Reston services from (roughly) December 2021?

[Starmill]

Personally I think is needed more so than an extra Newcastle to Kings Cross, also levelling up the north.

It was running in addition to 2tph from Edinburgh to London in 2019. The London trains have more capacity and are better used. They serve "the north" pretty well too. I'm unsure what the third Newcastle to London service has to do with how frequent the TPE services between Edinburgh and Newcastle are.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2021 ==

I thought I read that TPE would be withdrawing from Newcastle - Edinburgh. How many fast trains per hour do you need on this section, two, three at the most?

Not withdrawn, but reorganised. They still need to have the units transferred between the Liverpool - Newcastle services and their facilities in Scotland for trains and crew.

 

[Class 170101]

It was running in addition to 2tph from Edinburgh to London in 2019. The London trains have more capacity and are better used. They serve "the north" pretty well too. I'm unsure what the third Newcastle to London service has to do with how frequent the TPE services between Edinburgh and Newcastle are.

As per the East Coast consultation the Edinburgh to Huddersfield (and Manchester Airport) was to be culled to operate south of York to Manchester Victoria only and be replaced with a Kings Cross to Newcastle.

 

[Starmill]

As per the East Coast consultation the Edinburgh to Huddersfield (and Manchester Airport) was to be culled to operate south of York to Manchester Victoria only and be replaced with a Kings Cross to Newcastle.

The two aren't linked. There are still enough units to run an hourly Liverpool to Edinburgh service and a Manchester Airport to Newcastle service. The key reason not to do it now is because the additional LNER services would conflict with the second TPE service between York and Newcastle, but that's unconnected to whether there's a need for the service from Liverpool to extend to Edinburgh. The additional LNER services date from the VTEC franchise agreement and are a rather superior use of the slot.

Edinburgh to Huddersfield isn't a remotely important direct link either.

 

[Johnny Lewis]

Do we know why these new TPE services are stand-alone, and not extensions of Liverpool to Newcastle services?

 

[Starmill]

Do we know why these new TPE services are stand-alone, and not extensions of Liverpool to Newcastle services?

The 1912 from Edinburgh might run through to York.

 

[Halish Railway]

Do we know why these new TPE services are stand-alone, and not extensions of Liverpool to Newcastle services?

Pathing most likely. Starting at Newcastle gives the option to slot the train into the biggest gap between faster trains to serve these local stations, something that most likely would not be possible if the train was an extension of the Liverpool to Newcastle service.

 

[Manutd1999]

It's about connectivity to other destinations aswell though, not just Edinburgh-Newcastle.

IMO, 3ph 'fast' is about right:

2ph LNER to London
1ph XC to give Edinburgh connections to Leeds/Sheffield and onwards to Birmingham and the south-west.

Then:
1x Scotrail all stations to Dunbar
1x TPE which runs fast to Dunbar, then connects the smaller stations enroute to Newcastle. Ideally I think this would be hourly, but 5x per day is a start.....

I agree the current hourly Northern extension to Morpeth should be merged with the TPE if this service becomes more frequent, but at 5x daily it's probably not enough on it's own at the moment.

 

[Watershed]

if the TPE service was hourly then the Northern service between Newcastle and Morpeth isn't needed either?

There isn't a standard hourly path available, and neither is there the proven demand for an hourly service. Of course, if the 5 trains a day are a success, they may well be increased.

Do we know why these new TPE services are stand-alone, and not extensions of Liverpool to Newcastle services?

Various reasons including pathing, to enhance reliability (the ECML north of Newcastle is quite poor in terms of performance), as well as because these are effectively glorified ECS services, so the sets need come on and off Heaton depot.

 

[Starmill]

I agree the current hourly Northern extension to Morpeth should be merged with the TPE if this service becomes more frequent, but at 5x daily it's probably not enough on it's own at the moment.

Not every train will be able to call at Cramlington and Dunbar even with just five services. And this would also lead to the mothballing of Manors. The withdrawal of the Northern services to Morpeth would be quite sensible as leaving the 75 miles/hour dmu paths is rather daft, but this is certainly not a useful way to do it. 1tph Morpeth - Newcastle with all services calling at Cramlington, and Manors mothballed, might have worked, plus a handful of necessary positioning services to Edinburgh. But this is what they've gone for.

 

[James90012]

Not every train will be able to call at Cramlington and Dunbar even with just five services. And this would also lead to the mothballing of Manors. The withdrawal of the Northern services to Morpeth would be quite sensible as leaving the 75 miles/hour dmu paths is rather daft, but this is certainly not a useful way to do it. 1tph Morpeth - Newcastle with all services calling at Cramlington, and Manors mothballed, might have worked, plus a handful of necessary positioning services to Edinburgh. But this is what they've gone for.

It might be a stepping stone as Manors could feasibly be put into the future Blyth services so perhaps in 3 years time that is the plan.

 

[Tramtrain]

RailAdvent reporting there will be 2 extra rotations EDI-DUN-Reston-BWK from May 2022, and also that most of the southbound journeys won’t call at Cramlington due to “capacity” issues

TransPennine Express to introduce services between Edinburgh and Newcastle from December 2021

TransPennine Express has been collaborating with stakeholders and industry partners to introduce new services on the East Coast Main Line.

www.railadvent.co.uk

 

[tommy2215]

If most southbound trains won't stop at Cramlington is there really much point in stopping in either direction? If a Cramlington passenger can catch a direct train to Edinburgh they're going to expect to be able to catch one coming back too. The station has the hourly Northern service

 

[Killingworth]

If most southbound trains won't stop at Cramlington is there really much point in stopping in either direction? If a Cramlington passenger can catch a direct train to Edinburgh they're going to expect to be able to catch one coming back too. The station has the hourly Northern service

We're being drip fed details and not the all TOCs full timetable. The small numbers from Cramlington going north to Edinburgh may have changing options at Morpeth or Alnmouth. Better than at present, anyway.

 

[Starmill]

If most southbound trains won't stop at Cramlington is there really much point in stopping in either direction? If a Cramlington passenger can catch a direct train to Edinburgh they're going to expect to be able to catch one coming back too. The station has the hourly Northern service

Two southbound trains are likely to call, early morning and early evening from Edinburgh. May as well? Given it permits a day trip from Cramlington to Edinburgh by direct services, and you can arrive in the city about 0900 or about 1100. It also offers an additional service to Newcastle leaving around 0700. What's not to like.

 

[Aictos]

Depends very much what you mean by a “stopper”. A straightforward all stations stopper between Newcastle and say Berwick is going to be very difficult because it will need to be overtaken by the following LNER service. It would need to be looped somewhere, and the loops are all between stations. I believe Edinburgh to Berwick would be similar, although overtaking is possible at Dunbar, there’s no northbound equivalent.

The stopper could always use platform 1 at Dunbar while the non stop service goes though platform 2 provided of course the paths all add up....

 

[Starmill]

The stopper could always use platform 1 at Dunbar while the non stop service goes though platform 2 provided of course the paths all add up....

Would be a significant wait at Dunbar for the service being overtaken, although yes, possible.

 

[Watershed]

Would be a significant wait at Dunbar for the service being overtaken, although yes, possible.

At least one of the new Edinburgh-Newcastle services is overtaken at Dunbar. It's 'only' a 6.5 minute dwell IIRC.

Of course, overtaking in the northbound direction involves conflicting with southbound services both when arriving and departing from the station, so is very much a last resort option.

 

[Kite159]

From memory there is a passenger loop heading towards Edinburgh outside Drem station which could potentially be used to loop a stopper (especially if it calls at Musselburgh etc)

 

[gingerheid]

Gosh. After all that Reston won't even have a viable commuter time friendly service (well, except to Dunbar)!

 

[hexagon789]

Gosh. After all that Reston won't even have a viable commuter time friendly service (well, except to Dunbar)!

There's 0604, arr Newcastle 0717; the 0727 arr Edinburgh 0707 and the (albeit not long before 0900 arrival) but also the 0811 arriving Edinburgh 0851?

All pre-9am arrivals into either Edinburgh or Newcastle.

It's not frequent, I can't argue about that but it's better than some places.

Be interesting to see what times the additional two TPE from May will be.

 

[adamedwards]

Question: if the down goods loop at Berwick could be upgraded for passenger use, could platform 2 then be used to recess at Edinburgh - Newcastle stopper? My track map shows p2 as reversible so southbound this would allow cross platform connections. Northbound this would have to fit with a non stopping fast train with connections at Alnmouth instead. I am assuming a platform 3 at Berwick is too expensive.

 

[InOban]

I think that these TPE services should run through to Glasgow Central, replacing XC services. This would release stock into the core XC services either side of Birmingham, and of course reduce the diesel mileage under the wires.

 

[zwk500]

Question: if the down goods loop at Berwick could be upgraded for passenger use, could platform 2 then be used to recess at Edinburgh - Newcastle stopper? My track map shows p2 as reversible so southbound this would allow cross platform connections. Northbound this would have to fit with a non stopping fast train with connections at Alnmouth instead. I am assuming a platform 3 at Berwick is too expensive.

It'd be a devil of a job to upgrade the Down Loop, because of the siding connections that would need to be reworked to protect any passenger train. Also the speed through the loop could cause some issues, as the alignment is restricted by the viaduct immediately south. Platform 3 looks feasible but you'd have to lose/move at least one of the sidings. Finally, does it actually help? How long would the stopper need to be held given the quite long headways on this section, and would trains naturally end up there at the right time?

Running the train to Tweedmouth and back seems to be easier if it's necessary to clear the line.

 

[IanXC]

Question: if the down goods loop at Berwick could be upgraded for passenger use, could platform 2 then be used to recess at Edinburgh - Newcastle stopper? My track map shows p2 as reversible so southbound this would allow cross platform connections. Northbound this would have to fit with a non stopping fast train with connections at Alnmouth instead. I am assuming a platform 3 at Berwick is too expensive.

There is already an overtaking move at Berwick without using any loops.

9N05 TPE 0526 Edinburgh to Newcastle arrives in p2 at 0616, 1E01 LNER 0540 Edinburgh to London Kings Cross passes through p1 at 0619.5 then 9N05 departs southbound at 0624.

 

[Watershed]

All five trains per day (in each direction) are now published and showing in RTT etc.

 

[Stopper]

Gosh. After all that Reston won't even have a viable commuter time friendly service (well, except to Dunbar)!

There is an LNER service from Newcastle to Edinburgh calling at Reston (0727) arriving in Edinburgh (0807). The following TPE (0811) doesn’t arrive until 0851 but not the worst commuter service for a place of that size.

The 1734 TPE from Edinburgh is a good return time to Reston too.

I believe the late Aberdeen-Leeds LNER service will also call.

 

[gingerheid]

There is an LNER service from Newcastle to Edinburgh calling at Reston (0727) arriving in Edinburgh (0807). The following TPE (0811) doesn’t arrive until 0851 but not the worst commuter service for a place of that size.

The 1734 TPE from Edinburgh is a good return time to Reston too.

I believe the late Aberdeen-Leeds LNER service will also call.

Ah - that's ok I thought it was just the TPE arriving too late, rather than the ideal LNER too!

 

[ivorytoast28]

Glad to see Widdrington being given a chance, though it doesn't have much in the way of parking should people from surrounding villages start wanting to use the service, so could be interesting how that pans out. Anyone know why they chose Widdrington over Pegswood? Presumably as widdrington has the higher current passenger numbers. Pegswood felt the slightly bigger place when I was there but it is very close to morpeth so presumably it was decided Widdrington has better opportunity for the wider northumberland area. Definitely good news for an area that has been underserved for too long

 

[IanXC]

Glad to see Widdrington being given a chance, though it doesn't have much in the way of parking should people from surrounding villages start wanting to use the service, so could be interesting how that pans out. Anyone know why they chose Widdrington over Pegswood? Presumably as widdrington has the higher current passenger numbers. Pegswood felt the slightly bigger place when I was there but it is very close to morpeth so presumably it was decided Widdrington has better opportunity for the wider northumberland area. Definitely good news for an area that has been underserved for too long

I wondered if it was a case of Morpeth, (not Pegswood), Widdrington, (not Acklington), Alnmouth. But I suspect more went into it than "call, miss, call, miss, call"!!

 

[Watershed]

I wondered if it was a case of Morpeth, (not Pegswood), Widdrington, (not Acklington), Alnmouth. But I suspect more went into it than "call, miss, call, miss, call"!!

The decision on which exact stations to call at was primarily driven by expected passenger volumes, and which combination offered the greatest overall connectivity to the area. But I wouldn't necessarily assume that all of the surpressed calls end up being happening...