Royal Mail to cease using trains

[Steve Harris]

Do the 325's still have DC shoes? I'm guessing not - if so, is it a case of just replacing them?

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-325s-working-again-on-third-rail.270076/#post-6833454

 

[D365]

But if 15 4-car units can be replaced with only the creation of "30 full-time driving jobs"..... I do question how intensively the fleet is actually operating.

To that question, I get answers that seem to vary based on who [and why] I ask.

 

[Stampy]

This is the bloke who wants to take over Royal Mail....

Billionaire Royal Mail buyer vows to keep 6-day service


Basically forcing the staff to by sell ALL their shares in the company BACK to him, and then "possibly" be involved in any profits the company make from then on...

 

[Adrian Barr]

But if 15 4-car units can be replaced with only the creation of "30 full-time driving jobs"..... I do question how intensively the fleet is actually operating.

To that question, I get answers that seem to vary based on who [and why] I ask.

The current Royal Mail Class 325 operations are not especially intensive or extensive. 9 units are required in traffic MSX. Given the modest amount of services operated and units needed, it seems quite conceivable that another operator (like Varamis) could take on these workings *if* they can offer a competitive price compared to road haulage. The original announcement from Royal Mail makes it sound like the main concern was to avoid the costs associated with owning and maintaining their own fleet, rather than a desire to end the use of rail entirely.

Current daily class 325 workings for reference:

3 units, start and finish Mossend
1M36 08:34 MSX Shieldmuir - Daventry
1S05 15:34 MSX Daventry - Shieldmuir

2 units, start Willesden, finish Mossend
1S24 12:26 MSX Willesden - Shieldmuir

2 units, start Mossend, finish Willesden
1M27 12:35 MSX Shieldmuir - Willesden

2 units, start and finish Mossend
1M55 14:19 SX Shieldmuir - Daventry
1S55 20:44 SX Daventry - Shieldmuir

There are WTT maintenance moves from Willesden to Crewe Electric Depot which run as required:
5K07 00:22 MTX Willesden - Crewe
5A05 06:45 MSX Crewe - Willesden

A weekly maintenance move from Mossend also runs:
5M31 06:07 SO Mossend - Crewe
5S02 07:07 MO Crewe - Mossend

 

[Grumpy]

The current Royal Mail Class 325 operations are not especially intensive or extensive.

To be fair the 325 operations were planned to carry letters in trays in manual roll on/off wheeled containers.
Royal Mail probably only has half the letters business it had when the 325's were bought with consequently less use for the 325's.
I believe the business is now more parcels focussed and and wonder if this might be better handled by carriages more suitable for side loading of pallets

 

[Adrian Barr]

I believe the business is now more parcels focussed and and wonder if this might be better handled by carriages more suitable for side loading of pallets

Your post (not intended to be a pun) got me wondering what equipment Royal Mail use for parcels traffic, for example on the Daventry trains from their West Midlands hub.

There's some good footage of 325 operations in this YouTube video from 2011, when GBRF were operating the mail services. The video starts with 325s being serviced at Wembley carriage depot alongside Pendolinos, and there are scenes at Willesden PRDC, Warrington Dallam and Shieldmuir:

Video: Mail Train | Channel: Darren Cafferty

One thing I notice around the 2 min mark (footage from inside Willesden PRDC) is fork lift trucks moving things resembling these heavy-duty parcel cages, which have a base of 1000x1200mm matching the size of a pallet: https://palletower.com/parcel-cages/heavy-duty-parcelcage/
I think those must have been for internal use only on site.

I found this obscure 2023 page on a Royal Mail website, talking about the use of "sleeved Yorks" for small parcels, where instead of conveying trays of letters, the York is given plastic sides so the whole internal volume can be used for small parcels. The attached video is rather comical, the best part being the appearance of the amazing high-tech "slider tool" after the first minute or so:
https://www.royalmailwholesale.com/news/update-on-sleeved-yorks

The original York Roll Containers designed for letter trays have a base of 670 x 850 mm. I was comparing that to the equipment seen on the Varamis website for their Birmingham International service. In the slideshow of pictures on the main page, you can see a roll cage with six wheels similar to this one, which has a base of 800 x 2000mm. Both the York and this have a similar weight capacity of 500kg:
https://palletower.com/roll-pallets...ur-sided-super-jumbo-demountable-roll-pallet/

For a European comparison, DHL use some fairly heavy duty parcel cages : https://www.wanzl.com/en_DE/references/deutsche-post-d~s2492
A PDF on the same website shows similar equipment with a base area of either 1200x800 or 1200x1000, and a capacity of 750kg. They appear to be designed for both manual movement and also for being hooked-up into trains of up to five for movement by electric tug, like the good old days of BRUTEs! In the Royal Mail video at 4:55 they have a different approach, where there is a tug that can carry several Yorks loaded into it and carry them rather than towing them.

All these types of equipment are effectively "pallets on wheels" and are probably more suitable for general parcels traffic than literal pallets which have to be moved around by forklift. I think if you needed to access a rail vehicle with a forklift to position pallets you would need very wide level access, something more like a sliding wall Cargowaggon (which Royal Mail have used for Christmas traffic in previous years) than a typical parcels vehicle based on a passenger coach or EMU.

I wonder what the maximum weight is that can be safely wheeled around manually, especially up a ramp into an EMU, and also what the door widths are on the 325s and 321s? When the mail trains served York, I vaguely remember they had some sort of special ramp (in two stages with a turntable between if I remember correctly) that reduced the steepness of the ramp from platform to train level for the loading of Yorks. I think they needed it because the platforms on regular stations are lower than the ones in the purpose-built Royal Mail platforms (which appear to give level access to the 325s in the video).

 

[Egg Centric]

This is the bloke who wants to take over Royal Mail....

Billionaire Royal Mail buyer vows to keep 6-day service


Basically forcing the staff to by sell ALL their shares in the company BACK to him, and then "possibly" be involved in any profits the company make from then on...

Isn't this - beyond the emotive language - just what happens when you take a listed company private?

 

[fishwomp]

Isn't this - beyond the emotive language - just what happens when you take a listed company private?

Missed out the bit where the staff are forced to sell at MORE than the price they would be getting if there wasn't a takeover? or forced to get diddly squat if it goes bust? Nothing actually unusual in this..

 

[dan5324]

Not sure why this is a surprise to some. The fact is roads are everywhere rail is not. All freight will have touch the road network at some point. It’s more convenient and cost effective to just keep it to one vehicle on the road. Similar to how it’s usually better to travel by car than it is by train. The railways are falling out favour with people from all persuasions.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Not sure why this is a surprise to some. The fact is roads are everywhere rail is not. All freight will have touch the road network at some point. It’s more convenient and cost effective to just keep it to one vehicle on the road. Similar to how it’s usually better to travel by car than it is by train. The railways are falling out favour with people from all persuasions.

A Royal Mail train made up of 3 Class 325 units has 12 carriages and can carry 708 roll cages known colloquially as Yorks.
A double-deck lorry can hold a maximum of 98 Yorks. To carry those Yorks between - for example - London and Glasgow would need at least 8 lorries to convey the same number of cages. To comply with driving regulations, you’d need 16 drivers and a place for the changeover to take place. When comparing cost and efficiency of rail vs road, these factors also need to be considered

 

[JamesT]

A Royal Mail train made up of 3 Class 325 units has 12 carriages and can carry 708 roll cages known colloquially as Yorks.
A double-deck lorry can hold a maximum of 98 Yorks. To carry those Yorks between - for example - London and Glasgow would need at least 8 lorries to convey the same number of cages. To comply with driving regulations, you’d need 16 drivers and a place for the changeover to take place. When comparing cost and efficiency of rail vs road, these factors also need to be considered

Though as noted in a previous post on this thread, when you have a lorry-load you can send it off immediately, whereas the train would still be waiting. So there are efficiencies in the sorting offices from having smaller but more frequent loads delivered.

 

[sh24]

Though as noted in a previous post on this thread, when you have a lorry-load you can send it off immediately, whereas the train would still be waiting. So there are efficiencies in the sorting offices from having smaller but more frequent loads delivered.

Also those trucks can have different origins and destination, potentially chopping out other links in the chain. Rail works well for very high volumes of move on a specific route but isn't an easy fit into a normal courier/post network.

 

[SECR263]

Perhaps if Articulated lorries and 8 wheel rigids paid a more realistic road excise duty, some of the apparent cheapness of lorries would dissappear. Damage to roads is more down to lorries than cars. Perhaps foreign lorries should pay a sum per visit. Just a thought.

 

[Sputnik89]

Perhaps if Articulated lorries and 8 wheel rigids paid a more realistic road excise duty, some of the apparent cheapness of lorries would dissappear. Damage to roads is more down to lorries than cars. Perhaps foreign lorries should pay a sum per visit. Just a thought.

The HGV Road User Levy (distinct from VED) is paid by foreign trucks as well as domestic

 

[Deafdoggie]

A Royal Mail train made up of 3 Class 325 units has 12 carriages and can carry 708 roll cages known colloquially as Yorks.
A double-deck lorry can hold a maximum of 98 Yorks. To carry those Yorks between - for example - London and Glasgow would need at least 8 lorries to convey the same number of cages. To comply with driving regulations, you’d need 16 drivers and a place for the changeover to take place. When comparing cost and efficiency of rail vs road, these factors also need to be considered

Train drivers are paid a lot more than lorry drivers. Every York on a train has to go to the same place. The train has to wait for all the Yorks to be loaded. There are many advantages to road.

 

[Broucek]

Isn't this - beyond the emotive language - just what happens when you take a listed company private?

Yes, exactly. ALL shareholders will have a vote on the deal and usually 75% support is needed at which point all shares are sold at the agreed price. No conspiracy.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Both rail and Royal Mail lorry departures are done to a schedule. The lorry can’t ‘go as soon as it is fully loaded’ if the driver booked to drive it doesn’t start work for three hours! The same way a train booked to run on a path at 12:21 can’t leave 2 hours early, even if it is full.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Both rail and Royal Mail lorry departures are done to a schedule. The lorry can’t ‘go as soon as it is fully loaded’ if the driver booked to drive it doesn’t start work for three hours! The same way a train booked to run on a path at 12:21 can’t leave 2 hours early, even if it is full.

Nonsense, lorry drivers can work 15 hours a day and can go whenever they are needed. There is no waiting around for drivers, just drivers waiting for their load to be ready.

 

[RT4038]

Both rail and Royal Mail lorry departures are done to a schedule. The lorry can’t ‘go as soon as it is fully loaded’ if the driver booked to drive it doesn’t start work for three hours! The same way a train booked to run on a path at 12:21 can’t leave 2 hours early, even if it is full.

Well yes, but multiple lorries can be scheduled to depart at spread out times (when they are each likely to get full), rather than them all waiting for a trainload and departing at the same time?

 

[Deafdoggie]

Both rail and Royal Mail lorry departures are done to a schedule. The lorry can’t ‘go as soon as it is fully loaded’ if the driver booked to drive it doesn’t start work for three hours! The same way a train booked to run on a path at 12:21 can’t leave 2 hours early, even if it is full.

If the driver has driven a load in, they only need a 15 minute break before they can head back out. Obviously they'll usually take longer and they'll need to stop for another break en-route if they did only have 15, but it gets the load moving and on its way, and potentially to a drop-off point.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Nonsense, lorry drivers can work 15 hours a day and can go whenever they are needed. There is no waiting around for drivers, just drivers waiting for their load to be ready.

We are talking specifically about Royal Mail in this thread. I can assure you, drivers in RM distribution centres do most definitely have specific duty times, all designed carefully to fit in with driving hours regulations, and duties designed to maximise onward connections, to ensure Mail for distant hubs and delivery offices connects.
If my manager let a lorry leave 3 hours early, packed with Tracked 48 parcels (akin to 2nd class packets) and the higher priority Tracked 24 (1st Class) that came in on other lorries after the premature departure missed all its connections, he’d be in for disciplinary action, up to and including a charge of ‘wilful delay of the mail’

 

[Merle Haggard]

I recall a television documentary, around 2000, covering the last mail train to run, one to Dover. The cameraman was accompanied by the then chief of Royal Mail, Mr. Adam Crozier, who memorably gave the reason for abandoning rail as 'the only change that the railways have made since Victorian times is they've got rid of gas lamps' - a statement slightly undermined by it being made over a view of the class 67's digital speedo showing '100.0 m.p.h.'. To make such a sweeping criticism, Mr Crozier obviously had a deep understanding of someone else's business, but watching him giving evidence at the Horizon enquiry and being questioned about his (then) own business, and his level of knowledge thereof, suggested his focus would have been better directed internally in my opinion...
For a long time after the introduction of road drivers' hours and other road operation legislation the Post Office was exempt. This was still the case to my knowledge in the 1980s - does anyone know the present situation, or when it changed?

 

[Deafdoggie]

We are talking specifically about Royal Mail in this thread. I can assure you, drivers in RM distribution centres do most definitely have specific duty times, all designed carefully to fit in with driving hours regulations, and duties designed to maximise onward connections, to ensure Mail for distant hubs and delivery offices connects.
If my manager let a lorry leave 3 hours early, packed with Tracked 48 parcels (akin to 2nd class packets) and the higher priority Tracked 24 (1st Class) that came in on other lorries after the premature departure missed all its connections, he’d be in for disciplinary action, up to and including a charge of ‘wilful delay of the mail’

No one is suggesting the lorries run randomly. Just there is much more flexibility if things go pear shaped.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

No one is suggesting the lorries run randomly. Just there is much more flexibility if things go pear shaped.

And much more inflexibility if the lorry is on a motorway and there’s a major accident. No way off between junctions.
The RM trains are able to use an alternate route via the ECML when, for example, there was flooding at Carlisle or a dewirement elsewhere on the WCML

 

[Donny Dave]

Just a quick note about lorry drivers hours here....

Yes, they can work upto 15 hours a day, but that is permitted only twice a week. Out of that 15 hours, they can only drive for 9 hours (10 hours twice a week), and must have a 45 minute break for every 4 and a half hours driven.

 

[Lewisham2221]

And much more inflexibility if the lorry is on a motorway and there’s a major accident. No way off between junctions.
The RM trains are able to use an alternate route via the ECML when, for example, there was flooding at Carlisle or a dewirement elsewhere on the WCML

What a load of nonsense. A lorry is far more flexible for diverting away from disruption than a train is. For starters, the driver doesn't need any specific route knowledge and the lorry doesn't need to be specifically cleared to use any particular road. Diverting a train via the ECML due to flooding on the ECML at Carlisle would require hours of prior notice. Hardly comparable with a lorry being stuck in accident related congestion.

 

[Deafdoggie]

And much more inflexibility if the lorry is on a motorway and there’s a major accident. No way off between junctions.
The RM trains are able to use an alternate route via the ECML when, for example, there was flooding at Carlisle or a dewirement elsewhere on the WCML

That's the funniest thing anyone has written on these forums

Lorries are so much more flexible, particularly at short notice, when things go wrong. Should one get stuck on a motorway the others will divert, they are not all stuck there like a whole trainload would be.

Just a quick note about lorry drivers hours here....

Yes, they can work upto 15 hours a day, but that is permitted only twice a week. Out of that 15 hours, they can only drive for 9 hours (10 hours twice a week), and must have a 45 minute break for every 4 and a half hours driven.

But the break can be split into 2, as long as the second one is at least thirty minutes. So there is a lot of flexibility, particularly when things go wrong.

 

[En]

And much more inflexibility if the lorry is on a motorway and there’s a major accident. No way off between junctions.
The RM trains are able to use an alternate route via the ECML when, for example, there was flooding at Carlisle or a dewirement elsewhere on the WCML

someone nominate this poster for an Eddie / Perrier comedy award as that is a hilarious statement

 

[bahnause]

Lorries are so much more flexible, particularly at short notice, when things go wrong. Should one get stuck on a motorway the others will divert, they are not all stuck there like a whole trainload would be.

Interestingly, the last thing a modern postal service with distribution centers supplied by rail, as in Switzerland, needs is flexibility. Punctuality is crucial in these closely interlinked processes, and neither late nor early delivery is helpful. This is why the postal trains are closely monitored and enjoy a high priority.

 

[dan5324]

Freight trains always get the lowest priority pathing. We’ll all know that. That’ll never change. If the line is blocked. Mail is going nowhere. If the motorway is blocked, the truck simply comes off at the best junction and follows the highways England diversion.