (as well as the less serious issue of bicycles on Pendolinos where the external door is not passenger operable). Having a handover at every point of transfer would resolve that.

When on a train a wheelchair user is not an independent adult, as they have no means of leaving the coach in which they are located nor of contacting a member of staff if the staff are not on board. They are not capable of leaving the train alone neither when they wish to nor in emergency. Therefore they do need someone responsible for them - not to patronise them, but to ensure their safety and convenience.

 

[Ianno87]

Which is best done by having one person who is always responsible for these things happening at any one time, and is required to transfer that responsibility in person to someone else before they may leave the train.

I've seen wheelchair users forgotten on trains countless times (as well as the less serious issue of bicycles on Pendolinos where the external door is not passenger operable). Having a handover at every point of transfer would resolve that.

When on a train a wheelchair user is not an independent adult, as they have no means of leaving the coach in which they are located nor of contacting a member of staff if the staff are not on board. They are not capable of leaving the train alone neither when they wish to nor in emergency. Therefore they do need someone responsible for them - not to patronise them, but to ensure their safety and convenience.

I suppose that in an office (for example) it is a line manager (or for visitors, facilities/hosts) responsibility to have a Personal Evacuation Plan for any person of restricted mobility.

Logically, on a train journey that duty of care does indeed fall on on-train staff.

I guess a 'handover' just needs to be a behnd the scenes consistent agreed industry/TOC process, not an overt in-front-of-the-passenger "They're you're responsibilty now"-type conversation, which is (as you suggest) patronising.

 

[LowLevel]

I suppose that in an office (for example) it is a line manager (or for visitors, facilities/hosts) responsibility to have a Personal Evacuation Plan for any person of restricted mobility.

Logically, on a train journey that duty of care does indeed fall on on-train staff.

I guess a 'handover' just needs to be a behnd the scenes consistent agreed industry/TOC process, not an overt in-front-of-the-passenger "They're you're responsibilty now"-type conversation, which is (as you suggest) patronising.

It isn't and doesn't need to be any such thing. Generally a 2 second conversation between ourselves out of the way along the line of 'hello mate, you've got someone in a wheelchair/ a VIP (visually impaired person)/whatever other assistance someone might need in coach A, they're off to 'X', I'll give them a ring/can you help them please'.

I usually then wander by and introduce myself, check all is well and that their travel plans reflect what's been told to me, ask what help they need and leave it at that.

Particularly if they're confined to a wheelchair or visually impaired in a strange environment as the guard they're definitely my responsibility as I might need to organise their rescue in an emergency - our trains are finally being fitted with call for aid buttons that broadcast 'attention conductor - call for aid operated' over the tannoy.

 

[Bromley boy]

When on a train a wheelchair user is not an independent adult, as they have no means of leaving the coach in which they are located nor of contacting a member of staff if the staff are not on board. They are not capable of leaving the train alone neither when they wish to nor in emergency. Therefore they do need someone responsible for them - not to patronise them, but to ensure their safety and convenience.

And yet these are precisely the conditions in which they travel on DOO trains around London, on a daily basis.

As a DOO driver I have no idea what would happen to a wheelchair on my train during an emergency. Nothing was ever said about this during training.

Thinking about it, it’s actually quite worrying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That there isn't any training on the matter for the driver of a DOO train is quite concerning, I agree.

FWIW I wouldn't class an in-person handover as patronising. "Hello, I'm the guard, I'll come back and make sure you get off OK when we get to X". He doesn't need to hang around then, but it would reduce the passenger's nerves somewhat.

 

[BestWestern]

I guess a 'handover' just needs to be a behnd the scenes consistent agreed industry/TOC process, not an overt in-front-of-the-passenger "They're you're responsibilty now"-type conversation, which is (as you suggest) patronising.

Approaching the person and confirming in a friendly conversational manner where it is they're going, is a good way of providing them with the reassurance that they're being taken care of, as well as a nice welcoming touch from a customer service angle. I completely agree that a conversation 'about' somebody instead of 'to' them is a poor approach.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Approaching the person and confirming in a friendly conversational manner where it is they're going, is a good way of providing them wish the reassurance that they're being taken care of, as well as a nice welcoming touch from a customer service angle. I completely agree that a conversation 'about' somebody instead of 'to' them is a poor approach.

Agreed - that conversation can take place away from the passenger, then the person who is taking over responsibility can go and introduce themselves.

 

[xc170]

Just a thought, but has anyone considered on sticking their child in one of those wheely cases and have them poking their head out the top?

It'll take up less room, plus it'd fit in the airline seats.

I like that idea a lot, it would probably result in someone calling childline though!

 

[theageofthetra]

I suppose that in an office (for example) it is a line manager (or for visitors, facilities/hosts) responsibility to have a Personal Evacuation Plan for any person of restricted mobility.

Logically, on a train journey that duty of care does indeed fall on on-train staff.

I guess a 'handover' just needs to be a behnd the scenes consistent agreed industry/TOC process, not an overt in-front-of-the-passenger "They're you're responsibilty now"-type conversation, which is (as you suggest) patronising.

Don't forget that a DOO train must be the only form of public transport where the sole person in charge of it can easily have no knowledge that a wheelchair passenger or someone else with severe mobility issues are on board nor where they wish to alight.

A ridiculous situation that needs regulation.

 

[bramling]

Because the Venn diagram of people who know the fuel capacity of every BR DMU ever made and people who have been friendly enough with a lady to have produced children, doesn’t have a huge amount of overlap.

But back on topic, there’s absoloutely nothing wrong with putting a buggy in an UNREQUIRED disabled bay on a train.

Provided you shift it when required.

If you have a baby, then in the western world in 2018 a buggy is essential when out and about.

A pretentious folding bike, or even worse a carbon fibre racing bike on a rush hour train, is arguably not.

How on earth do you arrive at the idea a folding bike is pretentious?

Many would argue that someone travelling to and from work is a more important activity (in the western world in 2018) than, for the sake of argument, a mother or father taking their small child for a trip to the sales.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Just a thought, but has anyone considered on sticking their child in one of those wheely cases and have them poking their head out the top?

It'll take up less room, plus it'd fit in the airline seats.

Those wheeled suitcases are far more of a menace than even the most pimped-out pushchair, though!

 

[pt_mad]

Is there no formal handover to the guard? If not there needs to be, and that would solve all of those problems.

There needs to be someone responsible for and accountable to an assistance passenger at all times for the service to be effective.

But how could there be a handover to the guard, if the guard was 7 coaches back along the train, preparing for dispatch when the platform staff put the ramp down?

And like we were saying, what if the wheelchair space was occupied by pushchairs and the guard was 7 coaches back? There is no choice but for the staff boarding the wheelchair to walk along to the wheelchair space and check that it is free. Also, there might be another wheelchair already in it, in which case the second wheelchair may have to come off and go down to another coach e.g. first class.

Obviously, ensuring that the wheelchair space is kept free at all times of anyone except wheelchair users is going to minimise the chances of this, and of delays caused by having to clear the space at the point of boarding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But how could there be a handover to the guard, if the guard was 7 coaches back along the train, preparing for dispatch when the platform staff put the ramp down?

He needs to walk down and talk to them then! With modern IT systems he really should already know about them.

 

[pt_mad]

But how could there be a handover to the guard, if the guard was 7 coaches back along the train, preparing for dispatch when the platform staff put the ramp down?

And like we were saying, what if the wheelchair space was occupied by pushchairs and the guard was 7 coaches back? There is no choice but for the staff boarding the wheelchair to walk along to the wheelchair space and check that it is free. Also, there might be another wheelchair already in it, in which case the second wheelchair may have to come off and go down to another coach e.g. first class.

Obviously, ensuring that the wheelchair space is kept free at all times of anyone except wheelchair users is going to minimise the chances of this, and of delays caused by having to clear the space at the point of boarding.

Let's just imagine. East coast 225 service pulls into Northallerton. Service has a 1 minute booked stop at the station. An unbooked wheelchair user wishes to board, as is their legal right.

Train doors open. Member of station staff places ramp down and assists wheelchair user in going up the ramp. Station staff assists wheelchair user past the disabled toilet to the wheelchair space. They find the wheelchair space has a pushchair parked in it with baby inside and items hanging on the pushchair. Staff member then has to ask adult with buggy to please vacate from the space, which may embarrass the wheelchair user who is present as well. Adult then begins to move everything and may have to pass the wheelchair through the corridor to get to the area by the door. The wheelchair user is then assisted into the space and brakes applied. Station staff then removed ramp and dispatch begins. Guard is not present in that coach.

Now how would that process take place within a 1 minute booked stop?

 

[BestWestern]

Obviously, ensuring that the wheelchair space is kept free at all times of anyone except wheelchair users is going to minimise the chances of this, and of delays caused by having to clear the space at the point of boarding.

But sadly, is completely impractical. As you say, the Guard may be seven coaches back...

 

[Ianno87]

How on earth do you arrive at the idea a folding bike is pretentious?

Many would argue that someone travelling to and from work is a more important activity (in the western world in 2018) than, for the sake of argument, a mother or father taking their small child for a trip to the sales.

I dare the person concerned to make that "pretentious" remark as loudly as possible in the front carriage of the 0745 Cambridge-King's Cross

 

[al78]

How on earth do you arrive at the idea a folding bike is pretentious?

Probably just the usual anti-cycling drivel, so common it just gets the yeah-whatever-rollseyes-ignore response from me.

 

[221129]

With modern IT systems he really should already know about them.

Which is all good if the wheelchair has prebooked....

 

[otomous]

It’s extremely worrying Bromley Boy, and a major reason why DOO should never have been tolerated in the first place, but you know what the railway is like. It waits for a death or injury that attracts sufficient adverse publicity or attention from the government. Then it adds a couple of lines to the rule book, sufficiently loosely worded to ensure that the people running the show can wriggle out of it and make it the driver’s fault. Cynical, me?

 

[otomous]

Let's just imagine. East coast 225 service pulls into Northallerton. Service has a 1 minute booked stop at the station. An unbooked wheelchair user wishes to board, as is their legal right.

Train doors open. Member of station staff places ramp down and assists wheelchair user in going up the ramp. Station staff assists wheelchair user past the disabled toilet to the wheelchair space. They find the wheelchair space has a pushchair parked in it with baby inside and items hanging on the pushchair. Staff member then has to ask adult with buggy to please vacate from the space, which may embarrass the wheelchair user who is present as well. Adult then begins to move everything and may have to pass the wheelchair through the corridor to get to the area by the door. The wheelchair user is then assisted into the space and brakes applied. Station staff then removed ramp and dispatch begins. Guard is not present in that coach.

Now how would that process take place within a 1 minute booked stop?

It wouldn’t. The train would be delayed. Then the driver will be asked why it was delayed, telling you all you need to know about communication on the railway.

 

[grumblingalong]

You just have to be sensible about it. I appreciate that the trains I work are not ideal for the conveyance of buggies so I make allowances. If the wheelchair spaces are free and I know there are no users booked to use them in a time that overlaps with the buggie warriors journey then I see no reason why they can't use the space, they are always however made aware that if a user turns up wanted to board they will be the ones vacating the space. Where this isn't possible I will allow them in my vestibule (mk3s) so long as they do not block two adjacent exits on the same side, or generally block the vestibule, they are also given a quick safety briefing.

Have I had issues with some of them refusing point blank to fold the buggy before boarding an absolutely rammed train because little Johnny is asleep? Yes, find a guard that hasn't, I have however always found that so long as you communicate why you want them to fold it and explain the benefits to themselves and others on the Train, most civilised parents will oblige.

 

[TUC]

Wow, excuse me?

I shouldn't have to explain my previous post, but I said he would be running up and down the carriage if he WASN'T strapped in.

Not sure how you can pass judgement on anyones parenting skills without having first hand experience of said persons parenting skills.

Because I think what some of us are saying is that we have had lots of experience of dealing with our own children on public transport and, where necessary, just keeping our arms gripped around our children and refusing to let them move, even if they kicked up a fuss.