Rail Charter Services to operate loco hauled trains between Skipton & Appleby.

[theironroad]

No, but in terms of accessing this train, connectivity is important.

I understand all that, but as I said I don't think it's fulfilling its potential in its current guise. We will see though!

I think they're probably assuming that most people accessing the service will be travelling by car to Skipton or Appleby from their hotel, b&b , caravan/camping spot.

 

[Iskra]

I'm not sure that is particularly ingenious - it probably filled up all the morning trips from Skipton - getting to Appleby at 0825 for a trip behind a tender first steam engine with a 67 between that and the coaches won't have had as much appeal as a mid morning trip from Skipton with the steam engine leading.

Even this operation doesn't appear to be trying to sell all its capacity.

Mainline steam is a much bigger draw than diesel though isn't it, and Tornado couldn't sell out 3 days. 50 days, with class 47's with no individual tickets would appear optimistic to me.

The early leg off Appleby was still doable from Leeds as there is(was) a very early service from Leeds up the S&C. Due to work commitments, that was the only way I could do it and I wasn't the only one up at the crack of dawn for tender first running! (See my avatar) And it was still worth it.

 

[Iskra]

One would hope that they get round to selling individual tickets fairly soon.

The need to buy two is quite a put off for me at present.

If you see the upcoming trips thread, I have a single ticket spare if you can make that specific time/date

 

[Iskra]

I think they're probably assuming that most people accessing the service will be travelling by car to Skipton or Appleby from their hotel, b&b , caravan/camping spot.

But how will these people know about this service?

 

[xotGD]

One would hope that they get round to selling individual tickets fairly soon.

The need to buy two is quite a put off for me at present.

You need to find a Duff basher interested in forming a 'bubble'..

 

[JonathanH]

The early leg off Appleby was still doable from Leeds as there is(was) a very early service from Leeds up the S&C. Due to work commitments, that was the only way I could do it and I wasn't the only one up at the crack of dawn for tender first running! (See my avatar) And it was still worth it.

Yes, that is how I travelled on it too (with a coach from London to Leeds) - and yes it was worth doing - the point I was making is that the Skipton mid-morning start was oversubscribed - the others had much less chance of being filled - that is why for these trips the fare differs depending on the start point and timing - they know people will pay a premium for the mid morning start from Skipton.

 

[Iskra]

Yes, that is how I travelled on it too (with a coach from London to Leeds) - and yes it was worth doing - the point I was making is that the Skipton mid-morning start was oversubscribed - the others had much less chance of being filled - that is why for these trips the fare differs depending on the start point and timing - they know people will pay a premium for the mid morning start from Skipton.

I agree, but I think mainline steam has a much bigger pull. Would you travel from London for a pair of 47’s?

 

[StephenHunter]

I'd do it for Settle and Carlisle.

 

[JonathanH]

I agree, but I think mainline steam has a much bigger pull. Would you travel from London for a pair of 47’s?

In normal circumstances yes, probably.

 

[yorksrob]

If you see the upcoming trips thread, I have a single ticket spare if you can make that specific time/date

Cheers very much - I'll check the dates

You need to find a Duff basher interested in forming a 'bubble'..

Ha ha - I'm more of a thumper basher, so it would be an interesting bubble !

 

[Iskra]

In normal circumstances yes, probably.

Fair play! Anyway, we will find out in time how popular it is!

 

[theironroad]

But how will these people know about this service?

Presumably like other tourist attractions, by advertising and marketing and getting the word out. I'll grant you that it's short notice to launch a new venture half way through the tourist season, but school holidays still to come and people are bursting to get out and about.

 

[tbtc]

As an enthusiast I'm glad that this service is being provided, but I think it's operating in a manner that truly satisfies neither the leisure nor the enthusiast market. Not going all the way to Carlisle is a big missed opportunity in terms of onwards rail connectivity, ridership generation and as a superior destination compared to Appleby

I see the point that you're making, but there's only one set, so they appear to be basing their finite resources on two points:

1. Given the relative populations of West Yorkshire vs Carlisle, the main market will be people from the southern end of the S&C wanting a leisure trip to the countryside
2. The A-list bit is the Settle - Kirkby Stephen section (Ribblehead especially)

...so, you focus your resources on running as many return journeys as possible over the most interesting/lucrative section, whilst starting at the southern end and finishing at the southern end (given that good connections exist at Skipton to/from Leeds and Bradford - though not Colne ).

Running all the way to Carlisle (or Leeds) would take a long time - you'd be talking a couple of hours if you did a round trip from Appleby to Carlisle - so if you are trying to attract Carlisle passengers you'd need to start at Carlisle before lunchtime and have a return back to Carlisle in the afternoon, which would come at the cost of trips over Ribblehead (and maybe then makes the start at the Skipton end too early to attract the "leisure" crowd - especially if they are coming from suburban Leeds/ Bradford in the first place).

You don't have to stay in Appleby all day - there's an onward coach service taking you into the Lake District to supplement the train.

This isn't a normal kind of service, it's not intended to be one - I don't think that many of the leisure market passengers will be too fussed about which particular diesel locomotive pulls it (though I love a large logo 47) - I guess it was conceived in the pre-Covid days as a way of attracting the "thirty - fifty quid day out" kind of leisure passenger who'd otherwise be going to the zoo or some National Trust property or maybe something like the NYRM - but this way Rail Charter Service can provide all of the highlights of a preserved railway (leisurely trip on heritage stock, stunning scenery etc) through the key summer holiday period without the need to maintain dozens of miles of heritage line all year long like the NYRM etc have to - simply piggy-back onto Network Rail infrastructure and appeal to people who'll pay a lot more to ride over Ribblehead than on a Sprinter.

 

[Iskra]

I see the point that you're making, but there's only one set, so they appear to be basing their finite resources on two points:

1. Given the relative populations of West Yorkshire vs Carlisle, the main market will be people from the southern end of the S&C wanting a leisure trip to the countryside
2. The A-list bit is the Settle - Kirkby Stephen section (Ribblehead especially)

...so, you focus your resources on running as many return journeys as possible over the most interesting/lucrative section, whilst starting at the southern end and finishing at the southern end (given that good connections exist at Skipton to/from Leeds and Bradford - though not Colne ).

Running all the way to Carlisle (or Leeds) would take a long time - you'd be talking a couple of hours if you did a round trip from Appleby to Carlisle - so if you are trying to attract Carlisle passengers you'd need to start at Carlisle before lunchtime and have a return back to Carlisle in the afternoon, which would come at the cost of trips over Ribblehead (and maybe then makes the start at the Skipton end too early to attract the "leisure" crowd - especially if they are coming from suburban Leeds/ Bradford in the first place).

You don't have to stay in Appleby all day - there's an onward coach service taking you into the Lake District to supplement the train.

This isn't a normal kind of service, it's not intended to be one - I don't think that many of the leisure market passengers will be too fussed about which particular diesel locomotive pulls it (though I love a large logo 47) - I guess it was conceived in the pre-Covid days as a way of attracting the "thirty - fifty quid day out" kind of leisure passenger who'd otherwise be going to the zoo or some National Trust property or maybe something like the NYRM - but this way Rail Charter Service can provide all of the highlights of a preserved railway (leisurely trip on heritage stock, stunning scenery etc) through the key summer holiday period without the need to maintain dozens of miles of heritage line all year long like the NYRM etc have to - simply piggy-back onto Network Rail infrastructure and appeal to people who'll pay a lot more to ride over Ribblehead than on a Sprinter.

Yes, I understand all that. As I've said, only time will tell. Hopefully, it's roaring success and it comes back next year with 2 sets doing the full run...

 

[47827]

Sorry, I read as far as "Class 47" and my eyes glazed over.
Nice idea for normals, but won't appeal much to the enthusiast market - apart from that weird sub-group of Duff bashers.

Only a matter of time before the old 80s/90s stereotype quotes came in. And I'm not wanting to take it in anything but good humour as its 2020 and not 1990 at Man Vic.

Could say the same about all kinds of cranks and bashers if we wanted to. With 512 built they were taken for granted largely and that culture stuck to a degree as what's rare about a class so big? I noticed the same culture amongst many steam fans towards black 5s and many avoid railtours liable to drop one even 52 years after steam ended. Not everyone was biased towards whistling and droning noises from the EE and Maybach worlds even though I respect everyone's tastes myself.

There are still a few of us about but things like geography, family constraints, general commitments, lack of interested household/bubble members etc (keep going) mean I may not get near these trains and won't be the only one. Having had the class to most possible relevant mainline parts of the network (and a good few branch lines) between Wick/Thirsk and Penzance and probably very close to 7 digits worth of travel miles there were and possibly still are plenty of the 80s/90s crowd who used to do them on service trains who have some degree of interest. We filled about a third of a recent BLS train with no effort because of the track it did. Getting them all in pairs under the constraints required for these shuttles and regularly would be a non starter as few people live within an hour of either pickup option. I know several who are on the very good side of LSL top brass though and may well be asked if they have any volunteering time free to do days on the door management. Without stewards the slam door rules would be hard to follow and additional rules and measures implemented so any suggestion these can run as guard + driver and an odd cleaner or customer service rep fall a bit short. 4 on train staff including a guard would be the minimum necessary although if short of stewards there are always company managers and extra traincrew that could be paid to attend vice volunteers.

One of the 47s lined up is preserved and very well looked after by a big 47 fan who also drives them. The other one is one of the pet locos at CD now and overworking them on a hilly route when they generally only run 40-50 days per year is the biggest danger as this turn has them warm and in use 7 days a week including the servicing move from Crewe each Sunday. Personally I would rather it was something else (and the cranks have their pick of EE power) as amazing as these things to be running years after everything ended and I imagine my tally will be zero or very that at best, of 300 potential runs. But love them or not LSL are being sensible and not planning 37s and the like at one end which would potentially cause increased interest that can't be accommodated properly. They aren't a company that does enthusiast operations with any great desire. The 40 tours were mostly first class and there is little desire to stray much out of dining and first class seating on any train bar 1 TSO maximum on most trains. There is still a market for mixed class trains and not just for enthusiasts. Its a myth that everyone wants high fares and meal services. I have played on enough railtours in the last 20 years to know that with hindsight.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

One would hope that they get round to selling individual tickets fairly soon.

The need to buy two is quite a put off for me at present.

Yes, I was thinking the same thing, I am single and it is not always possible to get a friend to come along, I have heard that some of the heritage railways that are hoping to open are also not selling individual tickets at the moment?

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, I was thinking the same thing, I am single and it is not always possible to get a friend to come along, I have heard that some of the heritage railways that are hoping to open are also not selling individual tickets at the moment?

I guess it depends on whether they'll be able to sell all of the double tickets. More likely for a venture such as this, which is more heavily aimed at the general tourist market, than heritage railways which will are at least partially aimed at rail enthusiasts.

If not, economic sense suggests that selling one seat will be better than an empty double seat.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I guess it depends on whether they'll be able to sell all of the double tickets. More likely for a venture such as this, which is more heavily aimed at the general tourist market, than heritage railways which will are at least partially aimed at rail enthusiasts.

If not, economic sense suggests that selling one seat will be better than an empty double seat.

Yes agreed, will just have to see how it all works out. (People will need a strong pair of legs, as I am sure it is quite hilly going from Appleby Station to the town centre or VV.) If the train stopped at Ribblehead, I'd probably get off there as there is a great pub not far from the station with views of the viaduct.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes agreed, will just have to see how it all works out. (People will need a strong pair of legs, as I am sure it is quite hilly going from Appleby Station to the town centre or VV.) If the train stopped at Ribblehead, I'd probably get off there as there is a great pub not far from the station with views of the viaduct.

Yes, I'm surprised that they haven't included a couple of stop off points, but then you've still got the service trains for those !

The walk up to Appleby station is a good work out.

 

[CW2]

@47827 Apologies if my comments were slightly off-colour. Old habits die hard.
I don't denigrate the splendid efforts of assorted groups and individuals in preserving assorted class 47s - and the condition of 47501 is particularly eye-catching. But it remains a fact that such a numerically large and widespread class will be seen and remembered as "common", and to be avoided as a result. If you want locos to run trains for "normals" then go-anywhere do-anything class 47s are ideal for the job. I wish LSL well with this venture. I only add that by restricting themselves to traction which many enthusiasts will find "boring", they are restricting their target market. Perhaps this is deliberate policy?

 

[yoyothehobo]

Dont forget, the idea of this service is to have people using it to get into the Dales, Appleby is quite pleasant day out and it is a nice run out on the train. This is not for the benefit of people who would drive to Ribblehead, look at whatever haulage it is going over and go home.

I dont see any issue with running a class 47, are there really hordes of enthusiasts who would say yes to a 37, but Baulk at the idea of a class 47? I really dont think there are.

My only concern would be if everyone from the outbound trips decided to return on the last journey of the day.

 

[43 302]

I dont see any issue with running a class 47, are there really hordes of enthusiasts who would say yes to a 37, but Baulk at the idea of a class 47? I really dont think there are.

My only concern would be if everyone from the outbound trips decided to return on the last journey of the day.

Although I'd prefer a 37 over a 47, I agree with you that there can't be many that would be put of by a Duff that would go otherwise.

The journeys are sold for a specific trains for the outbound and the return so this could not happen.

 

[hexagon789]

I dont see any issue with running a class 47, are there really hordes of enthusiasts who would say yes to a 37, but Baulk at the idea of a class 47? I really dont think there are.

I much prefer 47s myself!

 

[yoyothehobo]

I actually seem to see more 37s about these days than 47s to be honest.

I was disappointed though when I realised it was LSL and not LUL like I had first read! Underground stock on the long drag...

 

[geoffk]

You need to find a Duff basher interested in forming a 'bubble'..

Yes, not easy. What's the seating layout in these first class carriages? If it's 2+1, then it should be possible to buy just one ticket.

 

[30907]

Yes, not easy. What's the seating layout in these first class carriages? If it's 2+1, then it should be possible to buy just one ticket.

2+1. To get the capacity of 128 which ISTR reading you need to sell all the window seats, and I don't think you could justify going to 1m+ social distancing to sell them individually.

 

[47827]

@47827 Apologies if my comments were slightly off-colour. Old habits die hard.
I don't denigrate the splendid efforts of assorted groups and individuals in preserving assorted class 47s - and the condition of 47501 is particularly eye-catching. But it remains a fact that such a numerically large and widespread class will be seen and remembered as "common", and to be avoided as a result. If you want locos to run trains for "normals" then go-anywhere do-anything class 47s are ideal for the job. I wish LSL well with this venture. I only add that by restricting themselves to traction which many enthusiasts will find "boring", they are restricting their target market. Perhaps this is deliberate policy?

Yes you could call it deliberate policy. Its not the way I would necessarily have liked to see such an operation run (even taking personal preference out of it), but it's not not normal times we are in and the reason for running it lies more with replacing lost Northern capacity and trying to give local tourism a lift. LSL are happy to lose money on it, whilst wanting to minimise that loss, but it won't be at the risk of sticking crowd pullers on the front. I imagine if covid unexpectedly vanished overnight and they had a few weeks left to go that could suddenly change if more seats then came up to fill.

 

[Iskra]

Article in The Guardian about this service today;

New tourist train opens up Yorkshire dales

Over the summer trains will run from Skipton to Appleby, offering walkers and cyclists a chance to explore stunning parts of North Yorkshire and Cumbria

www.theguardian.com

If it goes well, there are plans for more additional services in Norfolk, Cornwall and Stratford.

 

[xotGD]

If it goes well, there are plans for more additional services in Norfolk, Cornwall and Stratford.

They haven't got that many Duffs - they'll have to use 37s eventually!

It will certainly add some interest to the railway, whatever the traction.

 

[Iskra]

They haven't got that many Duffs - they'll have to use 37s eventually!

It will certainly add some interest to the railway, whatever the traction.

That’s what I thought- 37’s in Norfolk surely