Rules of carrying firearms and other weapons on the train

[thenorthern]

After another very sad and tragic massacre in the United States the US President Barack Obama is again pressing for gun control in the US. While looking at rules for carrying Firearms on Amtrak the rules state that guns must be carried in the checked luggage (similar to that on airliners) and not in the coach of the train.

Anyhow I was wondering what the rules are for carrying guns on the train in the United Kingdom. I am aware that in the United Kingdom it is very very rare that anyone carries firearms in any public place however I was wondering if there are any by-laws preventing people from carrying firearms or air guns on trains? Also are there any by-laws about carrying knives on trains or does the standard anything other than a 3 inches or less pocket knife is a prohibited weapon without a valid reason law apply?

I am not planning on taking a weapon on the train and I am aware that as there is a complete ban on Handguns in Great Britain and for security reasons most licensed gun owners would rather carry guns by car but I was just curious if there is a ban on taking weapons on the train.

 

[najaB]

Anyhow I was wondering what the rules are for carrying guns on the train in the United Kingdom. I am aware that in the United Kingdom it is very very rare that anyone carries firearms in any public place however I was wondering if there are any by-laws preventing people from carrying firearms or air guns on trains? Also are there any by-laws about carrying knives on trains or does the standard anything other than a 3 inches or less pocket knife is a prohibited weapon without a valid reason law apply?

I think this covers it:

2. Potentially dangerous items
(1) Except with written permission from an Operator or an authorised person, no person shall bring with him or allow to remain on the railway any item which, in the opinion of an authorised person, may threaten, annoy, soil or damage any person or any property.

Other, non-railway specific, rules would apply as well.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

The most common occurrence is probably on the Caledonian Sleeper. Their Guests Charter (sic) mentions the conditions of carriage:

8.4
Firearms
If you want to carry firearms or ammunition you
must tell our Guest Services Centre when you
book. You will have to get written authority from
our Guest Services Centre and carry this with you,
along with an up-to-date firearms certificate. You
must have your own cabin or share a cabin with a
person you know.

 

[CallySleeper]

The most common occurrence is probably on the Caledonian Sleeper. Their Guests Charter (sic) mentions the conditions of carriage:

The question is, would this work out cheaper than buying solo supplements??

 

[Bletchleyite]

The question is, would this work out cheaper than buying solo supplements??

I expect the implication is that the solo cabin must be paid for at the passenger's cost, not that it will be free because they happen to be carrying guns.

 

[thenorthern]

Generally most British people don't seem to feel the need to carry weapons for protection compared to the United States which is why there is never really a problem.

 

[33EJB]

You could be carrying them for a shooting trip - ie grouse, pheasant, dear, clay pigeon shooting etc.

Providing you declare them to the operator it shouldn't be a problem. I mean you can wander around an airport with one so i don't see a train being any different. Obviously in compliance with general laws for carrying a firearm in a public place it has to be in a case, not just slung over your arm, most operators will at the very least expect you to be discrete so as not to alarm other passengers.

So declare it when you buy your ticket and the operator will tell you their requirements for them. My employer allows them providing they're declared and the documentation is checked before boarding.

 

[jopsuk]

Generally most British people don't seem to feel the need to carry weapons for protection compared to the United States which is why there is never really a problem.

"carrying a weapon for protection" is highly illegal in the UK. If one were found to be carrying a legally-owned firearm "for protection" one would almost certainly have ones licence revoked and probably prosecuted for a firearms offence.

 

[najaB]

Generally most British people don't seem to feel the need to carry weapons for protection compared to the United States which is why there is never really a problem.

Largely because there aren't nearly as many armed people to feel the need to protect yourself from!

 

[Be3G]

You could be carrying them for a shooting trip - ie grouse, pheasant, dear, clay pigeon shooting etc.

I agree, pheasant is dear. The price of it in the shops is laughable.

Turning off ‘facetious mode’ though, yes, I am led to believe that this is the main reason someone might wish to take firearms on the sleeper.

(P.S. Pheasant is very tasty.)

 

[thenorthern]

"carrying a weapon for protection" is highly illegal in the UK. If one were found to be carrying a legally-owned firearm "for protection" one would almost certainly have ones licence revoked and probably prosecuted for a firearms offence.

Except in Northern Ireland although if one was that concerned they were carrying a gun for self defence I doubt they would be using the train or other public transport.

(P.S. Pheasant is very tasty.)

I wouldn't know I am Vegetarian.

 

[jopsuk]

Except in Northern Ireland although if one was that concerned they were carrying a gun for self defence I doubt they would be using the train or other public transport.

And they'll have a specific licence issued by PSNI for that purpose- most legal firearms owners in NI don't have those licences. NI of course still has an awful lot of illegaly held firearms around.

 

[thenorthern]

According to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Items permitted at the discretion of individual Train Companies, for which a fee may be payable

Unloaded guns

Items that are not permitted

Loaded guns and firearms

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf

According to the Conditions of Carriage as well Dangerous goods; inflammable liquids; explosives are banned which may include ammunition but I am not sure.

There is no mention of knives so I think the Criminal Justice Act 1988 applies in the case of knives.

 

[Oswyntail]

Would any of this also apply to bows and arrows? The standard type of bow dismantles for carrying, so is no threat to anyone; a longbow can be strung in seconds, but still not fast enough to be a threat. However, a compound (think "Deliverance") is ready to shoot. Arrows are also fairly sharp, and are often passed under the "reasonable excuse" law. However, if an "authorised person", ignorant of the equipment, decided against my expert advice that it was unsafe, could carriage reasonably be refused?
[Some airlines flatly refuse to take bows and arrows, even in the hold]

 

[furnessvale]

According to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.



According to the Conditions of Carriage as well Dangerous goods; inflammable liquids; explosives are banned which may include ammunition but I am not sure.

There is no mention of knives so I think the Criminal Justice Act 1988 applies in the case of knives.

Given that LOADED guns are not permitted in public places by the law of the land, never mind Conditions of Carriage, it seems a pretty pointless restriction.

The railways may as well ban the possession of a loaded machine gun or a nuclear bomb while they are at it.

Incidentally the law of the land bans the possession of a section one firearm together with ammunition to fit it, in a public place i.e. firearm in hand but bullets in pocket of same person.

 

[OneOffDave]

I've usually come into Euston at the same time as one of the Scottish sleepers and I've seen a couple of people getting off the train with what are most probably gun cases. Given the train, the time of year and the clothing of the people it didn't surprise me at all.

 

[furnessvale]

I've usually come into Euston at the same time as one of the Scottish sleepers and I've seen a couple of people getting off the train with what are most probably gun cases. Given the train, the time of year and the clothing of the people it didn't surprise me at all.

Yes, probably 12 bore so not section one firearms.

Legal for one person to carry weapon AND matching ammunition but not loaded.

 

[misterredmist]

Yes, probably 12 bore so not section one firearms.

Legal for one person to carry weapon AND matching ammunition but not loaded.

I'd have thought 12 bores would have been on the PULL !!! MAN ......


ok, sorry.....

 

[edwin_m]

I wouldn't know I am Vegetarian.

Vegetables are easier targets - they don't move around.

 

[furnessvale]

Vegetables are easier targets - they don't move around.

You've obviously not seen the "Little Shop of Horrors".

 

[Townsend Hook]

Yes, probably 12 bore so not section one firearms.

What about rifles for deer stalking? There doesn't seem to be any distinction in the rail regulations at least for carrying section one firearms vs shotguns.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Would any of this also apply to bows and arrows? The standard type of bow dismantles for carrying, so is no threat to anyone; a longbow can be strung in seconds, but still not fast enough to be a threat. However, a compound (think "Deliverance") is ready to shoot. Arrows are also fairly sharp, and are often passed under the "reasonable excuse" law. However, if an "authorised person", ignorant of the equipment, decided against my expert advice that it was unsafe, could carriage reasonably be refused?
[Some airlines flatly refuse to take bows and arrows, even in the hold]

I can just imagine (the real) Robin Hood trying to board a train in this day and age, he'd be stopped for carrying his bow and arrow for firing "practice" in Barnsdale.

 

[unlevel42]

During the Irish Civil War in the early 1920s family tradition says that my grandfather had a licence for a shotgun that firemen carried on the Irish Mail between Crewe and Holyhead.

As GB was supplying arms and advice to the Free State National Army/IRA at this time as well as assassinations by anti-treaty IRA there might be some truth in it.

 

[thenorthern]

I can just imagine (the real) Robin Hood trying to board a train in this day and age, he'd be stopped for carrying his bow and arrow for firing "practice" in Barnsdale.

And he would have an interesting time visiting parts of the Sherwood Forest such as Mansfield and St Annes......

 

[furnessvale]

What about rifles for deer stalking? There doesn't seem to be any distinction in the rail regulations at least for carrying section one firearms vs shotguns.

Yes, it would seem to be perfectly possible to carry a rifle, but of course the law of the land prohibits the same person from being in possession of ammunition to fit it.

 

[Stigy]

I'm not a gun expert, far from it in fact, but I guess most people wouldn't even know if a gun was being carried if it's correctly stored in a locked case. The enforcement side of things would only really apply if the gun wasn't stored correctly in said case, much the same as travelling with one in any mode of transport. As long as it's either an air rifle or similar, or you have a current licence to hold said weapon, there should be no issue. Common sense I guess? You're obviously going to end up in hot water if you're carrying any firearm not in correct storage, even if it's only an air rifle.

 

[Bookd]

This has been a sensible discussion as to what is allowed, and (bearing in mind the recent incident in France) there must be concern about the possibility of carrying loaded weapons on trains; who, however would stop you? You could easily be carrying a live bomb in a hold all and no one would know. The only way to avoid this would be security scans on every train which would be impossible.

 

[miami]

Are supersoakers allowed? Could be very welcome on packed summer trains.

This has been a sensible discussion as to what is allowed, and (bearing in mind the recent incident in France) there must be concern about the possibility of carrying loaded weapons on trains; who, however would stop you? You could easily be carrying a live bomb in a hold all and no one would know. The only way to avoid this would be security scans on every train which would be impossible.

Impossible and unwelcome. When we were under attack every few months in the 80s and 90s we didn't attempt this. Great way to kill off the railway industry though.

Would any of this also apply to bows and arrows? The standard type of bow dismantles for carrying, so is no threat to anyone; a longbow can be strung in seconds, but still not fast enough to be a threat.

I'm sure your longbow isn't a threat, but only because you aren't a threat. If you were to want to use such a longbow, you could string it up in seconds in the toilet and suddenly it "becomes a threat".

I'm not convinced a bow and arrow is the best thing to use in close-quarters to maximise carnage though. Even Hawkeye and his unlimited supply of arrows struggles.

However "authorised person"s are often ignorant, and have their own prejudices. On the other hand your expert advice is hardly worthwhile (in the 100-million-to-one chance you were going to use it you would simply be lying. The rest of the time it wouldn't be a threat irrespective of what you said).

Is there a right to appeal? If you are carrying a toolbox with a 9" PO2 screwdriver in it a police officer would have to prove intent that it's an offensive weapon as it's not a Section 139 device (a butterknife however is). An "authorised person" presumably wouldn't, and could use it as a nice little excuse to ban you for some other reason (wrong colour skin for instance), if someone declares your set of kitchen knives you just bought from John Lewis to be "Dangerous goods".

Eurostar doesn't allow kitchen knives or screwdrivers to be carried (despite being perfectly legal in the UK), of the many reasons I usually fly if I'm going to Brussels.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

The railways may as well ban the possession of a loaded machine gun or a nuclear bomb while they are at it.

If I recall correctly, it is against the law to put a Nuclear device of any sort that is liable to detonate through the post

 

[GB]

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