Reservations - do you HAVE to sit in a reserved seat?

[sadgit]

A question that came up when me and my partner were travelling this weekend...

My partner had an Advance single with a seat reservation, I had an off-peak return, and she was reserved somewhere in coach C (because AGA only ever seem to reserve Advance tickets in coach C). We moved into the next coach so we could sit together and she could face forward, and the guard didn't seem to care much about her being in entirely the wrong seat - lucky, since we were worried about her getting a penalty fare.

So, my question is... does the TOC actually care if you sit in your reserved seat or not? And are you liable for a penalty fare (or having to purchase a new ticket) for sitting in a seat that isn't one on your Advance ticket?

(And also, why does AGA insist on seating everyone on Advance tickets in the same bloody coach so you end up in the most cramped coach of them all and inevitably end up opposite a group of teenagers blaring music out of their phones...)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

So, my question is... does the TOC actually care if you sit in your reserved seat or not?

No.

And are you liable for a penalty fare (or having to purchase a new ticket) for sitting in a seat that isn't one on your Advance ticket?

No.

And also, why does AGA insist on seating everyone on Advance tickets in the same bloody coach . . . .

Seat reservations are allocated by a simple, sequential process, which books seats starting at one end of one coach and progressively moves through the train (there being a similar sequence for first class, the quiet coach(es) etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Technically the Advance T&Cs say you have to sit in your reserved seat, but I never heard of anyone having trouble regarding this recently - it only used to be enforced by GNER (maybe some East Coast guards still do?)

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46546.aspx

Neil

 

[yorksrob]

(And also, why does AGA insist on seating everyone on Advance tickets in the same bloody coach so you end up in the most cramped coach of them all and inevitably end up opposite a group of teenagers blaring music out of their phones...)

TOC's don't have to do this. South West Trains, for example, issue advanced fares which tie you to a specific train, but not a particular seat.

 

[Flamingo]

We've enough to worry about, if you are on the booked train, once you are not sitting in anybody elses reserved seat we won't care. It's a nice thing if you can pull out the reserved label from the unused seat (unless it is also reserving the seat from another part of the journey).

 

[Bletchleyite]

We've enough to worry about, if you are on the booked train, once you are not sitting in anybody elses reserved seat we won't care. It's a nice thing if you can pull out the reserved label from the unused seat (unless it is also reserving the seat from another part of the journey).

Interestingly people are put off this by the threatening notice you often get on them with a penalty for doing so.

I agree with you, though, and I tend to do this myself (the fine would I imagine only ever be imposed on someone removing a reservation and claiming it was never there so they could sit there, not freeing up their seat for someone else). Can't do it on an electronic reservation train, of course.

Neil

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . .and . . .

. . . . it only used to be enforced by GNER (maybe some East Coast guards still do?)

No.
(though with Print at Home tickets, there is a need for the legitimate passenger to occupy the allocated seat, but this circumstance is emphatically NOT relevant to sadgit's request).

 

[Bletchleyite]

. . .and . . . No.
(though with Print at Home tickets, there is a need for the legitimate passenger to occupy the allocated seat, but this circumstance is emphatically NOT relevant to sadgit's request).

So this:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46546.aspx

specifically this:

When and where the ticket can be used
Tickets are valid ONLY on the date and train service(s) shown on the ticket(s).
Where applicable, you must travel in the Class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s).

is incorrect?

Furthermore the FAQ at:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1179550&postcount=5

says:

Q12 - A passenger has an Advance ticket but would like to change their seat allocation. Are they able
to do this at the station in advance?
A: Yes, but this counts as a change as it takes retail time and therefore incurs a £10 fee per single ticket
(some TOCs e.g. Virgin Trains may choose to waive this and will inform you). Seat preferences should be
detailed when making the booking, not later. The ‘Conditions’ above shows that the ticket is only valid in
the seat shown and this is the strict message to get across. However, tell the passenger that on-train staff may
allow them to move if space allows.

which seems to make it clear that it is *not* allowed to occupy a different seat as standard, and as such permission must be sought to move.

It is almost completely unenforced (other than perhaps P@H) however.

Neil

 

[PermitToTravel]

The TOC don't care; and if they did the issue would be resolved by telling you to move, not by charging you. On paper (and only so), you're supposed to sit in your reserved seat.

 

[rg177]

Sometimes it is just preferable to move somewhere else. For example, I was reserved at a table on the 1830 Edinburgh-Newcastle yesterday but a family reserved in the other 3 seats had decided that my seat was for their bag.

Rather than ask them to move, I decided I simply couldn't be bothered with the hassle and sat at a table in the empty unreserved section of the coach and enjoyed some peace instead. The guard only cared about whether I was on the right train.

Only on very busy trains have I ever heard a request for people to sit in their allocated seats.

 

[me123]

I'd agree that it's rare to be requested to sit in your own seat (although was on a very lightly loaded Scotrail train once many moons ago where the guard tried to enforced this... very bizarre to force 4 single travellers to sit around a table on a train which must have been about 10% loaded!).

On the whole you will be asked to show your reservation, as this details the train on which you are booked to travel (and, of course, your ticket is valid on that train and that train alone). In theory, you could be asked to occupy the seat stated on your ticket. In reality, it's very rare that the guard will ask you to move, except perhaps on very busy trains.

I suspect that issuing a penalty fare would be very unusual in this scenario, and if someone did go down this route, I can't imagine that they'd put up that much of a fight if you challenged them.

 

[rdwarr]

What's annoying is when people reserve seats and then go and sit in unreserved ones. On busy trains this means you get a lot of people standing who shouldn't really have to. So I agree that you should make the effort to "unreserve" your seat if possible.

Worst of all are the people who reserve a seat then sit in the one next to it purely to get two seats to themselves, especially if they claim "it's for a colleague". I see this quite a lot on evening EC trains out of King's X.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would get "Well, I'll sit there and if they turn up and produce the reservation I will move, thanks." Seats on trains are first come first served, you don't get to save them for a friend by doing that.

Neil

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Of the countless number of journeys I have been on I have only ever once had a guard enforce it, done so by a rather cold and unfriendly PA announcement, as if it was some unforgivable sin not to. Mind you he also went on a mini rant about bike reservations too so I am going to guess he was either having a bad day or has an unusual obsession with everything being done to the letter. It was on an inter-city service not even 10% full too!

The other 99.9% of guards however have been fine, they don't even bat an eyelid usually. Just so long as you're on the correct train they probably have more pressing issues to deal with onboard.

 

[me123]

What's annoying is when people reserve seats and then go and sit in unreserved ones. On busy trains this means you get a lot of people standing who shouldn't really have to. So I agree that you should make the effort to "unreserve" your seat if possible.

On Scotrail trains from Aberdeen, I've seen the guards remove the reservations from (say) Aberdeen-Glasgow if they've not been taken after departure from Aberdeen, so that the Stonehaven passengers know the seat is free. (Obviously not possible for reservations, say, Aberdeen-Dundee and Dundee-Glasgow, but the Aberdeen-Dundee reservation could be scored out in that scenario, for example).

But it's not really a big issue. If the seat's not taken by the time the train leaves the station, it's safe to assume that the person either hasn't turned up or is sitting elsewhere. I've never been asked to prove my entitlement to a reserved seat, and if the passenger does turn up you simply move. There's not really a big issue about this as far as I can see. I got on once at Haymarket bound for Aberdeen, and had a family of 3 sitting in the other seats at my table. I found a seat reserved King's Cross to Dundee which was clearly unoccupied and sat there. No issue whatsoever.

 

[Flamingo]

I go through and remove the reservations - it's amazing the number one can pull out (up to a third on some trains, and the number of people who say "that's my seat" (who get the reply "Well, you're not sitting in it").

I will announce leaving London "If a seat is empty and reserved from London, they aren't going to arrive now, feel free to sit in it" and I've never had a problem with it yet! (Well once. With a family who refused to pay the Weekend First, then came back 45 minutes into the journey to demand I shifted people out of their "reserved" seats in a half-empty train. Easily solved, I just gave the people already sitting in the "Reserved" seats a free First Class upgrade!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like it

 

[Busaholic]

Off topic, but bear with me. When the film 'Woodstock' came out in the early 1970s my wife and I journeyed from Preston to Manchester to the Odeon (?) - a huge cinema with a circle- and we were put with the other four people who had turned up for the afternoon performance, all in a line, and were told we weren't allowed to swap seats! I expect the management thought all us old hippies were going to tear the place apart, rather than just have a quiet smoke.

 

[Altnabreac]

I boarded a busy Edinburgh bound East Coast service at Berwick recently and the super efficient cleaning staff where busy walking up the train collecting rubbish and pulling out all the reservations as I got on.

Unfortunately I hadn't actually had a chance to sit down at my reserved seat before the reservation was removed about 30 seconds before I got there.

Apart from a loud sigh and sulky look I didn't have any problems removing the people sitting in my seats though.

Would have been good to wait until at least leaving the last stop before removing all reservations.

 

[class303]

I go through and remove the reservations - it's amazing the number one can pull out (up to a third on some trains, and the number of people who say "that's my seat" (who get the reply "Well, you're not sitting in it").

I will announce leaving London "If a seat is empty and reserved from London, they aren't going to arrive now, feel free to sit in it" and I've never had a problem with it yet! (Well once. With a family who refused to pay the Weekend First, then came back 45 minutes into the journey to demand I shifted people out of their "reserved" seats in a half-empty train. Easily solved, I just gave the people already sitting in the "Reserved" seats a free First Class upgrade!).

that's brilliant!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I boarded a busy Edinburgh bound East Coast service at Berwick recently and the super efficient cleaning staff where busy walking up the train collecting rubbish and pulling out all the reservations as I got on. . . . .

East Coast have a great team in its ISS contractors, travelling on part of most services to help to keep the trains clean (as well as work at the termini). Yes, they do remove unoccupied seat reservations and some are more 'enthusiastic' than others, but I'll say you were unlucky in finding the ticket had been removed faster than you found 'your' seat!

With the exception of Print @ Home tickets (which I've already mentioned), the other occasion on which East Coast will ask people to occupy their alloted seats is : in times of disruption; when the coupon printers at the origin were out of order; when a coach's AC is malfunctioning.
The practice in all of these circumstances being to assist those passengers who have a reservation to find a seat. In each of these situations, the applicable arrangements will be announced.

 

[sadgit]

Thanks for your replies, I will bear this in mind in future next time some idiot decides that the music on your phone is ideal company for a train full of passengers!

Another question, related... going from SOU to NRW on an AP GRTANG&CONCTS Advance ticket, I have two reservation tickets, one counted place one for the leg from SOU to WAT and one with an actual reservation for Greater Anglia. With the route being what it is, am I bound to take the SWT train on the reservation coupon or do I have some flexibility here with it being a connection to the "main" AGA service?

 

[johnnychips]

Is it an urban legend, then, that if someone doesn't claim their reserved seat within ten minutes of leaving the station, you can sit in it?

 

[IanD]

But it's not really a big issue. If the seat's not taken by the time the train leaves the station, it's safe to assume that the person either hasn't turned up or is sitting elsewhere.

Or they've gone to the buffet or for a dump or they're struggling to get from the other end of the train.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Thanks for your replies, I will bear this in mind in future next time some idiot decides that the music on your phone is ideal company for a train full of passengers!

Another question, related... going from SOU to NRW on an AP GRTANG&CONCTS Advance ticket, I have two reservation tickets, one counted place one for the leg from SOU to WAT and one with an actual reservation for Greater Anglia. With the route being what it is, am I bound to take the SWT train on the reservation coupon or do I have some flexibility here with it being a connection to the "main" AGA service?

You have to take all trains you have reservations for, including counted-place reservations

 

[Flamingo]

Is it an urban legend, then, that if someone doesn't claim their reserved seat within ten minutes of leaving the station, you can sit in it?

Opinion differs, but I'd say go for it, and in the unlikely event they turn up, crops that bridge when you come to it. You might have to shift, but it's highly unlikely they will turn up.

 

[island]

Thanks for your replies, I will bear this in mind in future next time some idiot decides that the music on your phone is ideal company for a train full of passengers!

Another question, related... going from SOU to NRW on an AP GRTANG&CONCTS Advance ticket, I have two reservation tickets, one counted place one for the leg from SOU to WAT and one with an actual reservation for Greater Anglia. With the route being what it is, am I bound to take the SWT train on the reservation coupon or do I have some flexibility here with it being a connection to the "main" AGA service?

Properly speaking, you must use all the services you are booked to use.

 

[pne]

Is it an urban legend, then, that if someone doesn't claim their reserved seat within ten minutes of leaving the station, you can sit in it?

That is the case in Germany (though with 15 minutes, I think). After that, even if the paper slip is still there, your right to the seat expires.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Is it an urban legend, then, that if someone doesn't claim their reserved seat within ten minutes of leaving the station, you can sit in it?

Staff can remove reservation labels from 10mins after departing the station at which the passenger was due to board the train, as a Guard I would deem that passenger to have given up their reservation if they have not claimed their seat in that time and would remove the labels and seat passengers there if they were otherwise unable to sit elsewhere.


With regards to sitting in reserved seats, I personally would prefer it if on cheap advanced tickets passengers were not issued a reservation for a seat and tickets were just issued with a quota per train to ensure it wouldn't be oversold if lots of seats were reserved. If you want a reservation you should be paying for it.

 

[Deerfold]

With the exception of Print @ Home tickets (which I've already mentioned), the other occasion on which East Coast will ask people to occupy their alloted seats is : in times of disruption; when the coupon printers at the origin were out of order; when a coach's AC is malfunctioning.
The practice in all of these circumstances being to assist those passengers who have a reservation to find a seat. In each of these situations, the applicable arrangements will be announced.

Whenever I've caught an East Coast Train with reservations not put out, the guard has announced that no reservations are in effect - when a coach's AC has been malfunctioning they've usually announced any areas of the train that have spare seating (and in one instance declassified one first class coach).