Russia invades Ukraine

[gg1]

In an impressive feat of mental gymnastics, Kim Jong Un has reached the conclusion that invading a neighbouring nation and annexing parts of their territory is in fact anti imperialist:

"We will always support the decisions of President Putin and the Russian leadership... and we will be together in the fight against imperialism,"

Full quote at the 7:57 time stamp here

 

[DustyBin]

Even if they are undamaged (or aren't there) it's still a good result for Ukraine as far as the morale war goes. There will be a lot of Crimea-based Russians starting to look for property to rent in Moscow, Saint Petersburg, etc. Just in case.

Indeed, and any damage to the dry dock itself that hinders it's operation will help Ukraine. Plus the Russians know it's vulnerable which must be a worry for them.

 

[najaB]

In an impressive feat of mental gymnastics

The only kind he's ever done...

 

[Giugiaro]

"We will always support the decisions of President Putin and the Russian leadership... and we will be together in the fight against imperialism,"

It's a mentality that screams "My Empire is better than yours".

 

[edwin_m]

Ukraine have successfully hit the dry dock in Sevastopol overnight. How successfully remains to be seen, but there are videos circulating of some large explosions and fires, and the Russians have said that some missiles got through. It’s thought that there was a large landing ship and a Kilo class submarine in the dry dock but this needs confirming (only reported on social media currently). If true, and one or both have been damaged, it’s a good result for Ukraine.

Possibly the landing ship hit by a drone boat a couple of weeks ago?

 

[ainsworth74]

Possibly the landing ship hit by a drone boat a couple of weeks ago?

I believe that ended up in dry dock in Novorossiysk back on the Russian mainland, so if this latest attack has hit another landing ship then that's another one entirely I think. Wonder if it might be one of the ships that got damaged/sunk in Berdiansk early in the war when Ukraine managed to sink one landing ship and damage two others?

 

[DustyBin]

I believe that ended up in dry dock in Novorossiysk back on the Russian mainland, so if this latest attack has hit another landing ship then that's another one entirely I think. Wonder if it might be one of the ships that got damaged/sunk in Berdiansk early in the war when Ukraine managed to sink one landing ship and damage two others?

I forgot about those, but yes quite possibly.

 

[dgl]

I'm surprised Putin and Kim, after saying their pleasantries, both asked each other if they had any weapons they could have, then both of them to go "I thought you had some, that's why I came".
I bet Kim could probably get some volunteers to fight in Ukraine, the chance of a better life even if they don;t manage to escape.

 

[gingerheid]

It would not surprise me if North Korea didn't also provide some cannon fodder

 

[brad465]

This account never ceases to disappoint:

https://twitter.com/DarthPutinKGB/status/1701965647675027902

I've lost more ships to a country without a navy in a land war. I remain a master strategist.

 

[Pete_uk]

Great result that!

 

[Noddy]

I see that with almost Russian state censorship the RMT abstain from TUC "Solidarity with Ukraine" motion thread has been shut down with no explanation. I normally absolutely respect the decisions of the mods on this board but given the absolutely outlandish statements made by some contributors on this thread I have to say I’m extremely disappointed by this.

 

[najaB]

I see that with almost Russian state censorship the RMT abstain from TUC "Solidarity with Ukraine" motion thread has been shut down with no explanation. I normally absolutely respect the decisions of the mods on this board but given the absolutely outlandish statements made by some contributors on this thread I have to say I’m extremely disappointed by this.

In my experience, when threads are suddenly closed like that it means that the mods are discussing what needs to be done with the thread - which might mean splitting it into sub-threads, or removal of any flame-bait posts. I'd expect to see some moderator's red ink in the very near future.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I see that with almost Russian state censorship the RMT abstain from TUC "Solidarity with Ukraine" motion thread has been shut down with no explanation. I normally absolutely respect the decisions of the mods on this board but given the absolutely outlandish statements made by some contributors on this thread I have to say I’m extremely disappointed by this.

To add to @najaB's reply, surely Russian state censorship would be more like, making the thread disappear without a trace so no-one can even see that it was once there or read about what had happened. Leaving the thread up completely visible to all, with it also being completely visible that further replies are not currently allowed seems quite open to me!

 

[Noddy]

In my experience, when threads are suddenly closed like that it means that the mods are discussing what needs to be done with the thread - which might mean splitting it into sub-threads, or removal of any flame-bait posts. I'd expect to see some moderator's red ink in the very near future.

Fair enough but I can’t see where it’s gone particularly off thread, or any grenades have been thrown-the posters appear to genuinely believe themselves and more importantly that the RMT stance is justified.

To add to @najaB's reply, surely Russian state censorship would be more like, making the thread disappear without a trace so no-one can even see that it was once there or read about what had happened. Leaving the thread up completely visible to all, with it also being completely visible that further replies are not currently allowed seems quite open to me!

I would argue it’s China that would make it disappear, Russian just shuts down discourse when it doesn’t like where it’s heading. But ill-judged none the less and I retract it!

 

[bspahh]

This is a quote from a moderator in another thread:

We do not permit discussion of moderation decisions in threads. Please use the "contact us" form, or report a particular post if you have any issues.

 

[Edgeley]

I'm glad that there are still some old school people around like George Galloway and Mick Lynch and that the modern left hasn't been entirely co-opted by the neoliberal and neocon establishment.


This Ukraine conflict actually started back in 2014 - though you'd never guess that from listening to BBC/ITN/Sky. There was a good chance of reaching a deal before the escalation in activity eighteen months ago; our very own de Pfeffel Johnson is rumoured to have played a key role in scuppering that.

It is important to recognise that the Ukraine dispute is just another in a neocon-instigated series of wars running from Iraq through Libya and Syria. It won't be the last. If the neocons can get tens of thousands Chinese and Taiwanese killing each other, they will. And not forgetting: every war is another kerching of the till for the military-industrial complex.

 

[DustyBin]

I'm glad that there are still some old school people around like George Galloway and Mick Lynch and that the modern left hasn't been entirely co-opted by the neoliberal and neocon establishment.


This Ukraine conflict actually started back in 2014 - though you'd never guess that from listening to BBC/ITN/Sky. There was a good chance of reaching a deal before the escalation in activity eighteen months ago; our very own de Pfeffel Johnson is rumoured to have played a key role in scuppering that.

It is important to recognise that the Ukraine dispute is just another in a neocon-instigated series of wars running from Iraq through Libya and Syria. It won't be the last. If the neocons can get tens of thousands Chinese and Taiwanese killing each other, they will. And not forgetting: every war is another kerching of the till for the military-industrial complex.

So it's nothing to do with the imperialistic ambitions of a certain de facto Russian dictator then?

I'm pleased we've cleared that up!

 

[brad465]

I'm glad that there are still some old school people around like George Galloway and Mick Lynch and that the modern left hasn't been entirely co-opted by the neoliberal and neocon establishment.


This Ukraine conflict actually started back in 2014 - though you'd never guess that from listening to BBC/ITN/Sky. There was a good chance of reaching a deal before the escalation in activity eighteen months ago; our very own de Pfeffel Johnson is rumoured to have played a key role in scuppering that.

It is important to recognise that the Ukraine dispute is just another in a neocon-instigated series of wars running from Iraq through Libya and Syria. It won't be the last. If the neocons can get tens of thousands Chinese and Taiwanese killing each other, they will. And not forgetting: every war is another kerching of the till for the military-industrial complex.

The Middle East wars you refer to were no doubt stupid and reckless, both in themselves and the lack of an exit strategy, with the faults lying at the aggressors, which in these cases are the US and allies. But in Ukraine the aggressor is Russia, so they are the ones at fault, all NATO are doing this time is providing means to help Ukraine defend and retake what is internationally-recognised Ukraine territory; they're not even sending their own forces into the conflict (other than volunteers who've willingly gone to fight, often against the Gov advice of their home country).

Sensible people prefer to attack the wrongful behaviour, irrespective of who is doing it, rather than using disgust at one person/group/entity's bad actions in the past as an excuse to support another such person/group/entity's bad actions today, just because the latter happens to publicly hate the former..

 

[najaB]

I would argue it’s China that would make it disappear, Russian just shuts down discourse when it doesn’t like where it’s heading.

Stalin was known to 'unperson' his opponents/detractors from time to time:

 

[Noddy]

I'm glad that there are still some old school people around like George Galloway and Mick Lynch and that the modern left hasn't been entirely co-opted by the neoliberal and neocon establishment.


This Ukraine conflict actually started back in 2014 - though you'd never guess that from listening to BBC/ITN/Sky. There was a good chance of reaching a deal before the escalation in activity eighteen months ago; our very own de Pfeffel Johnson is rumoured to have played a key role in scuppering that.

It is important to recognise that the Ukraine dispute is just another in a neocon-instigated series of wars running from Iraq through Libya and Syria. It won't be the last. If the neocons can get tens of thousands Chinese and Taiwanese killing each other, they will. And not forgetting: every war is another kerching of the till for the military-industrial complex.

You are absolutely right to remind us the this conflict started in 2014. Can you also remind us who invaded who?

Stalin was known to 'unperson' his opponents from time to time:
View attachment 142795

Wowzers! Not seen that before!

 

[Edgeley]

So it's nothing to do with the imperialistic ambitions of a certain de facto Russian dictator then?

I'm pleased we've cleared that up!

No. The Soviet Union broke up in a largely peaceful way and Russia has previously been very tolerant of the expansion of NATO, eg in the Baltic states.

A new power is arising: BRICS+, and in the fullness of time that will lead to the decline of the American Empire.

 

[Sorcerer]

No. The Soviet Union broke up in a largely peaceful way and Russia has previously been very tolerant of the expansion of NATO, eg in the Baltic states.

Why should Russia be anything but tolerant about independent states exercising their right to join a military alliance?

 

[edwin_m]

No. The Soviet Union broke up in a largely peaceful way and Russia has previously been very tolerant of the expansion of NATO, eg in the Baltic states.

That may or may not be true, but is totally irrelevant to Ukraine.

 

[najaB]

No. The Soviet Union broke up in a largely peaceful way and Russia has previously been very tolerant of the expansion of NATO, eg in the Baltic states.

And we've always been at war with Eastasia. Oh, wait, sorry. I thought we were all rewriting history.

Russia hasn't been tolerant of NATO expansion, they have been quite vocally opposed to it but haven't been able to do anything about it. And as to the breakup and the USSR and the consequences being peaceful, ask the residents of South Ossetia or Grozny if they agree.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm glad that there are still some old school people around like George Galloway and Mick Lynch and that the modern left hasn't been entirely co-opted by the neoliberal and neocon establishment.


This Ukraine conflict actually started back in 2014 - though you'd never guess that from listening to BBC/ITN/Sky. There was a good chance of reaching a deal before the escalation in activity eighteen months ago; our very own de Pfeffel Johnson is rumoured to have played a key role in scuppering that.

It is important to recognise that the Ukraine dispute is just another in a neocon-instigated series of wars running from Iraq through Libya and Syria. It won't be the last. If the neocons can get tens of thousands Chinese and Taiwanese killing each other, they will. And not forgetting: every war is another kerching of the till for the military-industrial complex.

It's Russia that's been bombing its way through Syria.

 

[ainsworth74]

This Ukraine conflict actually started back in 2014

When Russia invaded, illegally annexed sovereign Ukrainian territory before stoking and then supporting with troops, funding and material assistance a separatist movement in the Donbass you mean? You will therefore agree that the easiest way to end the current conflict would be for Russia to withdraw from Ukraine and restore the 2014 internationally recognised borders? Yes?

 

[najaB]

And not forgetting: every war is another kerching of the till for the military-industrial complex.

Fear of war is good for business, with the need to deploy increasing numbers of more powerful weapons. Actual war rarely is, since those weapons end up being used, quite often on the people who made them.

 

[ainsworth74]

If the neocons can get tens of thousands Chinese and Taiwanese killing each other, they will.

So if China invades Taiwan that will be fault of "neocons"? How do you propose that these "neocons" prevent China invading Taiwan or is the suggestion that Xi Jinping is himself a "neocon"? Or is the issue that if Taiwan wants the tools to defend itself it should be told that it cannot have them because being able to resist Chinese aggression would cost lives? Pacifism is mandatory for the West and Western allies but only for them. Authoritarian regimes like China or Russia are not bound by the same rules? Is that correct?

 

[Edgeley]

Why should Russia be anything but tolerant about independent states exercising their right to join a military alliance?

I'm doing a thought experiment: I'm imagining that NATO has been disbanded but that the Warsaw Pact continues to exist and is expanding: how relaxed would London be if the Republic of Ireland became a Warsaw Pact member?