Royal Mail discussion

[telstarbox]

In the current strikes Royal Mail claim that they are losing £1m per day due to current working practices. Fewer letters are being sent as more services are provided online but parcels continue to be popular.

If this is true, could one solution be to drop regular post deliveries to alternate days so half of an area has post on Monday / Wednesday / Friday and the other half on Tuesday / Thursday / Saturday? This would reduce the workload and allow fewer vans etc.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If this is true, could one solution be to drop regular post deliveries to alternate days so half of an area has post on Monday / Wednesday / Friday and the other half on Tuesday / Thursday / Saturday? This would reduce the workload and allow fewer vans etc.

Suspect that is quite possibly already happening. Sometimes Postie is nowhere to seen on certain days of the week; the next day my doormat is piled with mail (including weekly periodicals, that might normally have been expected to have been delivered the previous day).

 

[westv]

Postal strike means one less day of junk mail for a lot of people.

 

[jfollows]

In the current strikes Royal Mail claim that they are losing £1m per day due to current working practices. Fewer letters are being sent as more services are provided online but parcels continue to be popular.

If this is true, could one solution be to drop regular post deliveries to alternate days so half of an area has post on Monday / Wednesday / Friday and the other half on Tuesday / Thursday / Saturday? This would reduce the workload and allow fewer vans etc.

I think there would be legal implications to doing this because of the way the post service is described in various bits of legislation. I believe there is a legal "presumption" of service of first class mail on the second business day after posting, for example, and this would have to be unwound or modified in - maybe - several pieces of legislation if your proposal were to be implemented.
Personally I get a lot of post but little to nothing that's time-critical to me, however i send very little post, so the proposal wouldn't worry me if implemented.

 

[johncrossley]

Norway have already changed to delivering post twice or three times a week. The post in the Netherlands doesn't deliver on Mondays.

 

[Cdd89]

I have been thinking the same thing. But I’d probably go slightly more unbalanced. For example, it make sense operationally to put the most densely-urban areas on alternate-day deliveries; while dropping the most rural areas to weekly (perhaps with an option to collect from the local depot earlier).

With this change it would probably make sense to scrap the difference between first and second class stamps. And I think stamp prices should increase significantly.

 

[eMeS]

I've had a recent example where next business day delivery was necessary. A daughter using her credit card for a take-away delivery got scammed (for £600), and Barclays cancelled her card; saying that a new one would be posted to her. I posted cash to her to tide her over, and this arrived within two days - her new card took a week to arrive.

 

[jfollows]

I've had a recent example where next business day delivery was necessary. A daughter using her credit card for a take-away delivery got scammed (for £600), and Barclays cancelled her card; saying that a new one would be posted to her. I posted cash to her to tide her over, and this arrived within two days - her new card took a week to arrive.

Yes, I'd be sorry if this kind of service went away, and I've always been happy with the post service, although I know that experience varies across the country, and I know I trust the post to deliver important things to/from me on occasions and have never been let down.

 

[Lost property]

Suspect that is quite possibly already happening. Sometimes Postie is nowhere to seen on certain days of the week; the next day my doormat is piled with mail (including weekly periodicals, that might normally have been expected to have been delivered the previous day).

I would suggest your suspicions are well founded based on my own locality (urban) when, for some time now, the absence of vans / postie's has been noticeable along with delivery times varying between 08.00 and 16.30 hrs.

I support the strike but, equally, at times over the years, it's been difficult to distinguish who has been the more obdurate...R.M management or the unions.

I will say however, that, when it comes to next day delivery, the Post Office has always provided the service as advertised. For the poster who mentioned the card, to be fair, Barclays do say a card will be delivered within five working days and I don't recall ever being offered a next day delivery option.

 

[johncrossley]

I've had a recent example where next business day delivery was necessary.

I presume guaranteed next day delivery would still be available.

 

[jfollows]

I presume guaranteed next day delivery would still be available.

I'd assume so, for which the sender has to pay appropriately, but it's the next-but-one day delivery which can be assumed with first class post that would no longer be possible.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The problem is it is the start of a slippery slope - alternate days then becomes every three days, then four, then weekly. That is how a profit driven private business works. Always work to reduce your service (costs) whilst increasing income (prices), provide the most minimal service you can get away with, cut corners here and there where you won't get found out eg miss a round once per week. Then there is the issue of a missed round which would double the delivery time once again (from daily to alternate days to every fourth day). For example, I subscibe to Private Eye, it is due on alternate Wednesdays. Alternate deliveries would make that possibly Thursday, and a missed round (or delayed due to excessive volume on the Thursday) would make that Saturday. As it stands, today I am waiting (but not expecting to arrive) the edition due last Wednesday.

Not everyone can so easily 'collect from their nearest local office'. There was a time when such places were at the Head Post Office, in a town centre. Mine is beyond reasonable walking distance and situated on the A50 dual carriageway. It would require two buses each way, running every 30 minutes and requiring a day ticket costing £4.50 (I think, haven't bought one since March 2020).

Companies and the government would have to factor in the delays in all their processes. In many cases papers served are 'assumed to arrive the next working day' and your time to respond is based on that (false) assumption.

 

[Dai Corner]

Personally, the only post I get which is time-critical is birthday cards. Some senders are ultra-organised and send them to arrive a week or more in advance and others forget until the the actual day and are inevitably late. I keep the latter until they've all arrived and have a secondary birthday

Oh, and my subscription copies of Private Eye. I don't know why they don't email me a QR code I can use to collect them in a shop.

I'd be quite happy to have a less frequent Royal Mail delivery service, particularly if it kept the cost down.

 

[Phil56]

It already happens for "normal" post. In our village, we NEVER have normal post on Thursdays. The van comes round to deliver the next day/special letters and parcels, but there's no "door to door" delivery for normal letters etc. It's been like that here for a few years now.

 

[judethegreat]

It already happens for "normal" post. In our village, we NEVER have normal post on Thursdays. The van comes round to deliver the next day/special letters and parcels, but there's no "door to door" delivery for normal letters etc. It's been like that here for a few years now.

Possibly that could work, while there is no competition for letters, but if daily delivery is not retained for parcels/packets, Royal Mail instantly becomes less attractive than other courier firms. However, would any reduction in days for any part of the service not have a detrimental effect on usage, regardless of what direct competition is currently available?

Edit - actually there could be benefits in less usage, like people go back to using shops for their magazines etc, less packaging... Maybe combined with subscriptions like the above suggestion re QR codes?

 

[Dai Corner]

Possibly that could work, while there is no competition for letters, but if next day delivery is not retained for parcels/packets, Royal Mail instantly becomes less attractive than other courier firms. However, would any reduction in days for any part of the service not have a detrimental effect on usage, regardless of what direct competition is currently available?

Maybe they could only deliver ordinary letters if there was something with a guaranteed delivery date for the same area or if a certain number of days had passed since the previous delivery?

 

[Cdd89]

For example, I subscibe to Private Eye, it is due on alternate Wednesdays. Alternate deliveries would make that possibly Thursday, and a missed round (or delayed due to excessive volume on the Thursday) would make that Saturday.

Alternatively, a digital subscription would have it with you on day 1.

The postal system is treated as an essential service (which 30 years ago it absolutely was) when, with modern technology, all the “essential” uses have (or could have) died out.

 

[DelayRepay]

Around here, we don't get post every day. We'll go a day or two with nothing, then get a pile of letters and leaflets. The postman said it's because of staff shortages - they are rotating the postmen between rounds because there aren't enough people to cover all the rounds at the moment. I noticed this during Covid, when it was understandable due to sickness but it never seems to have recovered.

One solution might be to keep daily deliveries for businesses (or just businesses who have a need to receive daily post, I doubt my local corner shop does!) and work on the basis that deliveries to residential addresses are always treated as second class.

 

[judethegreat]

Maybe they could only deliver ordinary letters if there was something with a guaranteed delivery date for the same area or if a certain number of days had passed since the previous delivery?

Maybe, but i suspect most people would prefer to know when to expect stuff, i.e. set days.

 

[Cdd89]

One solution might be to keep daily deliveries for businesses (or just businesses who have a need to receive daily post)

Do you have any examples of businesses that need to receive daily post, and have no other alternatives? I’m thinking it must be a tiny minority.

While we’re rationalising the postal system, I’d suggest dramatically reducing the number of post boxes in urban areas.

 

[judethegreat]

While we’re rationalising the postal system, I’d suggest dramatically reducing the number of post boxes in urban areas.

I think most boxes are now emptied by the same person who delivers in that area, round here atleast (urban)...one reason they each have their own van now, and also most boxes are only emptied in the mornings. Only the very few with later collections still require a separate trip out to them.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

While we’re rationalising the postal system, I’d suggest dramatically reducing the number of post boxes in urban areas.

Vast majority of postboxes in my area state that they only have collection of items if they've been posted before 9 a.m. (midweek) or before 7 a.m. (Saturdays).

 

[DelayRepay]

Do you have any examples of businesses that need to receive daily post, and have no other alternatives? I’m thinking it must be a tiny minority.

Solicitors firms and courts (I accept courts are not strictly a 'business'). Although I imagine a lot of their paperwork is electronic nowadays.

Big firms like banks need to receive post daily so they don't end up with staff sat idle one day, then having too much work the next. But this is academic as really big firms have their post delivered by a van anyway, not the normal postman (and often the post is not actually delivered to the address on the envelope).

While we’re rationalising the postal system, I’d suggest dramatically reducing the number of post boxes in urban areas.

And rural areas. There are three within a five minute walk of my house, even though we're a small village. Just having one at the Post Office would be fine.

Vast majority of postboxes in my area state that they only have collection of items if they've been posted before 9 a.m. (midweek) or before 7 a.m. (Saturdays).

Mine say that - what it means in reality is that it can be emptied any time after 9am, so if you post during the day there's no guarantee that your item will be collected that day. I remember when they used to have a little metal '1' and '2' sign that the postman would change to indicate when the next collection was.

 

[DoubleLemon]

M

In the current strikes Royal Mail claim that they are losing £1m per day due to current working practices. Fewer letters are being sent as more services are provided online but parcels continue to be popular.

If this is true, could one solution be to drop regular post deliveries to alternate days so half of an area has post on Monday / Wednesday / Friday and the other half on Tuesday / Thursday / Saturday? This would reduce the workload and allow fewer vans etc.

My place is at the start of a route. We get delivery's every other day as they start at one end then the other on alternative days.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I remember when they used to have a little metal '1' and '2' sign that the postman would change to indicate when the next collection was.

At postboxes where the post collections are just the once daily, use of the "Next Collection" plates that state 'MON', 'TUE', 'WED', 'THU', 'FRI', or 'SAT' (as the case may be), at least lets you know where you are. Most towns do, however, still have one postbox with a later collection time, often the one outside the town's Post Office.

 

[Enthusiast]

I think there would be legal implications to doing this because of the way the post service is described in various bits of legislation. I believe there is a legal "presumption" of service of first class mail on the second business day after posting, for example, and this would have to be unwound or modified in - maybe - several pieces of legislation if your proposal were to be implemented.
Personally I get a lot of post but little to nothing that's time-critical to me, however i send very little post, so the proposal wouldn't worry me if implemented.

In fact, the "Interpretation Act" (which specifies service by post) does not mention specific timescales. It says this (Section 7):

"...the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post."

Interpretation Act 1978

An Act to consolidate the Interpretation Act 1889 and certain other enactments relating to the construction and operation of Acts of Parliament and other instruments, with amendments to give effect to recommendations of the Law Commission and the Scottish Law Commission.

www.legislation.gov.uk

The "ordinary course of the post" has been interpreted by the courts as two working days. But if the "ordinary course of the post" was extended to (say) three days, the Interpretation Act would still be sufficient as it stands.

 

[Lucan]

if daily delivery is not retained for parcels/packets, Royal Mail instantly becomes less attractive than other courier firms

I find the other courier firms very unattractive. I have constant problems receiving parcels through them. They are often unable to find me, or leave parcels out in the rain despite my having a shetered porch. I have never seen the same courier driver twice so they never learn where I live, or learn the difference between my main and side gates - they have dropped parcels over the latter (6ft drop) a few times. OTOH, the regular Royal Mail postman has been coming for years and is actually able to find me, my mail box and my porch. I have had to spend hours on the phone with Hermes (now EVRI) trying to sort out the problems they cause. They save the sender a few pence compared with RM, I gather.

The postal system is treated as an essential service (which 30 years ago it absolutely was) when, with modern technology, all the “essential” uses have (or could have) died out

You are forgetting parcels, I receive a lot via the postal system. Teleporting has not been invented yet.

Postal strike means one less day of junk mail for a lot of people.

I don't get much junk mail these days, perhaps one or two items per month. It has mostly moved on-line (and increased by orders of magnitude in the process).

 

[judethegreat]

I find the other courier firms very unattractive. I have constant problems receiving parcels through them. They are often unable to find me, or leave parcels out in the rain despite my having a shetered porch. I have never seen the same courier driver twice so they never learn where I live, or learn the difference between my main and side gates - they have dropped parcels over the latter (6ft drop) a few times. OTOH, the regular Royal Mail postman has been coming for years and is actually able to find me, my mail box and my porch. I have had to spend hours on the phone with Hermes (now EVRI) trying to sort out the problems they cause. They save the sender a few pence compared with RM, I gather.


You are forgetting parcels, I receive a lot via the postal system. Teleporting has not been invented yet.


I don't get much junk mail these days, perhaps one or two items per month. It has mostly moved on-line (and increased by orders of magnitude in the process).

Agree with every word of that, both intellectually and experiencially.

DPD though do seem ok; regular driver, and they actually offer their staff the option to be properly employed which will make a huge difference. I think the others (evri certainly) all use the "self employed" model, where i'd guess they are paid per parcel rather than an hourly rate, which probably translates into being paid under minimum wage for the amount of time it would take to deliver everything safely and responsibly, hence they are always in a crazy rush, like repeatedly leaving a jiffy bag containing £50 worth of goods sticking out of the letterbox without even knocking, and claiming it was delivered through the letterbox... But then the relief postman (not the regular one, who is good) left a hundred quid's worth on the doorstep last week.

Not into any driving job being paid per drop rather than hourly, as it can lead to dangerous driving. Was doing Deliveroo (cycling) when they shifted to that model, and refused to go on it.

Anyway, off topic...

 

[GusB]

I'm skeptical about claims that Royal Mail are losing £1m a day when they continue to post record profits. Perhaps a reduction in CEO salary should be implemented before they attack the terms and conditions of the front-line staff.

 

[johncrossley]

I try to avoid having any parcels delivered to home, even though I'm home most of the time. I generally use Amazon lockers or collections from stores. Most eBay items can be collected from Argos stores, including some inside Sainsbury's.