Remaining Effects of Covid

[bahnause]

Masks work a bit like a seatbelt. They give you an amount of protection, but not a guarantee to be unharmed.

Masks still work to reduce the transmission of respiratory disease

We know that masks help to reduce transmission of respiratory disease by blocking the particles that carry respiratory viruses. The evidence for this is unequivocal. Yet, we know that the overall effectiveness of mask wearing depends importantly on the type of face mask worn and how well a mask is worn. High-quality, well-fitting respirators worn properly provide substantially more protection than other mask types, such as surgical masks or cloth masks. Regardless, if masks are even 50% effective, which is about the effectiveness of many surgical masks, they can have major public health benefits.

 

[Bantamzen]

Masks work a bit like a seatbelt. They give you an amount of protection, but not a guarantee to be unharmed.

Masks still work to reduce the transmission of respiratory disease

Bingo! That's the complete set of weird and inaccurate reasons offered as to why "masks just work". Do I win a prize?

But again being serious, the evidence is unequivocal? No it isn't. Even in countries that forcefully mandated mask wearing at all times the virus still spread! The article you cite doesn't even refer to the type of face covering that practically every government insisted on. Yes there are types of medical grade masks that can stop viral spread, however you would have to mandate they be worn at all times, and I do mean all the time, 24/7, 365 days a year to be fully effective. Can you think of any reason why this might not be well received? Because I can!

 

[DustyBin]

Or maybe just misguided that such masks are effective

There is that of course!

Masks work a bit like a seatbelt. They give you an amount of protection, but not a guarantee to be unharmed.

Masks still work to reduce the transmission of respiratory disease

It’s a terrible comparison.

As for the article, it’s complete nonsense!

 

[birchesgreen]

Oh god not a masks - do they work or not argument - again.

 

[yorkie]

No they don't. Surgeons don't wear masks because of the risks of viral spread.

That's correct; surgical masks are worn for other reasons.

Masks work a bit like a seatbelt. They give you an amount of protection, but not a guarantee to be unharmed.

Masks still work to reduce the transmission of respiratory disease

This analogy is completely flawed.

Indeed the article starts by appearing to talk about "masks" as some homogeneous concept, when in reality we know that very few people actually wore effective masks to comply with mandates. The article also goes on to say "Well-fitting, multi-layered masks work to protect the wearer..." ; one of the main reasons for mask mandates was that masks don't protect the wearer and that other people should wear masks in order to protect others.

Seatbelt analogies would only work if some people wore ineffective seatbelts which were made of materials which didn't actually work, in order to comply with mandates.

The precautions were really about the large number of people who were going to get Covid badly - a larger number than the NHS has life support equipment to help them through to recovery. We were never going to eliminate Covid but because it was a new virus there was going to be an initial peak of serious cases until everyone was used to it (like Flu) or had a vaccine. The precautions were about spreading the load over a longer period of time.

That was the initial strategy but over time some people really did start to think that SARS-CoV-2 could be eliminated. Of course it's now obvious that those people were completely wrong.

Oh god not a masks - do they work or not argument - again.

Indeed

It's been clear for a while now that mask mandates do not work and are superfluous; if anyone wants to protect themselves they do not need anyone else to do anything as flimsy loose fitting masks were never designed for this purpose. Anyone who wants to protect themselves can choose to wear a tight - fitting FFP3 mask, which if correctly stored, handled, worn and regularly replaced would offer protection against virus exposure.

However this gets very expensive and if anyone lives, dines with anyone else, then exposure to commonly circulating viruses would be inevitable eventually.

Countries like Sweden, never mandated masks and there was absolutely no evidence that countries that did mandate masks, such as the UK, had better outcomes than Sweden.

People such as Trish Greenhalgh, who are reigniting this debate, need to move on, and accept that they are wrong.

However Trish Greenhalgh doesn't appear to be capable of moving on.

The media should stop reporting what she, and her cronies, are spouting.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If you can go outside with the flu you don't have the flu!

Ah but my point is some people don't get flu very badly. I do not think I have ever had flu in my 63 years. I have had times when I felt a bit under the weather but not even bad enough to comment on. Then the next week colleagues were dropping like flies - I keep my mouth shut but I had one boss comment "you never seem to get what is going round". So I do believe that some people can get flu or Covid and not really suffer but then others do get hammered. It is probably the same as when people referred to people who had Covid but were asymptomatic.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever; what are you basing this claim on?

...............................

See above. I do wonder if I really ought to be more cautious rather than feeling a bit smug in my indestructibility !. Granted my first dose of Covid really hammered me !. Tested positive but no real symptoms (except about 4 months later my sense of small improved so I guess I missed it failing). So makes me wonder if when younger than I can remember did any flu get me - probably did.

As an aside I have noticed I have had a lot less colds and runny noses in the last few years. But maybe that is just me thinking about it more.

 

[Dent]

The precautions were really about the large number of people who were going to get Covid badly - a larger number than the NHS has life support equipment to help them through to recovery. We were never going to eliminate Covid but because it was a new virus there was going to be an initial peak of serious cases until everyone was used to it (like Flu) or had a vaccine. The precautions were about spreading the load over a longer period of time.

That was what was said initially with the "three weeks to flatten the curve", but neither the timing of restrictions after that nor any of the rhetoric from the government were consistent with the objective being to flatten the peaks in hospital occupancy.

 

[Scotrail12]

Shout out to Delta Air Lines for doing contact tracing in August 2023.

 

[Richard Scott]

Ah but my point is some people don't get flu very badly.

Then see previous point; you don't have flu; I've never had it either. Point being I've been exposed to it but never had it. Have had viruses that make me feel rubbish for a couple of days but that's not flu!!

 

[nw1]

Shout out to Delta Air Lines for doing contact tracing in August 2023.

So if you travel Delta and someone on the plane tests positive, you are told, I guess.

Presumably though, as neither the USA nor many (most?) countries that Delta fly to, enforce self isolation in such a circumstance, you are not obliged to do anything.

That was what was said initially with the "three weeks to flatten the curve", but neither the timing of restrictions after that nor any of the rhetoric from the government were consistent with the objective being to flatten the peaks in hospital occupancy.

I do wonder why we didn't follow the rest of Europe in coming out of full lockdown in May 2020 (e.g. that big Boris announcement around May 10th). By that time, if I remember right, cases were coming down fast and there was, perhaps, little reason to prolong the lockdown until mid June and close pubs and restaurants until early July.

The same issue occurred almost one year later when the January 2021 lockdown seemed to continue well past its sell-by date, and indeed in its closing weeks, restrictions became even more severe (preventing people leaving the UK with a four-figure fine if they did - what on earth was the point of that?) I don't know if Matt Hancock was behind that one or not (genuine query, I actually don't know).

Indeed, in general and across the world, there seemed to be a policy of prolonging the winter 20/21 lockdown for months and months, with closures of shops, bars and restaurants for almost 6 months commonplace. It was, thus, much more severe than the initial lockdown, and we had the vaccines by then. With a general opinion in summer 2020 that lockdowns would not come back because the world could not afford them (the expectation was that other measures such as social distancing would be used instead), it was puzzling. I can't prove this, but I suspect that, across the world, the winter 20/21 lockdown did far more economic damage than the initial spring 2020 lockdowns, and having such a prolonged and severe lockdown was probably a big mistake.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Then see previous point; you don't have flu; I've never had it either. Point being I've been exposed to it but never had it. Have had viruses that make me feel rubbish for a couple of days but that's not flu!!

Se my point. I get something very mild then others around are off sick from work. Granted it might not have been flu even if they thought it was but the point I am making is some people don't get very ill while others do - be it cold, flu or Covid. I had whatever I had mildly and others were off sick.

So if you travel Delta and someone on the plane tests positive, you are told, I guess.

Presumably though, as neither the USA nor many (most?) countries that Delta fly to, enforce self isolation in such a circumstance, you are not obliged to do anything.



I do wonder why we didn't follow the rest of Europe in coming out of full lockdown in May 2020 (e.g. that big Boris announcement around May 10th). By that time, if I remember right, cases were coming down fast and there was, perhaps, little reason to prolong the lockdown until mid June and close pubs and restaurants until early July.

The same issue occurred almost one year later when the January 2021 lockdown seemed to continue well past its sell-by date, and indeed in its closing weeks, restrictions became even more severe (preventing people leaving the UK with a four-figure fine if they did - what on earth was the point of that?) I don't know if Matt Hancock was behind that one or not (genuine query, I actually don't know).

Indeed, in general and across the world, there seemed to be a policy of prolonging the winter 20/21 lockdown for months and months, with closures of shops, bars and restaurants for almost 6 months commonplace. It was, thus, much more severe than the initial lockdown, and we had the vaccines by then. With a general opinion in summer 2020 that lockdowns would not come back because the world could not afford them (the expectation was that other measures such as social distancing would be used instead), it was puzzling. I can't prove this, but I suspect that, across the world, the winter 20/21 lockdown did far more economic damage than the initial spring 2020 lockdowns, and having such a prolonged and severe lockdown was probably a big mistake.

My bold. I recall one level of the lockdown was expected to be released in June 2021 but got postponed until July 2021. That ruined quite a few outdoor events scheduled too soon after the release date. Things were getting rosy but the government chickened out. Did they really believe the masses would adhere to lockdowns (*) all through summer into next winter. Was better to take a chance and be able to say oh dear there is the proof we need more lockdowns next winter.

* = especially as the Government themselves were not adhering to their rules. If they ask for another lockdown within living memory they will get very very little obedience (to put it politely).

 

[Richard Scott]

Se my point. I get something very mild then others around are off sick from work. Granted it might not have been flu even if they thought it was but the point I am making is some people don't get very ill while others do - be it cold, flu or Covid. I had whatever I had mildly and others were off sick.

No, you said you only got mild flu, there's no such thing. Not getting it is perfectly feasible even if exposed hence why I said I've never had it.

 

[lewesroad]

No, you said you only got mild flu, there's no such thing. Not getting it is perfectly feasible even if exposed hence why I said I've never had it.

Not true. Around three quarters of influenza infections are asymptomatic. See: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(14)70034-7/fulltext. And more accessible commentary here: https://www.npr.org/sections/health...dont-have-symptoms-you-may-still-have-the-flu

 

[Richard Scott]

Not true. Around three quarters of influenza infections are asymptomatic. See: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(14)70034-7/fulltext. And more accessible commentary here: https://www.npr.org/sections/health...dont-have-symptoms-you-may-still-have-the-flu

Then you don't have flu do you as have no symptoms. All you are now is a carrier of a virus. Like people who said they tested positive for Covid-19 but had no symptoms. No they didn't have Covid-19, they were carrying the SARS-CoV-2 virus.

 

[lewesroad]

Then you don't have flu do you as have no symptoms. All you are now is a carrier of a virus. Like people who said they tested positive for Covid-19 but had no symptoms. No they didn't have Covid-19, they were carrying the SARS-CoV-2 virus.

No, a greater than four-fold rise in serum antibody titre indicates infection.

 

[yorkie]

@lewesroad and @Richard Scott you are talking at cross-purposes.

Colloquially, we refer to "having flu" to mean having more severe symptoms and "having a cold" to mean having mild symptoms, regardless of the virus we actually have.

However in practice we can be infected with any of the numerous Influenza viruses and be anything from asymptomatic to bed-ridden; anyone who is asymptomatic wouldn't even know they have an infection and anyone with mild symptoms would simply say "I've got a cold" despite actually being (unknowingly) infected with an Influenza virus.

Conversely, people can occasionally be seriously ill with a "common cold" Coronavirus or Rhinovirus (and may say they "have a bad 'flu"), but this is rare and these viruses are generally accepted to be less virulent than Influenza viruses and they also mutate at a slower rate than Influenza viruses, so we generally have better immunity against such viruses. Immunity is not a binary thing either.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Then you don't have flu do you as have no symptoms. All you are now is a carrier of a virus. Like people who said they tested positive for Covid-19 but had no symptoms. No they didn't have Covid-19, they were carrying the SARS-CoV-2 virus.

I am talking about someone who has an infection of WHATEVER but does not feel very ill. There is the still the ability for that infection to spread from the person only mildly ill to other people, a number of those subsequently infected will be quite or very ill with the same virus that the first person got away lightly. The exact definition of Flu is irrelevant. Just because one person does not get very ill with a virus does not mean that everyone will not get very ill.

 

[yorkie]

I am talking about someone who has an infection of WHATEVER but does not feel very ill. There is the still the ability for that infection to spread from the person only mildly ill to other people, a number of those subsequently infected will be quite or very ill with the same virus that the first person got away lightly. The exact definition of Flu is irrelevant. Just because one person does not get very ill with a virus does not mean that everyone will not get very ill.

So? What can we do about it? Anyone can be infected with a virus at any time. So what? This is all totally natural.

 

[Peter Sarf]

So? What can we do about it? Anyone can be infected with a virus at any time. So what? This is all totally natural.

Oh yes. It is open to debate how many precautions are appropriate and also if they are effective. My point was that someone who has a virus but not suffering is still able to pass on that virus to someone who might get very ill.

 

[yorkie]

Oh yes. It is open to debate how many precautions are appropriate and also if they are effective.

But everyone is regularly exposed to these viruses; there is no way to avoid that fact.

My point was that someone who has a virus but not suffering is still able to pass on that virus to someone who might get very ill.

So?

We're human; this is part of being human. There is no practicable way to detect this and realistically nothing can be done about it.

 

[Peter Sarf]

But everyone is regularly exposed to these viruses; there is no way to avoid that fact.

So?

We're human; this is part of being human. There is no practicable way to detect this and realistically nothing can be done about it.

I know its hard to detect in time. Test and trace never seemed feasible as who is going to test if they don't feel ill. Lockdowns some would argue were the only way - a very blunt instrument. As you say just avoiding very ill people was not necessarily going to reduce your chance of getting Covid (or any other virus).

Talking of people obviously ill - I mean coughing etc. I really feel there is less colds and sniffles going on around me since Covid. Maybe I am not getting out so much but it really seems as though we are all healthier in the sense of common colds and flu. Has Covid elbowed out other virus' ?.

 

[nlogax]

Talking of people obviously ill - I mean coughing etc. I really feel there is less colds and sniffles going on around me since Covid. Maybe I am not getting out so much but it really seems as though we are all healthier in the sense of common colds and flu. Has Covid elbowed out other virus' ?.

Am doubtful. Although I can only talk from personal experience my frequency of catching colds has been the same as beforehand..but only since people properly started leaving their houses and mixing again.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think it might time to have a little break from this thread for a short period of time to let ire cool again. As a reminder this purpose of this thread wasn't to...

...wage a lengthy re-litigation of matters past (for instance the UK no longer has any mask mandates so we would not expect to see a discussion about whether or not masks were justified)...

...as has occurred over the past few pages. The thread will be re-opened in due course to allow a discussion of the current remaining effects of Covid.

 

[MasterSpenny]

The remaining face mask effect in hospitals might have started biting back: 1 hospital has asked people to wear them (unless exempt obviously).

NHS hospital asks visitors to wear masks again after 'significant' rise in Covid cases — Evening Standard

Staff and visitors urged not to enter healthcare settings if they have virus symptoms

apple.news

NHS hospital asks visitors to wear masks again after 'significant' rise in Covid cases


Staff and visitors urged not to enter healthcare settings if they have virus symptoms
An NHS hospital has asked staff, visitors and patients to wear face masks in all clinical areas following a "significant" rise in Covid cases.


Sheffield Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust said that anyone entering its hospitals and community hubs would need to wear a face covering to prevent the spread of infection.


In a statement, the Trust said: "Along with our staff, visitors, outpatients and anyone accompanying them are asked to wear masks in all clinical areas and anywhere they will be in close contact with others for longer periods of time.


"Please ask staff if you do not have a mask and they will provide you with one.


"We are also asking that anyone coming into our hospitals or community hubs please sanitise their hands, keep their distance from others and avoid visiting if unwell with viral symptoms such as cough, cold or fever."


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The national NHS guidance states that individual trusts can decide their own mask-wearing protocols based on the infection rate in their area.


Chelsea and Westminster NHS Trust in west London still requires guests to wear face masks in all clinical areas, including wards and outpatient waiting areas, unless medically exempt.


Staff at the Royal Brompton and Harefield hospitals also continue to wear personal protective equipment including masks and gloves, according to a message on its website.


"We might ask patients to wear masks in certain clinical areas, such as those with transplant patients," it adds.


Earlier this month, the Royal Stoke University Hospital and Stafford's County Hospital reintroduced face mask rules to limit the spread of respiratory diseases.


University Hospitals of Derby and Burton also said that mask wearing would return in its emergency departments and admissions units to protect vulnerable patients.


More than 12,100 new Covid cases were reported in the week up to October 14, according to the latest UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) figures. It is a drop on the 16,564 infections recorded in the seven days up to October 2 but significantly higher than the summer.


Cases remain low in London, with just 63 reported on October 18 - a significant drop on the 225 infections recorded two weeks before.


The Standard has contacted several London NHS trusts seeking their latest guidance on mask wearing.


Healthcare charities and patient groups have called on NHS England to reintroduce Covid precautions to protect clinically vulnerable patients.


Laura Challinor, senior policy and public affairs manager at Blood Cancer UK, told the British Medical Journal: “As we go into the autumn with covid-19 cases rising and the uncertainty of a new variant, routine testing in healthcare settings should now be reinstated to monitor and mitigate the risk of covid-19 for people with weakened immune systems.”

 

[Russel]

The remaining face mask effect in hospitals might have started biting back: 1 hospital has asked people to wear them (unless exempt obviously).

NHS hospital asks visitors to wear masks again after 'significant' rise in Covid cases — Evening Standard

Staff and visitors urged not to enter healthcare settings if they have virus symptoms

apple.news

Well, it worked so well last time and there's an absolute mountain of evidence to support them...

 

[nw1]

In late 2023, why is Covid still being treated differently to any other viral illness, including flu?

While being asked to wear a mask is only a minor irritation compared to lockdowns and travel restrictions, is it really worth treating Covid differently to other viruses until seemingly the end of time? Because if it doesn't stop now, you wonder if it ever will.

More serious than the mask request is the suggestion that you should "avoid visiting if unwell with viral symptoms such as cough, cold or fever."

So you should avoid visiting a hospital if you have a cough or minor cold, even if you have a potentially serious condition (unrelated to the cough), or require an operation (which you may have to wait for months to reschedule)? This instruction will cause more health problems than it supposedly solves.

 

[Enthusiast]

So you should avoid visiting a hospital if you have a cough or minor cold, even if you have a potentially serious condition (unrelated to the cough), or require an operation (which you may have to wait for months to reschedule)? This instruction will cause more health problems than it supposedly solves.

I think (though it's not quite clear) that they are referring to refraining from visiting others who are in hospital rather than attending yourself for treatment.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I think (though it's not quite clear) that they are referring to refraining from visiting others who are in hospital rather than attending yourself for treatment.

That was my interpretation too.

 

[AM9]

I think (though it's not quite clear) that they are referring to refraining from visiting others who are in hospital rather than attending yourself for treatment.

It's a logical request with minimal adverse impact given the dire state hospitals are in with delays through industrial action at the moment.

 

[Peter Sarf]

In late 2023, why is Covid still being treated differently to any other viral illness, including flu?

While being asked to wear a mask is only a minor irritation compared to lockdowns and travel restrictions, is it really worth treating Covid differently to other viruses until seemingly the end of time? Because if it doesn't stop now, you wonder if it ever will.

More serious than the mask request is the suggestion that you should "avoid visiting if unwell with viral symptoms such as cough, cold or fever."

So you should avoid visiting a hospital if you have a cough or minor cold, even if you have a potentially serious condition (unrelated to the cough), or require an operation (which you may have to wait for months to reschedule)? This instruction will cause more health problems than it supposedly solves.

Over the years, before Covid, I sometimes heard people suggesting so and so should stay away from the office so the rest of us could avoid getting the Flu from them. As someone who was almost asymptomatic with Flu I kept quiet !. Though my motivation levels nowadays would probably lead me to playing safe and staying home.

I have a suspicion that a Covid variant might still be serious enough to warrant more precautions than just for Flu. Give it a few more iterations/years of Covid. I wonder how many years Spanish flu kept hammering us for until it became bearable (killed everyone it was going to !).