RMT sets out talks ‘road map’ as rail services hit by fresh strike

[Russel]

The below Evening Standard story has just appeared in my Microsoft Edge news feed, not sure what to make of it myself, could it be the start of the end of the strikes or is it just PR?

Link to story

RMT sets out talks ‘road map’ as rail services hit by fresh strike​

Story by Alan Jones •15h


The biggest rail workers’ union has suggested a “road map” to a negotiated settlement in the deadlocked dispute over jobs, pay and conditions.
The Rail, Maritime and Transport union (RMT) has written to the Rail Delivery Group saying the two sides needed to navigate a way through the row.
The move was made as 20,000 RMT members staged a fresh strike, causing huge disruption to services.
Trains started later than usual on Saturday morning and will finish earlier while some areas will have no services all day.
I believe that both parties are of the view that we need to navigate a way through the dispute
Mick Lynch, RMT
Events affected by the strike include the Leeds and Reading festivals, Notting Hill Carnival and sports fixtures.
The RMT is also planning a strike on September 2 while members of the drivers’ union Aslef are taking strike action on September 1, threatening days of disruption.

The rail unions are also embroiled in a bitter row over controversial plans to close railway ticket offices, which have angered passenger groups and those representing elderly and disabled passengers.
More than 460,000 people have responded to a consultation on the plans and a protest is being held opposite Downing Street on August 31, a day before the consultation ends.
In the letter released on Saturday, RMT general secretary Mick Lynch said: “I believe that both parties are of the view that we need to navigate a way through the dispute and from the RMT’s position that would mean the following suggested stages:
“A one-year pay proposal for all companies covering the year 2022-2023, with an underpin, backdated to the relevant anniversary dates in 2022.
“A guarantee of no compulsory redundancies.
“An undertaking that discussions with RMT within the companies, including formal consultations and negotiations, will be deferred until the outcome and determination from the ticket office closures consultation has been provided by the Government and, in any case, that these discussions will not commence before 1st December 2023.
“A commitment that the existing collective bargaining structures and processes in each company will be respected and adhered to in full including consultation and negotiation as appropriate to the matters in scope and, if necessary, use of Avoidance of Dispute processes.
“A commitment that pay negotiations for the year 2023–2024 will commence from 1st December 2023.
“In using the above staged programme, I believe that we can bring clarity to everyone in the industry, that they will receive a pay increment for the previous year 2022/2023, with a guarantee of employment going forward, and that all of the change agenda that the companies wish to propose will be known in full and then addressed appropriately through the respective machineries in each of the companies.

 

[yorksrob]

Sounds like a reasonable plan.

It's a shame this hasn't been more widely reported in the press to pressure on the Government for a settlement.

 

[winks]

So the RMT are saying we are happy with a 1 year pay deal for the time being and a resolution to this years pay won’t be decided until next year?

Not sure what staff will think of this but I guess it gives some open ground to take stock and discuss the reform needed.

 

[chris11256]

I'd be surprised if this leads anywhere. I don't think the government has any interest in sorting these industrial disputes(either rail or NHS) before the election. Gives the perfect opportunity to be seen as squaring up to the unions.

 

[Stephen42]

So the RMT are saying we are happy with a 1 year pay deal for the time being and a resolution to this years pay won’t be decided until next year?

Not sure what staff will think of this but I guess it gives some open ground to take stock and discuss the reform needed.

If the RMT proposal was adopted in full, they'd get all reforms through usual channels, delay any changes with regards to ticket offices, a pay rise and significant backpay for members in exchange for three months of no industrial action. They'd be able to resume industrial action after 1st December about this years pay deal.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of the dispute, the RDG negotiators are unlikely to accept the above as it significantly undermines their negotiating position. 3 months is a short time period and being the run up to Christmas pay period staff may take less strike action anyway. Any workplace reforms will have greater chance of going through with unlocking larger pay rises so paying part in advance isn't a good strategy for them. The RMT press release suggests the RDG have already rebuffed the approach "I am aware of your initial view of the suggested programme, but I do request that full consideration is given by the RDG and DfT to this"

 

[Snow1964]

I can see the logic in having some plan to break the deadlock.

Fairly obvious that Government doesn't want to move, and after 24 days (or whatever the number of days is) of strikes with no movement, another potential 17 months of same style of strikes isn't likely to be any different.

In my view the RMT press or PR machine has done dreadful job of explaining the reasons behind the action to get public on side, instead they have not really rebuffed media that they are just greedy, and more than a pay dispute. I suspect many MPs don't even know the reasons either, especially as Lynch's TV news appearances always waffle on about solidarity etc, and never the issues.

 

[northernbelle]

Sounds to me like the RMT realise the strikes aren't achieving much and their members are getting tired of it.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

Sounds to me like the RMT realise the strikes aren't achieving much and their members are getting tired of it.

They probably weren't when the focus was on retaining current working practices and demands for inflation busting pay rises. The general public didn't support them on those issues.

The ticket office dispute however is another matter, I think the GP are with them on that one.

 

[railfan99]

Re the 'keep ticket offices open' protest planned for 31 August 2023 opposite Downing Street, do there tend to be various protests (on non-railway matters) most days there or is this relatively unusual?

Would the railway unionists/general public attendees be likely to be competing for space (and for having their demonstration in/on mainstream and social media) with other complainants?

 

[renegademaster]

What RMT/ASLEF need to do is more sustained strikes like Abellio workers did, the government are more than happy to ride out the 4 days a month of closures. Problem is that the rail unions probably don't have a deep enough hardship fund, Abellio had the advantage of being a relatively small operation in one of the biggest unions (Unite)

 

[Towers]

They probably weren't when the focus was on retaining current working practices and demands for inflation busting pay rises. The general public didn't support them on those issues.

The ticket office dispute however is another matter, I think the GP are with them on that one.

The reality is that you can only ask your members in operational grades to keep carrying the burden of strikes to support a political ideology to retain ticket offices for so long, eventually they will grow tired of it. Recent interviews with Mick seem to suggest that he does not intend to budge on this issue, so perhaps he has realised or been advised that it might be prudent not to over-milk the willingness of his members across the TOC grades to keep voting for further action.

 

[philosopher]

In my view the RMT press or PR machine has done dreadful job of explaining the reasons behind the action to get public on side, instead they have not really rebuffed media that they are just greedy, and more than a pay dispute. I suspect many MPs don't even know the reasons either, especially as Lynch's TV news appearances always waffle on about solidarity etc, and never the issues.

I do actually find there are number of people supportive or at least neutral on the strikes. However I tend to find that these people tend to either not use the railways much or see the strikes as opportunity to avoid doing something (e.g going into the office).

For passengers who do use the railways frequently, I think it is going to be hard to sell the strikes to those passengers, particularly if they suffer financially from the strikes. The best the unions can do here is to portray the government as at fault for the strikes, rather than the unions.

 

[Andyh82]

Re the 'keep ticket offices open' protest planned for 31 August 2023 opposite Downing Street, do there tend to be various protests (on non-railway matters) most days there or is this relatively unusual?

Would the railway unionists/general public attendees be likely to be competing for space (and for having their demonstration in/on mainstream and social media) with other complainants?

There is a protest in some form in that location pretty much every day

Often it’s a couple of people protesting about a world issue not directly anything to do with our government

 

[Goldfish62]

The ticket office dispute however is another matter, I think the GP are with them on that one.

Indeed, but if the government does change its mind it'll be down to public opinion and a good lobbying campaign by the RMT, not strike action.

 

[renegademaster]

One thing RMT could do to hurt RDG without hurting their members paycheck is running a PM educating everyone on delay repay and strike compensation. Surprising number of people don't know about it.

 

[david1212]

I'd be surprised if this leads anywhere. I don't think the government has any interest in sorting these industrial disputes(either rail or NHS) before the election. Gives the perfect opportunity to be seen as squaring up to the unions.

I can see the logic in having some plan to break the deadlock.

Fairly obvious that Government doesn't want to move, and after 24 days (or whatever the number of days is) of strikes with no movement, another potential 17 months of same style of strikes isn't likely to be any different.

In my view the RMT press or PR machine has done dreadful job of explaining the reasons behind the action to get public on side, instead they have not really rebuffed media that they are just greedy, and more than a pay dispute. I suspect many MPs don't even know the reasons either, especially as Lynch's TV news appearances always waffle on about solidarity etc, and never the issues.

Rail does not matter to the majority so will not be a major election issue but the lack of interest or concern by this government could be seen as expecting not to be the next government so leaving whoever that is to resolve the dispute, should they want to of course.

Cynical thinking is that the DfT/treasury are running a study to compare the balance sheets of strike, no overtime and normal running days.

Meanwhile currently targetting weekends leaves the predominantly social / leisure travellers to either use alternative modes or not travel with the knock on effect to the leisure sector.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

One thing RMT could do to hurt RDG without hurting their members paycheck is running a PM educating everyone on delay repay and strike compensation. Surprising number of people don't know about it.

Not really - most people won't be eligible for compensation as disruption is advertised prior to 10pm the night before travel so it's effectively either get a full refund and don't travel or accept the revised timetable without compensation (unless that too is delayed).

The savings made from not paying staff, track access charges, fuel, marginal savings on wear and tear/maintenance on stock etc make strikes financially neutral/positive for the DfT, even if they lose the ticket revenue. A lot of routes are commercially loss making regardless of strikes anyway.

If it did become an issue, DfT/RDG would just terminate the delay repay scheme and default back to the extremely less generous Conditions of Travel minimums There's no right to delay repay in law.

 

[yorksrob]

The ticket office closure plan is a PR gift to the RMT who should capitalise on the "Government holds passengers in contempt" angle at the sime time as pushing the proposals.

 

[renegademaster]

I don't think most people really care about ticket offices tbh. They'll just say "but I always use the machines". Not to say they aren't valuable but theirs needs to be more publicity, aimed at those who don't normally use them, to explain why they are valuable

 

[RailExplorer]

Not really - most people won't be eligible for compensation as disruption is advertised prior to 10pm the night before travel so it's effectively either get a full refund and don't travel or accept the revised timetable without compensation (unless that too is delayed).

The savings made from not paying staff, track access charges, fuel, marginal savings on wear and tear/maintenance on stock etc make strikes financially neutral/positive for the DfT, even if they lose the ticket revenue. A lot of routes are commercially loss making regardless of strikes anyway.

If it did become an issue, DfT/RDG would just terminate the delay repay scheme and default back to the extremely less generous Conditions of Travel minimums There's no right to delay repay in law.

I got 100% of an open return ticket through delay repay last summer due to a strike day. I had booked on a particular train, but as that day had no trains, I travelled the following day. As this was 2+ hours late in applied for delay repay.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I got 100% of an open return ticket through delay repay last summer due to a strike day. I had booked on a particular train, but as that day had no trains, I travelled the following day. As this was 2+ hours late in applied for delay repay.

If I understand properly, you were potentially not eligible for delay repay strictly speaking and I'd be cautious about repeating that in the future as it may result in repercussions.

Although I'm not sure when exactly the 10pm cut off rule came in, but you may have travelled prior to that if it was a while back.

It the alterations/cancellations are pushed into the timetable system before 10pm the day before you travel, delay is assessed against the new schedules, not your original ones. So even if there were no trains the next day (they'd all been removed/cancelled by 10pm) - you can either claim a full refund and not travel at all, or travel on the next day that trains do run, but not claim delay repay.

There's various arguments about other rights you may have - but delay repay is fairly straightforward, if not considered a little unfair by some.

 

[IanXC]

They probably weren't when the focus was on retaining current working practices and demands for inflation busting pay rises. The general public didn't support them on those issues.

The ticket office dispute however is another matter, I think the GP are with them on that one.

The RMT may talk of pay rises at the kind of level of inflation, lets not forget 2022 pay rise is unresolved, when inflation was 11.1% and RDGs best offer so far, with many many strings attached, has been 5%. I don't think its unreasonable for employees to expect that their pay will not be eroded at that kind of rate, but I don't equally expect it would take 11% to settle the dispute, and absolutely not an "inflation busting pay rise".

 

[Russel]

Some interesting views here, it looks like neither side want to back down so any sort of road map is to be welcomed.

It will be interesting to see what, if any, effect the ongoing strikes across the public sector has on the upcoming general election.

 

[markymark2000]

Could some of this new roadmap be good for RDG to work to accept it? If they solve this deal right now, they can then say they have sorted the dispute. Come end Dec/Start Jan next year (new talks start December, by the time the union give notice of strike, it will be the end of the year) when new strikes start, the RDG can use it as an argument to turn the public against the RMT saying basically 'look at them. They held you ransom last year and they are going to do it again. Greedy so and sos'?

That's how I would see it. Give more ammo for next time when they want to turn the public against the unions.

 

[railfan99]

The ticket office closure plan is a PR gift to the RMT who should capitalise on the "Government holds passengers in contempt" angle at the sime time as pushing the proposals.

Noting that naturally there's an ongoing decline in usage of ticket offices, the population of UK is (by my nation's standards) huge in a small area, and rail patronage is significant on many main and more than a few secondary main or even branch lines.

While having a ticket office open say 14 hours daily from 0600 to 2000 hrs may cost at least GBP130,000 pa at a guess (at least two shifts per day, coverage for days off and holidays/sick days, overtime and electricity plus sundry expenses), I struggle to understand why a developed nation that has already rationalised these cannot seemingly fund continued operation.

It isn't satisfactory to supposedly redeploy staff to ticket barriers as one assumes they won't have access to all the tools available in a booking office.

Could some of this new roadmap be good for RDG to work to accept it? If they solve this deal right now, they can then say they have sorted the dispute. Come end Dec/Start Jan next year (new talks start December, by the time the union give notice of strike, it will be the end of the year) when new strikes start, the RDG can use it as an argument to turn the public against the RMT saying basically 'look at them. They held you ransom last year and they are going to do it again. Greedy so and sos'?

Perhaps it also occurs in nations like France, but in my nation I cannot recall an industrial dispute (with strikes) dragging on for 14 months plus. It is unbelievable to me that a year on from my previous visit, the parties still haven't compromised.

That doesn't mean Nirvana where I am, but usually public and media pressure on either employees/unions/government sees unions/employees desist, or company(ies) concerned or government make an offer that's accepted.

Given almost everyone suggests the Conservative Party is headed for defeat in 2025 (though nothing is impossible in politics), surely time for both sides to compromise?

 

[skyhigh]

Perhaps it also occurs in nations like France, but in my nation I cannot recall an industrial dispute (with strikes) dragging on for 14 months plus.

The French seem to take striking as a national sport. According to The Times, as of June 2023 air traffic controllers had been on strike for a total of 60 days this year. That would have a much bigger impact than any RMT strike.

 

[yorksrob]

Noting that naturally there's an ongoing decline in usage of ticket offices, the population of UK is (by my nation's standards) huge in a small area, and rail patronage is significant on many main and more than a few secondary main or even branch lines.

While having a ticket office open say 14 hours daily from 0600 to 2000 hrs may cost at least GBP130,000 pa at a guess (at least two shifts per day, coverage for days off and holidays/sick days, overtime and electricity plus sundry expenses), I struggle to understand why a developed nation that has already rationalised these cannot seemingly fund continued operation.

It isn't satisfactory to supposedly redeploy staff to ticket barriers as one assumes they won't have access to all the tools available in a booking office.

Indeed, plus the fact that with a ticket office, you know where to find someone.

I notice that a major station like York has taken to closing its ticket and information office of a Sunday evening, just when people need to find out about alternatives to cancelled trains.

Make no mistake, these half-baked proposals are nothing more than a swipe against rail users from an anti-rail Government.

 

[philosopher]

Perhaps it also occurs in nations like France, but in my nation I cannot recall an industrial dispute (with strikes) dragging on for 14 months plus. It is unbelievable to me that a year on from my previous visit, the parties still haven't compromised.

That doesn't mean Nirvana where I am, but usually public and media pressure on either employees/unions/government sees unions/employees desist, or company(ies) concerned or government make an offer that's accepted.

Given almost everyone suggests the Conservative Party is headed for defeat in 2025 (though nothing is impossible in politics), surely time for both sides to compromise?

I get the impression both sides here in the UK are more ideological than they are in Australia which makes compromising a lot harder.

I think also this time there is much less media attention than similar disputes in the past. There was some when these strikes started, but now there is not much. As many workers can WFH, strikes no longer have the same degree as economic impact as they did previously and I think this considerably reduces pressure from the public to end the strikes. Pre Covid I suspect this dispute would have been settled after a few months.

 

[Dan G]

RMT press release https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-writes-to-rail-delivery-group-urging-a-resolution

26 August 2023

Rail union, RMT has written to the RDG with a road map to a negotiate settlement to the long running national dispute.

20,000 railway workers working for 14 train operators are on strike today and on September 2.

In the letter, RMT general secretary Mick Lynch writes: "I believe that both parties are of the view that we need to navigate a way through the dispute and from the RMT’s position that would mean the following suggested stages:

•A 1-year pay proposal for all companies covering the year 2022-2023, with an underpin, backdated to the relevant anniversary dates in 2022.

•A guarantee of no compulsory redundancies.

•An undertaking that discussions with RMT within the companies, including formal consultations and negotiations, will be deferred until the outcome and determination from the ticket office closures consultation has been provided by the Government and, in any case, that these discussions will not commence before 1st December 2023.

• A commitment that in the interim, ahead of 1stDecember 2023, each Train Operating Company will provide to the RMT in writing, their full agenda, and details of “Workforce Reform” proposals for all functions and grades that they are seeking to apply within their organisations.

• A commitment that the existing collective bargaining structures and processes in each company will be respected and adhered to in full including consultation and negotiation as appropriate to the matters in scope and, if necessary, use of Avoidance of Dispute processes.

• A commitment that pay negotiations for the year 2023–2024 will commence from 1st December 2023.

"In using the above staged programme, I believe that we can bring clarity to everyone in the industry, that they will receive a pay increment for the previous year 2022/2023, with a guarantee of employment going forward, and that all of the change agenda that the companies wish to propose will be known in full and then addressed appropriately through the respective machineries in each of the companies.

"I am aware of your initial view of the suggested programme, but I do request that full consideration is given by the RDG and DfT to this suggested means and that you respond to this initiative next week."

It does sound reasonable and I hope the RDG engage with it.

And yes, I think Lynch/the RMT are beginning to understand that the public are accepting of a part-time railway which doesn't work some Saturdays, and are just getting on with life anyway.

 

[yorksrob]

What would help would be if someone from the Rail Delivery Group broke ranks and made it clear if/when it was being prevented from doing a deal by central government.

The organisation comes across as being a Government lapdog.