Rant: Lack of RPI's on Weybridge via Hounslow

[Urban Gateline]

As per my title, I am ranting about the lack of revenue protection done on the Weybridge via Hounslow line on South West Trains.

Aside from Weybridge, Staines, Feltham and the london stations on the route, the rest are Ungated. Ticket offices on most stations along the line are also not open that long. I see no incentive for passengers travelling between 2 ungated stations to buy a ticket as the Guard is rarely a commercial one (conductor) and there are rarely RPI's on the route.

An example could be Addlestone to Hounslow, both ungated stations, a 35-39 minutes journey, with no ticket check being made, what is the incentive to buy before travelling (PF is not much of a deterrent if there's a lack of RPI's!) Say for someone with a season ticket between these stations, it must be frustrating to see others not paying and not being challenged!

I realise that many other lines in the country, run by other TOC's, will face similar issues. My solution would be simply gating more stations on this line or having more RPI checks/commercial Guards on the line, it'd be well worth the investment!

Am I making a big fuss over nothing? I just hate seeing revenue being lost like this

 

[Matt Taylor]

More commercial guards are not appropriate on that route as the stations are simply too close to each other for any reasonable commercial duties to be undertaken. The answer is more RPIs and stiffer penalties.

Neither will happen in the forseeable future, at least not until TFL get their hands on the Hounslow loop.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Neither will happen in the forseeable future, at least not until TFL get their hands on the Hounslow loop.

Are you saying this will happen in the future?

I see your point about short timing between stations, but this can be solved by using Gatelines, they seem to be effective in Staines and Feltham. If cost is the problem then why not have them remotely monitored gatelines. Its more like an investment which would lead to more revenue in the long run and more than pay for itself!

 

[Mojo]

Sorry but gatelines (especially if you are going to leave them unmanned) are useless for hardcore fare evaders who will just find a way around them if they are determined to travel. If they are implemented then they require adequate numbers of staff, told to stand in certain positions and trained to keep an eye out in order to ensure customers pass through them in the correct manner.

 

[yorkie]

Say for someone with a season ticket between these stations, it must be frustrating to see others not paying and not being challenged!

I'm not sure how they could see someone not paying? You may be able to see someone pay, but you cannot see someone not pay.

I caught a WSMR train Telford-Wolves and it took ages for the guard to issue tickets to a large group of people. One of them commented that they thought one of our group had got a free trip as we alighted without the guard being able to get to us. They were wrong; he had an AP ticket from Telford to Hull!

 

[Urban Gateline]

Sorry but gatelines (especially if you are going to leave them unmanned) are useless for hardcore fare evaders who will just find a way around them if they are determined to travel. If they are implemented then they require adequate numbers of staff, told to stand in certain positions and trained to keep an eye out in order to ensure customers pass through them in the correct manner.

I certainly agree with you on that, usually the one gateline staff is enough, with the random visit of an RPI. It's mostly people able to get onto the train without first buying a ticket that should be combatted rather than those trying to exit. When the gateline is in operation I'd say its a pretty big deterrent to trying to get a free ride, as alot of opportunists just see an open station and get on without a ticket otherwise! (knowing full well they aren't likely to be challenged on the train)

I would add that the hardcore evaders will always get away anyway until the police manages to catch them, it's mainly to stop the ever increasing opportunists.
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I'm not sure how they could see someone not paying? You may be able to see someone pay, but you cannot see someone not pay.

I caught a WSMR train Telford-Wolves and it took ages for the guard to issue tickets to a large group of people. One of them commented that they thought one of our group had got a free trip as we alighted without the guard being able to get to us. They were wrong; he had an AP ticket from Telford to Hull!

I see what you mean, but the line I speak of has a stop every few minutes, and no conductor to sell tickets anyway.
No I don't have evidence to prove exactly who has or hasn't paid, however the devils advocate in me trusts nobody, especially those getting on and off at ungated stations, who have little motivation to buy a ticket, and have probably avoided paying the fare before on the same journey.

 

[richw]

I travelled on a Waterloo- Reading service late at night calling all stops i think (or not far off it), no ticket sales at all, and assuming no ticket facilities at the quieter stations.

 

[Lampshade]

And therein lies the problem. TOCs aren't interested in stopping the flood of revenue lost through scenarios such as you described, and more interested in persecuting passengers who have made genuine mistakes.

 

[Urban Gateline]

I travelled on a Waterloo- Reading service late at night calling all stops i think (or not far off it), no ticket sales at all, and assuming no ticket facilities at the quieter stations.

That line is supposed to be a bit better as it does have commercial guards who can sell tickets.

Ticket issuing facilities is never a problem, pretty much all SWT stations have a TVM at the minimum, but I still think that doesn't stop people from evading the fare!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And therein lies the problem. TOCs aren't interested in stopping the flood of revenue lost through scenarios such as you described, and more interested in persecuting passengers who have made genuine mistakes.

Absolutely right!

 

[richw]

That line is supposed to be a bit better as it does have commercial guards who can sell tickets.
(

Never seen a single member of staff in the 90 min trip!

 

[TEW]

The problem with the Waterloo-Reading line is the incredibly inflexible 458s. The guards can only open the doors from the cabs and they are meant to remain in the rear unit at all times. This means the front unit will never have a ticket check, and the guard is unlikely to make it far down the rear unit before having to return to the middle cab to open the doors.

 

[trc666]

Remotely operated gate lines would not do much to deter regular fare evaders as knowing that there are no staff directly supervising the gates would mean they would simply tailgate, jump over or use the EMO plunger to open the gates knowing that nobody will stop them.

 

[bengolding]

I'd be shocked if there were any fare evaders boarding/alighting at Weybridge, given how afluent the local area is (cue a private estate near the station).

 

[Harlesden]

Many fare evaders could be described as affluent with no "mitigating circumstances" to explain their illegal activity.

 

[Ivo]

Waterloo to Reading is better, but it still faces problems. First of all, are *any* stations west of Staines gated? (Bracknell may be, I'm not sure.) Otherwise though, I have only ever known the guard to actively try to issue tickets once, and then only for Winnersh, winnersh Triangle and Earley! At least one of these - the first - does not have a TVM, because "it would get vandalised" (according to my cousin who lives in Winnersh itself). AFAIK however, Earley oes, but don't quote me on that.

Otherwise, what can the Guard do? Moan all day?

I do believe that the Camberley route performs better regarding inspections though?

By the way, what would you do if someone had a desperate need to get somewhere (e.g. a family member was in hospital) but genuinely could not afford the fare, and only foundm out when the guard came along?

 

[Lampshade]

Waterloo to Reading is better, but it still faces problems. First of all, are *any* stations west of Staines gated? (Bracknell may be, I'm not sure.) Otherwise though, I have only ever known the guard to actively try to issue tickets once, and then only for Winnersh, winnersh Triangle and Earley! At least one of these - the first - does not have a TVM, because "it would get vandalised" (according to my cousin who lives in Winnersh itself). AFAIK however, Earley oes, but don't quote me on that.

Only Bracknell is, and I've known there to be revenue blocks at Egham, but that's about it.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Looking at it, Wokingham should really be barriered considering nearly 2million passengers use it annually. Yes there isn't a huge amount of space for a gateline on the P2 side. Anyone going between 2 unbarriered stations has an easy escape!

And to Trc666, remote gatelines work at some stations already, how about Exeter Central and Aylesbury, both these have 1m+ annual passenger usage, and have 2 gatelines, 1 of which is not staffed, if there wasn't any problem with these, they would have gotten rid of them by now!

 

[Mojo]

And to Trc666, remote gatelines work at some stations already, how about Exeter Central and Aylesbury, both these have 1m+ annual passenger usage, and have 2 gatelines, 1 of which is not staffed, if there wasn't any problem with these, they would have gotten rid of them by now!

There is a huge problem, but some Tocs are oblivious to the fact that unstaffed gatelines are open to fraud as well as providing poor customer service.

 

[AlterEgo]

There is a huge problem, but some Tocs are oblivious to the fact that unstaffed gatelines are open to fraud as well as providing poor customer service.

Try telling Passenger Focus that. They love barriers.

 

[RJ]

I'd be shocked if there were any fare evaders boarding/alighting at Weybridge, given how afluent the local area is (cue a private estate near the station).

Ha! It's amazing how many people "forget" to renew their season ticket. For me, out of date ticket = no ticket = Penalty Fare or prosecution.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Ha! It's amazing how many people "forget" to renew their season ticket. For me, out of date ticket = no ticket = Penalty Fare or prosecution.

Yeah funny that, especially those renewing them often, weekly seasons, how can you forget that it's Monday and you need to renew it, that should have become quite routine! At least with Oyster seasons, the POD tells passengers "ticket expires soon" or something like that!

 

[Lampshade]

Try telling Passenger Focus that. They love barriers.

They're paid by the DfT to do so.

 

[Urban Gateline]

My argument is that on a line where there is NO commercial guard (Kingston and Hounslow loop services, Guildford via epsom, Chessington branch etc.) there should be another form of revenue protection, be it Gatelines at stations or increased RPI prescence to encourage buying a ticket.

Speaking of the reading line, when the platform lengthening is complete, will they use 450's for that line, or simply longer 458's? If they switched to 450's then there wouldn't be that problem of the guard having to go back to the cab to operate the door controls, thus making revenue collection easier on this line.

 

[swt_passenger]

Speaking of the reading line, when the platform lengthening is complete, will they use 450's for that line, or simply longer 458's? If they switched to 450's then there wouldn't be that problem of the guard having to go back to the cab to operate the door controls, thus making revenue collection easier on this line.

They aren't lengthening the Reading services, because they aren't doing the platforms at stations between Virginia Water and Reading (it's a proposal for CP5 though), so yes they almost certainly will switch to 450s - with the lengthened 458/460s (if they happen) being used on the routes currently served by 450/5s...

 

[RJ]

Yeah funny that, especially those renewing them often, weekly seasons, how can you forget that it's Monday and you need to renew it, that should have become quite routine! At least with Oyster seasons, the POD tells passengers "ticket expires soon" or something like that!

I didn't appreciate the spiel that these people came out with - it's not a situation where you can chance getting the odd day of free travel here and there. I had some one tell me "come on, play the game" and "I'm old enough to be your dad." Save it for the judge

 

[Urban Gateline]

I didn't appreciate the spiel that these people came out with - it's not a situation where you can chance getting the odd day of free travel here and there. I had some one tell me "come on, play the game" and "I'm old enough to be your dad." Save it for the judge

Yes exactly, in the eyes of a TOC, it's hardly amusing! In addition, I doubt the passenger will be laughing when being issued a penalty fare in such a case. Although we tend to give them the benefit of the doubt if it's in the morning after it expired so long as they go to the ticket office straight away to renew it!

Thanks SWTPassenger, not a surprise that I'd read the original proposal wrong! It would make sense then to transfer the 458's to a line such as Weybridge via Hounslow, not a longer distance 450/5 operated route though otherwise it again raises the issue of the Guard not getting through all the carriages!

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks SWTPassenger, not a surprise that I'd read the original proposal wrong! It would make sense then to transfer the 458's to a line such as Weybridge via Hounslow, not a longer distance 450/5 operated route though otherwise it again raises the issue of the Guard not getting through all the carriages!

I was just reading the CP5 proposal the other day, which is to do the section of the route I mentioned. I think what has been clouding the issue is all the publicity being given to the new 12 car platforms at Reading - which will not actually be fully used for some years. One of the NR blokes I was chatting with (at the presentation in the town hall back earlier this year) was saying that they were lucky to keep it all in the project, especially with Airtrack being binned, but the bottom line was that it was better to do the whole east end part of the project, such as the bridge widening, all at once. Coming back later to lengthen the platforms would have cost a lot more in the long run...

 

[Urban Gateline]

I was just reading the CP5 proposal the other day, which is to do the section of the route I mentioned. I think what has been clouding the issue is all the publicity being given to the new 12 car platforms at Reading - which will not actually be fully used for some years. One of the NR blokes I was chatting with (at the presentation in the town hall back earlier this year) was saying that they were lucky to keep it all in the project, especially with Airtrack being binned, but the bottom line was that it was better to do the whole east end part of the project, such as the bridge widening, all at once. Coming back later to lengthen the platforms would have cost a lot more in the long run...

Ahhh I see!

Well I completely agree with that guy, it will save money getting it all done in one go.

The Reading line does seem to warrant the extra capacity though, most PM peak trains out of Waterloo to Reading are full and standing, not to mention the fiasco every time there's an event at Ascot!

First, we could do with a 9 coach Salisbury/Exeter service on the 18:20 and 19:20 Waterloo departures! Will never happen though

 

[SWT_USER]

Just been checked by a commercial guard between Brentford and Kew Bridge on my way to Putney! Doesn't stop people seeing the guard and making for the other end of the train though...

 

[Urban Gateline]

Just been checked by a commercial guard between Brentford and Kew Bridge on my way to Putney! Doesn't stop people seeing the guard and making for the other end of the train though...

Exactly, and because stops are so frequent on that line, those fare evaders can always alight without paying if they need to!

Recently I've been on the Guildford to Ascot line, both ways on it I wasn't Ticket checked at all (Yes I'm staff, but its disappointing to see lack of checks)

One way it was a 450, other way a 458, the Guards were only seen on the platform at stops.

All stops on the line have adequate ticket issuing facilities in the form of at least a part time ticket office and a TVM, so no excuse for not buying before travel, but nothing to stop that from happening though!