Rail strikes discussion

[GRALISTAIR]

When I joined the industry back in 2000, aged 40, some old hand said to me " welcome to the railway boy, money for old rope, always has been, always will be".

Wow. Seriously?

 

[Watershed]

I'm not talking about the legalities of expecting privacy. More about the morality of the poster on here outing him on a forum that management read. As you point out, his idiotic ramblings could lead to dismissal. If someone hears him first hand then I would have little sympathy for him. But why would anyone want to post about it on a public forum and potentially cause him issues. All the op had to do was leave the time of the train out.

That sounds awfully like the position of not wanting to report a member of dispatch staff who gives the tip against the red. You might think you're doing them a favour by keeping quiet but are you really...?

 

[Robertj21a]

Wow. Seriously?

Well it can't be that unusual as a friend of mine was told much the same!

 

[pemma]

Cabin Crew are not starting on £15,000 a year lol. More like £33,000+

I must have seen a dodgy advert then. But to be honest how much it is is neither here nor there it’s the fact he shouldn’t be announcing his salary over the tannoy for public support.

£15,000 is definitely out-of-date for a full time job due to what the minimum wage is now. However, £33,000 is not a starting salary, it's for the roles where they need a fully trained experienced cabin crew member with 3 years+ experience to start immediately. That's probably higher than usual due to the current shortage of cabin crew members at some airlines.

Ryanair are currently advertising £21,000 for a first year trainee and that presumes a performance related bonus is awarded. Most adverts simply say 'competitive salary'.

 

[pt_mad]

That news story further up claiming 5 percent might be offered with conditions of modernisation could be fake news.

For one thing, how are the government going to face the public sector who will claim the railways are part public sector and have been awarded 5 percent?

Secondly, is an offer like that after no rises for 3 years and inflation approaching and about to overtake 11 percent with massive strings attached including job loses, actually that good a deal anyway?

Workers will actually be losing masses of salary against 2019 levels even with that offer and presumably be expected to work harder with less people and less lenient conditions.

 

[ComUtoR]

That sounds awfully like the position of not wanting to report a member of dispatch staff who gives the tip against the red. You might think you're doing them a favour by keeping quiet but are you really...?

There is a difference between posting something on a forum and reporting an incident to the TOC. If there was a genuine concern then it should be reported to the TOC. I doubt the forum member reported it.

 

[Watershed]

There is a difference between posting something on a forum and reporting an incident to the TOC. If there was a genuine concern then it should be reported to the TOC. I doubt the forum member reported it.

I'm sure plenty of other passengers would have reported it anyway. But by trying to suggest such behaviour shouldn't be publicised, that seems to me to be defending it. Which I'm sure nobody in their right mind would want to do.

 

[GeordieO]

The problem is Schapps said railway workers would get a pay rise higher than 2% the more willing they are to agree to modernisation and the change of terms and conditions (so the more the union agrees to change, the higher the figure would be). He was then asked whether that meant railway workers would get the media touted pay raise of 7% that the RMT is after, he then said they will not get anywhere near that figure...

So he wants an extension to the numbers of hours in the working week, the inclusion of Sunday working, pension reforms and future guaranteed job losses for a pay rise of about 4% I’m guessing? You’ve got two hopes...

I guess that is hoping, and still hoping.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Shapps statement to parliament very provocative

https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/a0d72f88-63b1-4f21-b510-15d2a13659a6

Minimum service level legislation is now being threatened

Had to get his two peneth in over Sunday working

The railway is in a fight for its survival if it doesn't modernise

No mention that 5% has been offerred.

 

[Bryan111]

£15,000 is definitely out-of-date for a full time job due to what the minimum wage is now. However, £33,000 is not a starting salary, it's for the roles where they need a fully trained experienced cabin crew member with 3 years+ experience to start immediately. That's probably higher than usual due to the current shortage of cabin crew members at some airlines.

Ryanair are currently advertising £21,000 for a first year trainee and that presumes a performance related bonus is awarded. Most adverts simply say 'competitive salary'.

I was flying for over 4 years and never earned less than 30k a year. The salary was the same for all ranks regardless of experience. I wish people would stop trying to tell me what my salary was. Happy to send my P60 in DM if you're that bothered.

 

[windingroad]

That sounds awfully like the position of not wanting to report a member of dispatch staff who gives the tip against the red. You might think you're doing them a favour by keeping quiet but are you really...?

It's something that should be dealt privately and professionally between the member of staff and their manager. Yes, they made a statement publicly, and yes, that means they open themselves up to comment. That doesn't mean it's a good thing to be the person that posts all the details on a forum like this so the person involved can be condemned by the mob.

I'd say the same about anyone who identified the train on Twitter. Is the staff member endangering passengers? No, so identifying them isn't some great act of public service. I'm not saying this applies to you, but a small minority of people here are quietly delighted whenever they manage to catch someone doing something unprofessional.

 

[pemma]

I was flying for over 4 years and never earned less than 30k a year. The salary was the same for all ranks regardless of experience. I wish people would stop trying to tell me what my salary was. Happy to send my P60 in DM if you're that bothered.

With respect Ryanair do currently have an advert live saying £21,000 OTE for a trainee and the argument was what cabin crew start on, not what they earn when they are fully qualified.

Ryanair Cabin Crew – MAN

Want to work as Cabin Crew for Ryanair? They're currently recruiting Cabin Crew for their Manchester base! Find Ryanair Cabin Crew requirements here! And you can find an up-to-date guide

jobs.cabincrewwings.com

 

[FirstMinister]

Shapps said today, "The unions need to sit down with the employers because this is a highly technical discussion around 20 different areas of modernisation that are required on the railway, to make sure the railways can continue to function."

Any idea where one might find info. on these 20 areas of modernization? Or is it just nonsense?

 

[Bryan111]

With respect Ryanair do currently have an advert live saying £21,000 OTE for a trainee and the argument was what cabin crew start on, not what they earn when they are fully qualified.

Ryanair Cabin Crew – MAN

Want to work as Cabin Crew for Ryanair? They're currently recruiting Cabin Crew for their Manchester base! Find Ryanair Cabin Crew requirements here! And you can find an up-to-date guide

jobs.cabincrewwings.com

Exactly. My starting salary was the same as those had that been in the job years. Everyone in the same rank (Manager, Supervisor, Main Crew) would earn the same regardless of experience.
The Ryanair job advert you quote also doesn't state the rate for hourly pay, sector pay and comission %

 

[pt_mad]

Shapps statement to parliament very provocative

https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/a0d72f88-63b1-4f21-b510-15d2a13659a6

Minimum service level legislation is now being threatened

Had to get his two peneth in over Sunday working


No mention that 5% has been offerred.

Shapps said today, "The unions need to sit down with the employers because this is a highly technical discussion around 20 different areas of modernisation that are required on the railway, to make sure the railways can continue to function."

Any idea where one might find info. on these 20 areas of modernization? Or is it just nonsense?

If by modernisation they mean mass rollout of DOO, how likely is it that any agreement offering 5 percent, that, some posters are referencing, would ever be accepted?

 

[ClivePadd]

Network Rail member of staff in peace.
Let me be very clear to all contributors, I fully support the strike and as do 95% of my colleagues.

I hear from my union rep the major sticking point is Network Rail wanting to change T&Cs.
The most alarming, all current staff contracts to increase from 35 hours to 40 hours.
New starters to be on a 44 hour contract.

This is in addition to Saturday night/Sunday working to be part of a normal roster or for management staff on a salary; they would be told to work a Saturday night for a lieu day in the week at the companies convenience.

Network Rail have refused to change their approach on working hours T&Cs.

I can tell you now from a survey of my workplace today (I work in works delivery which is the internal track delivery teams that sit outside maintenance but not part of the renewals contract or major projects, we do all the jobs to big for maintenance but too small or niche for the big contractors)
There is 100% support to oppose a change to working hours including those staff who are not unionised and do not wish to strike or support the strike.
Even our senior manager who is a band 3 stated he would leave before he ever signed a contract to do 5 more hours a week for no extra pay.

I do not enjoy my job any more, the rail industry is a depressing place to work it has been for a few years now and it’s only getting worse.

I love the railway but I don’t love Network Rail, the people running the show are not friends of the railway nor enthusiastic about its future; they are in many ways the problem or a part of the problem.

I will update the forum when we get more info from our union rep.

Clive.

 

[XIX7007177]

Shapps said today, "The unions need to sit down with the employers because this is a highly technical discussion around 20 different areas of modernisation that are required on the railway, to make sure the railways can continue to function."

Any idea where one might find info. on these 20 areas of modernization? Or is it just nonsense?

Shapps, so probably nonsense.

He is a right see you next Tuesday.

 

[pemma]

The Ryanair job advert you quote also doesn't state the rate for hourly pay, sector pay and comission %

Irrelevant as it's £21,000 OTE so commission and bonuses are included in the £21,000 figure. It's a full time trainee role so while I accept hours for full time roles can vary, you won't be able to undertake another role on top of it.

I certainly wouldn't be happy if I was the senior person in the cabin crew and I was earning the same as someone who is training to do the role. It seems Ryanair agree as they pay trainees around 2/3rds of the figure you were quoting.

I'm questioning whether your claim is true or whether you're a rail employee trying to make out other sectors earn more than they do.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

If by modernisation they mean mass rollout of DOO, how likely is it that any agreement offering 5 percent, that, some posters are referencing, would ever be accepted?

He didn't mention that but picked on track patrolling as being an archaic process that needs modernising. Seems hes not been very well informed about just how heavily modernised track patrolling has already become with the various measurement trains and other visual reporting systems.

 

[dk1]

It seems inconceivable that after years of reducing working hours from 39 when I joined the railway in 1984 to 37 in the 90s & eventually to 35 that NR want to go backwards.

 

[Edsmith]

It's something that should be dealt privately and professionally between the member of staff and their manager. Yes, they made a statement publicly, and yes, that means they open themselves up to comment. That doesn't mean it's a good thing to be the person that posts all the details on a forum like this so the person involved can be condemned by the mob.

I'd say the same about anyone who identified the train on Twitter. Is the staff member endangering passengers? No, so identifying them isn't some great act of public service. I'm not saying this applies to you, but a small minority of people here are quietly delighted whenever they manage to catch someone doing something unprofessional.

I assume we're talking about the announcement that the guard on the Alton to Waterloo train made? Surely he must know that in an age where nearly everyone has a camera phone it's likely to be featured on social media etc?

 

[TravelDream]

With respect Ryanair do currently have an advert live saying £21,000 OTE for a trainee and the argument was what cabin crew start on, not what they earn when they are fully qualified.

I had a family member get offered a job with them during the pandemic.
The starting salary offer was:

£8155 basic salary per annum.
£5 per flight hour (she said she was told to expect around 800 per annum).
Then there were extras like 10% commission on onboard sales and performance bonuses.

She was told off the record to expect £1200-£1500 per month in the summer and £1000-£1200 per month in the winter with base+flight+commission. Not quite £30k a year....
To say I was gobsmacked.

 

[XIX7007177]

He didn't mention that but picked on track patrolling as being an archaic process that needs modernising. Seems hes not been very well informed about just how heavily modernised track patrolling has already become with the various measurement trains and other visual reporting systems.

You aren’t expecting a minister to be be knowledgeable of their department are you?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It seems inconceivable that after years of reducing working hours from 39 when I joined the railway in 1984 to 37 in the 90s & eventually to 35 that NR want to go backwards.

Many of those reductions were done by BR as a mechanism to manage pay increases at the time. For the management grades in NR the 35hrs was the minimum time you had to work and most of us have always done much more than that along with free on call support.

 

[Dan G]

Network Rail member of staff in peace.
Let me be very clear to all contributors, I fully support the strike and as do 95% of my colleagues.

I hear from my union rep the major sticking point is Network Rail wanting to change T&Cs.
The most alarming, all current staff contracts to increase from 35 hours to 40 hours.
New starters to be on a 44 hour contract.

This is in addition to Saturday night/Sunday working to be part of a normal roster or for management staff on a salary; they would be told to work a Saturday night for a lieu day in the week at the companies convenience.

Network Rail have refused to change their approach on working hours T&Cs.

I can tell you now from a survey of my workplace today (I work in works delivery which is the internal track delivery teams that sit outside maintenance but not part of the renewals contract or major projects, we do all the jobs to big for maintenance but too small or niche for the big contractors)
There is 100% support to oppose a change to working hours including those staff who are not unionised and do not wish to strike or support the strike.
Even our senior manager who is a band 3 stated he would leave before he ever signed a contract to do 5 more hours a week for no extra pay.

I do not enjoy my job any more, the rail industry is a depressing place to work it has been for a few years now and it’s only getting worse.

I love the railway but I don’t love Network Rail, the people running the show are not friends of the railway nor enthusiastic about its future; they are in many ways the problem or a part of the problem.

I will update the forum when we get more info from our union rep.

Clive.

This is exactly the kind of information I've been seeking today! Thank you! Would love to hear more from people inside NR or the TOCs.

Fwiw, Times Radio was reporting earlier that the offer to TOC staff was 3% in return for "modernisation". [Edit: Though that's just been restated as 2% on its own with 3% with job cuts.]

(Btw, can we stop with the cabin crew stuff? It's irrelevant and boring.)

 

[Bryan111]

Irrelevant as it's £21,000 OTE so commission and bonuses are included in the £21,000 figure. It's a full time trainee role so while I accept hours for full time roles can vary, you won't be able to undertake another role on top of it.

I certainly wouldn't be happy if I was the senior person in the cabin crew and I was earning the same as someone who is training to do the role. It seems Ryanair agree as they pay trainees around 2/3rds of the figure you were quoting.

I'm questioning whether your claim is true or whether you're a rail employee trying to make out other sectors earn more than they do.

I've just offered to send you my P60 with my companies details on. Feel free to DM me.

No one said that CM's earn the same as Main crew. I've just said that all CMs earn the same, all supervisors earn the same, and all main crew earn the same basic regardless of experience. Your experience is reading a job advert. Feel free to DM me if you wish to discuss my old salary any further because I don't wish to spam this thread with unrelated posts.

 

[pt_mad]

I hope if and when an agreement is reached, that it is a multi year agreement. Or something which sets a framework or a basis for future talks around pay. Because while a lot of the operators are in this middle ground of technically private companies, but with the ticket revenue going direct to the govt, I fear this issue is just going to keep coming back every year otherwise. There are people who are saying the railways are now public sector. It seems to be neither one nor the other.

This is exactly the kind of information I've been seeking today! Thank you! Would love to hear more from people inside NR or the TOCs.

Fwiw, Times Radio was reporting earlier that the offer to TOC staff was 3% in return for "modernisation". [Edit: Though that's just been restated as 2% on its own with 3% with job cuts.]

(Btw, can we stop with the cabin crew stuff? It's irrelevant and boring.)

So you've mentioned the times reporting that, and another post above said it was rumoured 5 percent. Fake news anyone?

 

[Silver Cobra]

With the RMT saying they are prepared to take industrial action "for as long as it takes to get a settlement" and hinting that could be up to the next 6 months, what is the likelihood that the industrial action could become a weekly occurrence akin to the Southern and Northern disputes that happened several years ago? I seriously dread the idea of the level of strike action that's happening this week happening every week for the next 6 months, therefore making the railway unusable until pretty much the end of the year.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Network Rail member of staff in peace.
Let me be very clear to all contributors, I fully support the strike and as do 95% of my colleagues.

I hear from my union rep the major sticking point is Network Rail wanting to change T&Cs.
The most alarming, all current staff contracts to increase from 35 hours to 40 hours.
New starters to be on a 44 hour contract.

This is in addition to Saturday night/Sunday working to be part of a normal roster or for management staff on a salary; they would be told to work a Saturday night for a lieu day in the week at the companies convenience.

Network Rail have refused to change their approach on working hours T&Cs.

I can tell you now from a survey of my workplace today (I work in works delivery which is the internal track delivery teams that sit outside maintenance but not part of the renewals contract or major projects, we do all the jobs to big for maintenance but too small or niche for the big contractors)
There is 100% support to oppose a change to working hours including those staff who are not unionised and do not wish to strike or support the strike.
Even our senior manager who is a band 3 stated he would leave before he ever signed a contract to do 5 more hours a week for no extra pay.

I do not enjoy my job any more, the rail industry is a depressing place to work it has been for a few years now and it’s only getting worse.

I love the railway but I don’t love Network Rail, the people running the show are not friends of the railway nor enthusiastic about its future; they are in many ways the problem or a part of the problem.

I will update the forum when we get more info from our union rep.

Clive.

Thats not modernisation that they talk about then and if they are expecting people to work longer without any extra pay?? there not going to get far with that proposal.

Shapps said today, "The unions need to sit down with the employers because this is a highly technical discussion around 20 different areas of modernisation that are required on the railway, to make sure the railways can continue to function."

Any idea where one might find info. on these 20 areas of modernization? Or is it just nonsense?

Shapps just quoted one as being timesheets being done on paper

 

[Sorcerer]

So I might be going on somewhat of a tangent here, especially seeing as I've not really kept up with the discussion that much, but does anyone else find the level of ignorance surrounding these strikes frustrating? If you were to go into a typical YouTube comment section you will find a lot of people suggesting that all railway workers striking either get sacked or that they can't wait for automation to make them redundant. I think it's been made clear that drivers aren't the ones striking (at least not all of them) so even though automation of the National Rail network is an irrelevant and unrealistic idea point anyway it kind of shows a great deal of ignorance on the issue itself.

Besides which, why is the fact drivers get highly paid somehow a bad thing and not the fact everyone else is grossly underpaid? I've seen comments suggesting the money go to the NHS staff instead even though firstly, it's not a zero sum game nor is it a race to the bottom, and secondly that they didn't seem to care that much when the junior doctors went on strike a few years ago. The fact is most railway workers aren't so highly paid and the fact some of them are shouldn't make it a race to the bottom and that they should just be quiet about it. The idea of striking is kind of easier said than done for some industries but it's sometimes the only way for workers to get their fair dues.

I know it sounds like I'm just pointlessly ranting but I wanted to know what those who worked on the railway actually made of such ignorance that even Piers Morgan is rambling about it on his show (on a side note, that's how you decide a stance on this issue. See where he stands and take the opposite side ). Does the ignorance surrounding the current strikes and the idea of striking frustrate you as an industry insider as much as it does an outsider like myself?