Rail Symbol 2 (the double arrow logo)

[aavm]

"Rail symbol 2" is Network Rail's updated version of the double arrow logo.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Rail-Symbol-2.pdf

The "Web/CSS" colour codes are red ( #E60000 ) and white ( #FFF ). The shade of red has changed.

Image files not public. Available here https://brand.networkrail.co.uk/ Need to register.

Wikicommons has a SVG version of the logo. But its not this new one.

 

[Neo9320]

That’s a great style guide, my inner design geek thanks you

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Thank you

 

[irish_rail]

IET 802114 has had a Br white arrow on the cabside at one end since about 2021. I wonder was this some kind of trial that will eventually see the double arrow on the side of all stock on the network.

 

[zwk500]

Has somebody managed to get paid to reprint the BR Corporate Identity manual? Great gig for those who can get it.

 

[RailWonderer]

On page 20 it disallows the use of the symbol inside a circle, which I am surprised is not allowed. London Midland enclosed the NR logo into a red circle and it looked very modern and I would like to see more TOCs use it.

 

[Krokodil]

What's new?

 

[Lewisham2221]

On page 20 it disallows the use of the symbol inside a circle, which I am surprised is not allowed. London Midland enclosed the NR logo into a red circle and it looked very modern and I would like to see more TOCs use it.

I agree, the circle would have been my choice for an "updated" version of the logo too.

The document also only permits the use of red or black background for the white arrows.

The NRE website, both the old and new versions, enclose the arrows in a circle and use the wrong colours (blue on the old site, purple on the new version).

Edit: just re-read it and whilst it first states "The symbol may also be ‘reversed’ in white out of a red or black background." it then goes in the instruct how the logo should be shown against a different coloured, or photographic, background.

 

[12LDA28C]

Has somebody managed to get paid to reprint the BR Corporate Identity manual? Great gig for those who can get it.

That was already reprinted a few years ago, crowdfunded as I recall. I managed to get hold of a copy, very interesting for people who appreciate good design.

 

[zwk500]

That was already reprinted a few years ago, crowdfunded as I recall. I managed to get hold of a copy, very interesting for people who appreciate good design.

Indeed- and copies appear to still be available on some websites. From what I remember seeing of the manual, the NR document linked above is functionally identical to it. Could you do a brief comparison?

 

[nlogax]

On page 20 it disallows the use of the symbol inside a circle, which I am surprised is not allowed.

Looks ok in the Barnt Green example but on the the NRE site it looks a bit naff.

 

[OscarH]

Looks ok in the Barnt Green example but on the the NRE site it looks a bit naff.

View attachment 135035

Like everything else on NRE!

Interesting about the circle thing given its in a circle on every single eTicket

 

[12LDA28C]

Indeed- and copies appear to still be available on some websites. From what I remember seeing of the manual, the NR document linked above is functionally identical to it. Could you do a brief comparison?

There really is no comparison - this new document runs to 30 pages, exclusively dealing with the double-arrow logo.

The Corporate Identity Manual (reprint) runs to 472 pages and features all aspects of BR lettering, symbols, trademarks and design including Sealink, Rail Freight, Rail Air Link, Motorail, Inter-City and so on.

It includes the entire Rail Alphabet in upper and lower case and relative dimensions / designs for all station signage such as platform, toilet, buffet and left luggage symbols, as well as BR liveries and how they should be applied to locomotives and coaching stock. Also BR uniform description and drawings, stationery and clocks. In summary, pretty much everything you could possibly imagine, in full colour and detail.

 

[zwk500]

There really is no comparison - this new document runs to 30 pages, exclusively dealing with the double-arrow logo.

The Corporate Identity Manual (reprint) runs to 472 pages and features all aspects of BR lettering, symbols, trademarks and design including Sealink, Rail Freight, Rail Air Link, Motorail, Inter-City and so on.

It includes the entire Rail Alphabet in upper and lower case and relative dimensions / designs for all station signage such as platform, toilet, buffet and left luggage symbols, as well as BR liveries and how they should be applied to locomotives and coaching stock. Also BR uniform description and drawings, stationery and clocks. In summary, pretty much everything you could possibly imagine, in full colour and detail.

Sorry, I should have been clearer - the NR document appears to only have copied information from the BR Corporate Identity Manual. Obviously the BR one goes into more detail around everything else, I was just wondering which pieces of information in the NR document were substantively different from the equivalent in the BR manual, or entirely new.

 

[TreacleMiller]

All that money wasted.

 

[12LDA28C]

Sorry, I should have been clearer - the NR document appears to only have copied information from the BR Corporate Identity Manual. Obviously the BR one goes into more detail around everything else, I was just wondering which pieces of information in the NR document were substantively different from the equivalent in the BR manual, or entirely new.

The new document goes into a lot more detail about the logo itself than the previous design manual, and of course the information about how the relative dimensions of the double arrow symbol have been changed are new. Also section 1.6 showing a digital version of course did not feature in the original document and section 1.7 regarding incorrect use goes into much more detail this time round.

In essence, the new document is far more detailed than the original, no doubt necessitated by the increase in scope for changing the appearance of the logo since the advent of computers, desktop publishing and so on.

 

[zwk500]

The new document goes into a lot more detail about the logo itself than the previous design manual, and of course the information about how the relative dimensions of the double arrow symbol have been changed are new. Also section 1.6 showing a digital version of course did not feature in the original document and section 1.7 regarding incorrect use goes into much more detail this time round.

In essence, the new document is far more detailed than the original, no doubt necessitated by the increase in scope for changing the appearance of the logo since the advent of computers, desktop publishing and so on.

Good point about the digital version, hadn't twigged that had never been incorporated into BR (showing my age there, assuming computers have always been around)

 

[12LDA28C]

Good point about the digital version, hadn't twigged that had never been incorporated into BR (showing my age there, assuming computers have always been around)

The original Corporate Identity Manual was produced in 1965, a good 20 years before home computers became commonplace.

 

[plymothian]

Their flag in fig 1.5.2 contradicts their rule in fig 1.2.4

 

[Mat17]

So white on BR Blue isn't allowed any more, neither is the RR version!

 

[Irascible]

Not allowed to use an outline which BR definitely did, hmm.

 

[nlogax]

Their flag in fig 1.5.2 contradicts their rule in fig 1.2.4

If there's a lack of consistency in the manual then real world applications will be.. interesting. Though I struggle to think where double arrow flags would need to be positioned en masse!

 

[zwk500]

If there's a lack of consistency in the manual then real world applications will be.. interesting. Though I struggle to think where double arrow flags would need to be positioned en masse!

Yes,

Fig 1.2.4 The top arrow always points to the right to reflect the two track UK system with left side running. The only exception to this rule is in the case of flags where the top arrow always points towards the hoist.

and

Fig 1.5.2 The flag should be produced from a single sheet of synthetic fabric. The top arrow of the symbol should point towards the right on the front (obverse) face of the flag.

Would seem to be difficult to meet in practice as the hoist is traditionally on the left of the obverse.

 

[whoosh]

But if the hoist is on the left, and the top arrow pointing to the right, then the symbol is the right way round.

Or am I missing something?
 
 

 

[zwk500]

But if the hoist is on the left, and the top arrow pointing to the right, then the symbol is the right way round.

Or am I missing something? 

If the hoist is on the left, 1.2.4 says the top arrow should point left, but 1.5.2 says the top arrow should point right (the hoist is normally on the left of the obverse, exceptions are for things like flags with right-to-left writing like Arabic).

I suspect the confusion may have arisen because in situations where the flag is mounted to a moving vehicle, like ships or cars, the hoist will be leading and therefore the flag should appear to point 'forwards', but where the flagpole is stationary it is usually meant to be read left-to-right.
So 1.2.4 should only apply to flags mounted on Ships, trains, planes or cars, and 1.5.2 only to buildings. There was a minor bit of tabloid panic when Boris had the ministerial plane repainted because the convention that the hoist is at the 'leading' end of the vehicle was applied to the livery, making it appear the wrong-way-round on the starboard side of the aircraft (the effect is most easily recognised with the American flag on Air Force One).

BR further confused matters as the Sealink flag (where the situation of 'hoist leading' was more common) was the inverse of the BR flag, as ship traffic runs 'port-to-port' or righthand running but obviously BR trains ran (generally) lefthand running.

 

[HarryL]

Worth noting the new symbol is made by the person who runs the Double Arrow twitter account (@_doublearrow). The details and changes will have all been deeply considered.

Their flag in fig 1.5.2 contradicts their rule in fig 1.2.4

Having said that, this is a good spot. Seems like the second sentence of 1.2.4 is an error. I imagine they actually intend flags to follow 1.5.2 and the former is an accidental copy paste from an old version or something. It's possible they're both true and that it neglects to mention specific applications too to be fair.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

So white on BR Blue isn't allowed any more, neither is the RR version!

Thinking back to the launch of the BR corporate livery and the launch of the XP64 stock I think the expected standard application of the logo was white logo on red background typically needing a red coloured patch to "host" this. That soon fell by the wayside, might a similar pattern follow now?

 

[dd1]

On page 20 it disallows the use of the symbol inside a circle, which I am surprised is not allowed. London Midland enclosed the NR logo into a red circle and it looked very modern and I would like to see more TOCs use it.

The symbol is enclosed in a circle on every paper ticket. And the colour is not red...

 

[Siemens Trains]

BR further confused matters as the Sealink flag (where the situation of 'hoist leading' was more common) was the inverse of the BR flag, as ship traffic runs 'port-to-port' or righthand running but obviously BR trains ran (generally) lefthand running.

Was the Sealink version officially an inverse of the BR logo, therefore indicating righthand running? I'm thinking of letterheads etc. Or was it only an inverted BR logo when used on flags or 'near-flag' circumstances such as when painted on funnels, therefore indicating hoist leading?

If always an inverse then it would resemble a proper BR logo in a hoist following situation when used on a flag, no doubt generating further complaints.

When watching TV news reports I'd often wondered why US military personnel would sport backwards Old Glories on their uniform sleeves. I suppose this 'hoist following' convention may have something to do with it. Rather than someone buying a job lot of mis-printed badges from the army surplus store.

 

[zwk500]

Was the Sealink version officially an inverse of the BR logo, therefore indicating righthand running? I'm thinking of letterheads etc. Or was it only an inverted BR logo when used on flags or 'near-flag' circumstances such as when painted on funnels, therefore indicating hoist leading?

If always an inverse then it would resemble a proper BR logo in a hoist following situation when used on a flag, no doubt generating further complaints.

It isn't easy to find examples, but a google image search does return an enamel cap badge with the top arrow pointing right (i.e. the 'normal' BR version), on a Blue field and Sealink wording underneath.

When watching TV news reports I'd often wondered why US military personnel would sport backwards Old Glories on their uniform sleeves. I suppose this 'hoist following' convention may have something to do with it. Rather than someone buying a job lot of mis-printed badges from the army surplus store.

I'm fairly sure the American Cavalry regiments use the convention. not sure about infantry.