RMT announces further strike action for TOCs & overtime ban for Network Rail

[AM9]

For example Thameslink 2000 was sold with direct trains from Littlehampton going through the core and they now only going to London Bridge, which is returning things exactly where they started before several billion pounds worth of public money was spent. The country outside of cities need a subsidised railway unless you want to increase the divide between cities and elsewhere.

"several billion pounds" was spent on many things, and getting direct trains from Littlehampton through the was an infinitesimally small part of the total. Whilst you might not have seen past that part of the TL2K sales pitch, the main drivers were to enable much increased capacity through the core, roughly doubling the original TL flow, new high capacity trains to replace 30 year old class 319s, that individually doubled their capacity, a renewed London Bridge station, reinforced traction supplies, longer platforms etc.. In other words, "several billions of pounds" wasn't all about Littlehampton through core running.
Now there are some who decry the changes to the TL services and the trains, especially here, but it doesn't alter the fact that the the "commuter class" still needs to get into London and home again*, and the effects of a very large investment have generally transformed the network for the better.
* The TL programme was completed before the unplanned impact of COVID-19 came along.

 

[Dieseldriver]

A generous length of time to perambulate between booking on and the train you are driving.

Generous? Go on, enlighten me, tell me the ones that you deem generous’.

When I worked in retail it was like this and often had to work 7 days or more in a row. We only ever got one weekend day off at best. All for minimum wage. If you don't want shift work then don't do a job which requires shift work.

I also worked in retail before joining the railway. The types/times of shifts and disruption to your personal life is incomparable.
That’s before we go into the real issue of fatigue (have a flick through the numerous RAIB reports to put that into perspective) in safety critical, highly trained, responsible roles on the railway.
For me, the rostering practices are actually more worrying to me from a professional and safety standpoint than they are from a ‘work life balance’ standpoint.

 

[Bald Rick]

You seem like a nice chap, Rick, carefully answering questions, but I will believe the maintenance people that I speak to in the branch meeting.

you can, of course, believe whoever you like. You have nailed it in a way, in that some (most?) people seem to be more prepared to trust the RMT than the company. Personally, having seen what the RMT have been doing at close quarters, I wouldn’t trust them an inch. But I accept that is my perspective.

Whether you think they are minor points and I believe they are major stumbling points is a matter of perspective and personal view.

Agreed

But in over 7 months now neither the company as expanded it’s text beyond the bullet points so we can actually see what they are proposing in depth nor has the union via negotiation has come with any answers to our questions.

That’s interesting, as the detail has definitely been shared with the reps. I wonder why it hasn’t been shared (Genuinely!)

 

[ar10642]

Generous? Go on, enlighten me, tell me the ones that you deem generous’.


I also worked in retail before joining the railway. The types/times of shifts and disruption to your personal life is incomparable.
That’s before we go into the real issue of fatigue (have a flick through the numerous RAIB reports to put that into perspective) in safety critical, highly trained, responsible roles on the railway.
For me, the rostering practices are actually more worrying to me from a professional and safety standpoint than they are from a ‘work life balance’ standpoint.

But the pay is presumably much better too, otherwise why would you do it?

 

[43066]

Everyone on here is saying there's no other way and everyone should just be quiet and put up with a service that is basically useless for any journey you might want to make more than 2 weeks in advance, and to always either be ready to cancel it or have an alternative in place (but also it's somehow essential). How long are people going to be happy to pay high fares and taxes for such a service?

You clearly aren’t using the same railway I rely on and use on a daily basis. You also don’t get a choice in what your taxes have to pay for - furlough wouldn’t have been my choice.

government you voted for aren't blameless, no. But they'll likely be out next year, so what's the point of all this now?

That’s funny I don’t remember voting for the current or for the last PM…

You mean you don’t understand what the dispute is about after all this time? Why are you so keen to keep discussing it, then?!

 

[ainsworth74]

I don’t remember voting for the current or for the last PM…

Unless you live in Uxbridge you didn't vote for the one before them either!

 

[Dieseldriver]

But the pay is presumably much better too, otherwise why would you do it?

Do you not get it?
Erratic shift patterns already lead to incidents where fatigue is a big factor. We have to adjust our lifestyles massively and plan our sleep patterns in advance to ensure we are fit to undertake safety critical duties. If the rostering principles are changed negatively, that will have a big effect on sleep and issues of fatigue and there will be an increase in safety related incidents as a result.
You could triple my pay or halve my pay, I will still have issues with fatigue.

 

[WizCastro197]

But they'll likely be out next year, so what's the point of all this now?

Where is the likelihood they will be removed next year? They seem rather adamant to get on with job even if they do it badly?

A lot can happen within a year (I’ll leave that to you to think about it) therefore, there is plenty of point to strike over the year, which I assume is what you mean by: ‘what’s the point in doing this now’?

 

[NI 271]

But the pay is presumably much better too, otherwise why would you do it?

Because of the terms and conditions. If one day you ever get a job with decent T&Cs, you too will be loath to give them up, certainly for a real-terms pay cut the likes of which would need some serious consideration even if it were a no-strings affair.

This can only be this difficult to understand to someone who has never had a job with decent T&Cs (or salary), unless that someone has a chronically underestimated opinion of themselves - which, considering the number of posts you've thrown up on every thread about the strikes across the last six months, I don't feel is the case. Quite the converse in fact.

 

[ar10642]

You clearly aren’t using the same railway I rely on and use on a daily basis. You also don’t get a choice in what your taxes have to pay for - furlough wouldn’t have been my choice.

2 of the proposed dates from the RMT are supposed to be days I'm supposed to be going to work, so I either don't go or have to drive. That's not a service I can rely on, but we all still have to subsidise it.

You'd prefer people were put on the dole rather than furlough and yet pretend to care about workers' rights?

You mean you don’t understand what the dispute is about after all this time? Why are you so keen to keep discussing it, then?

The trains start running reliably again and I'll go away.

 

[ar10642]

Where is the likelihood they will be removed next year? They seem rather adamant to get on with job even if they do it badly?

Current polls show the Tories being wiped out at the next election.

A lot can happen within a year (I’ll leave that to you to think about it) therefore, there is plenty of point to strike over the year, which I assume is what you mean by: ‘what’s the point in doing this now’?

It's been months now and you're getting nowhere, just trying the same thing over and over again.

 

[43096]

Some posters here are trying to hold adult conversation, this sort of comment has no place in that. I pity those who feel unable to stop themselves saying it, I really do.

Why? It’s actually reasonable advice: if you don’t like your job, or the T&Cs that go with it, go do something else. Life’s too short!

 

[WizCastro197]

Current polls show the Tories being wiped out at the next election.

Yes I’m aware, but as the next General Election isn’t next year, I thought you were referring to some sort of political coup in the future. But I now see you are slightly confused as to when the next GE is.

 

[ar10642]

Yes I’m aware, but as the next General Election isn’t next year, I suppose you were referring to some sort of political coup in the future.

The way it's going you'll still be striking then, having got nowhere with a government who don't want to back down.

The election is likely to be in 2024 as I understand it.

 

[High Dyke]

Because, bluntly, your industry is being propped up by the government and by taxpayers. You do not cover your own costs. Why should we keep paying for you?

Funny you mention costs. Seen a Freedom of Information response regarding the vehicle management tracking system fitted in Network Rail Road vehicles. Seemingly the installation costs are £2.75m across the fleet, with total hardware costs being circa £8m. Furthermore, licence costs, ongoing Android and security patches, helpdesk and hardware is circa £5m over 5 years.

So management seem to making a good job of wasting taxpayers money. Oh, sorry I meant using taxpayers money for "modernisation".

 

[WizCastro197]

The way it's going you'll still be striking then, having got nowhere with a government who don't want to back down.

Who is ‘you’ll’, are you referring to me?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Who is ‘you’ll’?, are you referring to me?

Are you not familiar with this being used as a generic phrase? I notice you have a tendency to misunderstand replies and then get defensive due to misunderstanding, which then disrupts threads… you’ll is often used in this circumstance to mean any person concerned the same way “one” would be. I hope that clears it up for you…

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes I’m aware, but as the next General Election isn’t next year,

October ‘24 by all acconuts. (Ie next year).

So management seem to making a good job of wasting taxpayers money.

Why wouldn’t a company want to know where it’s (rather expensive) road fleet is? Pretty much every company with a big road fleet does this. It also helps protect drivers from erroneous fines etc. (and has done repeatedly).

 

[WizCastro197]

October ‘24 by all acconuts. (Ie next year).

Between then and Jan 2025 seems to be the common dates noted.

 

[43066]

Unless you live in Uxbridge you didn't vote for the one before them either!

This is true.

Frankly the political system in this country is completely broken.

2 of the proposed dates from the RMT are supposed to be days I'm supposed to be going to work, so I either don't go or have to drive. That's not a service I can rely on, but we all still have to subsidise it.

Oh well, that’s life!

You are clearly happy to see railway workers Ts and Cs made worse, why should anybody care about your problems?

 

[Russel]

That might be your opinion, but as the sticking point according to literally everyone I speak to is changes to Ts & Cs, I would say a reasonable unconditional offer is exactly what the RMT are looking for. Even the current offer would most likely be accepted if the strings were taken away.

I would like to believe you, but I can't see the RMT putting it to a vote, they will state it's not acceptable as it's not inflation level.

Sorry, but this has all become all too predictable.

 

[ar10642]

This is true.

Frankly the political system in this country is completely broken.



Oh well, that’s life!

You are clearly happy to see railway workers Ts and Cs made worse, why should anybody care about your problems?

Well they don't, do they? But since we're all forced to pay for the railway you can't expect everyone to have no complaints.

Anyway, whatever, I'll stop now.

 

[Bantamzen]

you can, of course, believe whoever you like. You have nailed it in a way, in that some (most?) people seem to be more prepared to trust the RMT than the company. Personally, having seen what the RMT have been doing at close quarters, I wouldn’t trust them an inch. But I accept that is my perspective.

As someone that spent many years as both a union activist and rep for my old, and long gone union CPSA, I can only say that sadly unions, or more exactly union executives sometimes cannot be trusted. As a rep during the 1990s I witnessed first hand the CPSA executive steamroller over membership will, mandates and even conference votes. All because they sensed a chance to play a pivotal role in politics.

So everyone, including union members should always, always try to get both sides of the argument and weigh them up. Just as people should with politics, because there are people within the trade union movement with eyes on bigger prizes than getting the best deal for their members.

And as the RMT seem to be hardening their position, not taking that decision to all their members at the very least should be questioned.

 

[NI 271]

I would like to believe you, but I can't see the RMT putting it to a vote, they will state it's not acceptable as it's not inflation level.

And yet the ballots that did go to a referendum contained pay offers that were (vastly) below the rate of inflation. It's almost like you're just making things up, isn't it?

What is the point in doing this? Do you think you're going to be taken seriously coming out with things this puerile?

 

[Thirteen]

As someone that spent many years as both a union activist and rep for my old, and long gone union CPSA, I can only say that sadly unions, or more exactly union executives sometimes cannot be trusted. As a rep during the 1990s I witnessed first hand the CPSA executive steamroller over membership will, mandates and even conference votes. All because they sensed a chance to play a pivotal role in politics.

So everyone, including union members should always, always try to get both sides of the argument and weigh them up. Just as people should with politics, because there are people within the trade union movement with eyes on bigger prizes than getting the best deal for their members.

And as the RMT seem to be hardening their position, not taking that decision to all their members at the very least should be questioned.

I wouldn't say all unions are like that but it does seem that in some of the more male dominated unions, it does seem just as bad as political parties in some aspects.

 

[DarloRich]

2 of the proposed dates from the RMT are supposed to be days I'm supposed to be going to work, so I either don't go or have to drive. That's not a service I can rely on, but we all still have to subsidise it.

There us no bus sevice to my area of town but I pay for that service. I havent called the fire brigade out before but i pay towards that service. I havent ever needed the army but i pay towards them. I detest the tories in government but i pay their wages. I didnt drive a car for nearly 10 years but i still had to pay for roads.

I also dont have a train service to my station, havent since before xmas and wont for at least 6 months. I am still paying for a service i cant use.

That you have to pay for something out of your tax that you dont use or agree with is a silly argument.

 

[yorksrob]

The key to this whole thing seems to be to see what has been offered and accepted (in the devolved Nations and elsewhere) and replicate. Government should get on with it

 

[Fred26]

Because the employers, believe it or not, want to hear what those affected by the changes think about them, and Therefore respond to genuine concerns. That is the ‘machinery’ of consultation and negotiation. Of course there comes a point where such consultations have to end, or nothing gets done.

Yes, I understand that, but they're not listening to those that are affected and they haven't done since the start.

 

[Grumpy Git]

That you have to pay for something out of your tax that you dont use or agree with is a silly argument.

Often used by the privelidged to argue as to why they should contribute to schools and the NHS via their tax, (when they use the private sector), seemingly oblivious that these services educate and look after the employees who keep them in the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed.

 

[Robertj21a]

The key to this whole thing seems to be to see what has been offered and accepted (in the devolved Nations and elsewhere) and replicate. Government should get on with it

The government need changes to T+Cs before agreeing pay but RMT members often say that pay is secondary to T+Cs.
There's no pressure on the government, but the RMT seem to have run out of any fresh ideas - more strikes will achieve nothing.
I'm lost what is the point of the strikes.